Bizarre Online Shopping Experience

Andrea UK · Jul 30, 2003

Tried to order a Nixvue DA Lite from the US yesterday - I'm based in the UK, and don't seem to be able to find anywhere over here that sells them. I ordered with Adorama and got an email a few hours later to say that my order is on hold and they want me to scan or fax a photocopy through of both sides of my credit card - now call me picky, but I can't help thinking that having provided my credit card details over a secure web page that faxing or emailing a picture of my credit card half way across the world is decidely INSECURE. Apart from which I havn't got access to a scanner or fax machine that has international dially (international calls on all the machines where I work are barred).

Has anybody else had this bizarre experience? I understand that B&H do this too?! I've never come across this before, and I'm concerned that it just isn't a good idea and would jeapardise the security on my card. I've written to Adorama to ask if there's any other way that they can verify my card details, though it looks as though I'm going to have to cancel my order. Which leads me back to the problem that I can't find anywhere to buy the unit over here. Everywhere I try only stocks the Nixvue vista.

Andrea.

Ken Kolda · Jul 30, 2003

I wouldn't worry about faxing an image of my card over phone lines (as long as the people on the other end are reputable). The odds that someone could intercept your call and reconstruct the fax image is so miniscule that it's not worth worrying about (heck, you hand your credit card to 16 year old cashiers/waiters all the time probably).

As for e-mail, that's dicier -- consider that the equivalent of using a non-secure web site for entering your credit info. Given the choice, fax is definitely more secure.

Ken

Andrea UK said:
Tried to order a Nixvue DA Lite from the US yesterday - I'm based
in the UK, and don't seem to be able to find anywhere over here
that sells them. I ordered with Adorama and got an email a few
hours later to say that my order is on hold and they want me to
scan or fax a photocopy through of both sides of my credit card -
now call me picky, but I can't help thinking that having provided
my credit card details over a secure web page that faxing or
emailing a picture of my credit card half way across the world is
decidely INSECURE. Apart from which I havn't got access to a
scanner or fax machine that has international dially (international
calls on all the machines where I work are barred).

Has anybody else had this bizarre experience? I understand that B&H
do this too?! I've never come across this before, and I'm concerned
that it just isn't a good idea and would jeapardise the security on
my card. I've written to Adorama to ask if there's any other way
that they can verify my card details, though it looks as though I'm
going to have to cancel my order. Which leads me back to the
problem that I can't find anywhere to buy the unit over here.
Everywhere I try only stocks the Nixvue vista.

Andrea.

Andrea UK · Jul 30, 2003

Ken Kolda said:
I wouldn't worry about faxing an image of my card over phone lines
(as long as the people on the other end are reputable). The odds
that someone could intercept your call and reconstruct the fax
image is so miniscule that it's not worth worrying about (heck, you
hand your credit card to 16 year old cashiers/waiters all the time
probably).

As for e-mail, that's dicier -- consider that the equivalent of
using a non-secure web site for entering your credit info. Given
the choice, fax is definitely more secure.

Ken

I find it strange to be asked to fax details through though.

Andrea.

Alan Smallbone · Jul 30, 2003

Hi,

My guess since you are on the other side of the pond is that they are trying to verify that you have the card in your possesion and try to remove some of the chances that it is a stolen number used over the net. They would have a tough time collecting if it was fraudulant.

Just a thought.

Alan

Andrea UK said:
Has anybody else had this bizarre experience? I understand that B&H
do this too?! I've never come across this before, and I'm concerned
that it just isn't a good idea and would jeapardise the security on
my card. I've written to Adorama to ask if there's any other way
that they can verify my card details, though it looks as though I'm
going to have to cancel my order. Which leads me back to the
problem that I can't find anywhere to buy the unit over here.
Everywhere I try only stocks the Nixvue vista.

Andrea.

Richard Bibb · Jul 30, 2003

I have had similar experiences buying in the US (I'm in the UK). Usually they ask for faxed/scanned copy of your statement though. After all if I had stolen the card faxing a picture of it wouldn't worry me too much

Alan Smallbone said:
My guess since you are on the other side of the pond is that they
are trying to verify that you have the card in your possesion and
try to remove some of the chances that it is a stolen number used
over the net. They would have a tough time collecting if it was
fraudulant.

Just a thought.

Alan

Andrea UK said:

Has anybody else had this bizarre experience? I understand that B&H
do this too?! I've never come across this before, and I'm concerned
that it just isn't a good idea and would jeapardise the security on
my card. I've written to Adorama to ask if there's any other way
that they can verify my card details, though it looks as though I'm
going to have to cancel my order. Which leads me back to the
problem that I can't find anywhere to buy the unit over here.
Everywhere I try only stocks the Nixvue vista.

Andrea.

Click to expand...

todds · Jul 30, 2003

It is there attemp to verify that you the owner of the card and not just somebody that has gotten the number.

They might even call your bank in the UK to verify the address. My company doesn't ship any international orders without verifing the address (too many bad people out there).

It is easier for the merchant to verify the address if you use an American Express card. It's a USA phone number as opposed to calling the international bank that issued the Visa/Mastercard.

Andrea UK said:
Tried to order a Nixvue DA Lite from the US yesterday - I'm based
in the UK, and don't seem to be able to find anywhere over here
that sells them. I ordered with Adorama and got an email a few
hours later to say that my order is on hold and they want me to
scan or fax a photocopy through of both sides of my credit card -
now call me picky, but I can't help thinking that having provided
my credit card details over a secure web page that faxing or
emailing a picture of my credit card half way across the world is
decidely INSECURE. Apart from which I havn't got access to a
scanner or fax machine that has international dially (international
calls on all the machines where I work are barred).

Has anybody else had this bizarre experience? I understand that B&H
do this too?! I've never come across this before, and I'm concerned
that it just isn't a good idea and would jeapardise the security on
my card. I've written to Adorama to ask if there's any other way
that they can verify my card details, though it looks as though I'm
going to have to cancel my order. Which leads me back to the
problem that I can't find anywhere to buy the unit over here.
Everywhere I try only stocks the Nixvue vista.

Andrea.

tommo · Jul 30, 2003

Try electronically transferring funds.

The bank I use here in Australia allows you to electronically transfer funds through to the stores bank account, so no need to fax or email details of your credit card.
B&H allow you to 'wire' funds to their bank account.

Only problem I found was by the time I had completed the process they had run out of stock of the 10D!

Regards,
Tom

Andrea UK said:
Tried to order a Nixvue DA Lite from the US yesterday - I'm based
in the UK, and don't seem to be able to find anywhere over here
that sells them. I ordered with Adorama and got an email a few
hours later to say that my order is on hold and they want me to
scan or fax a photocopy through of both sides of my credit card -
now call me picky, but I can't help thinking that having provided
my credit card details over a secure web page that faxing or
emailing a picture of my credit card half way across the world is
decidely INSECURE. Apart from which I havn't got access to a
scanner or fax machine that has international dially (international
calls on all the machines where I work are barred).

Has anybody else had this bizarre experience? I understand that B&H
do this too?! I've never come across this before, and I'm concerned
that it just isn't a good idea and would jeapardise the security on
my card. I've written to Adorama to ask if there's any other way
that they can verify my card details, though it looks as though I'm
going to have to cancel my order. Which leads me back to the
problem that I can't find anywhere to buy the unit over here.
Everywhere I try only stocks the Nixvue vista.

Andrea.

Andrea UK · Jul 30, 2003

I didn't feel happy with the request at all, even though I'm sure they're a reputable company. Why offer online shopping to international customers if you can't process their payments properly? I don't have a scanner and getting to a fax machine that I can dial internationally on would have been a fair bit of hassle.

Anyway, I've now cancelled my order. And after a day hunting round the internet I've managed to track down a supplier here in the UK who will ship me the DA Lite HDO - http://www.megapixels.co.uk for anyone else that interested.

Andrea

Julius Seizure · Jul 30, 2003

Instead of faxing a photocopy of your credit card how about using your digicam to photograph it and then email the jpg file. You could even take a photo of yourself holding your driving license and email that too.

Andrea UK said:
I didn't feel happy with the request at all, even though I'm sure
they're a reputable company. Why offer online shopping to
international customers if you can't process their payments
properly? I don't have a scanner and getting to a fax machine that
I can dial internationally on would have been a fair bit of hassle.

Anyway, I've now cancelled my order. And after a day hunting round
the internet I've managed to track down a supplier here in the UK
who will ship me the DA Lite HDO - http://www.megapixels.co.uk for anyone
else that interested.

Andrea

NoBob · Jul 30, 2003

I'm in France and I ordered a Tripper from mydigitaldiscount. I filled in the order form over the Net, then had to email them my name, id code on the back of the credit card and the phone number of the bank. I didn't email the card number. The Tripper's arriving today.

NoBob.

Andrea UK said:
Tried to order a Nixvue DA Lite from the US yesterday - I'm based
in the UK, and don't seem to be able to find anywhere over here
that sells them. I ordered with Adorama and got an email a few
hours later to say that my order is on hold and they want me to
scan or fax a photocopy through of both sides of my credit card -
now call me picky, but I can't help thinking that having provided
my credit card details over a secure web page that faxing or
emailing a picture of my credit card half way across the world is
decidely INSECURE. Apart from which I havn't got access to a
scanner or fax machine that has international dially (international
calls on all the machines where I work are barred).

Has anybody else had this bizarre experience? I understand that B&H
do this too?! I've never come across this before, and I'm concerned
that it just isn't a good idea and would jeapardise the security on
my card. I've written to Adorama to ask if there's any other way
that they can verify my card details, though it looks as though I'm
going to have to cancel my order. Which leads me back to the
problem that I can't find anywhere to buy the unit over here.
Everywhere I try only stocks the Nixvue vista.

Andrea.

Estuardo · Jul 31, 2003

Strange I saw basically the same foolish (IMO) request about a week ago in the amdmb forum http://www.amdforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=242797 but he was buying something from "Vertigo Online". Not sure where he's located.

Tried purchasing online, but the merchant wanted a a faxed copy of the front and back of his credit card.

Any time a merchant doubts the validity of my credit card (I use a secondary address for verification purposes, which sometimes manual entry of the data to verify), I simply have my bank call the merchant (no cost to me) to verify it.

If it's drawn on a U.S. bank, the request is, at the least, strange. I cannot see the logic to request a fax if the card number, expiration date, 3-digit code and name verify. If the transaction is fraudulent because of a stolen card, and the card was verified correctly by the merchant, wouldn't the credit card company/bank be liable for payment?

If that every happened to me, I'd do exactly what you did - find another vendor.

Stuart Mitchell · Jul 31, 2003

Andrea UK said:
I didn't feel happy with the request at all, even though I'm sure
they're a reputable company. Why offer online shopping to
international customers if you can't process their payments
properly? I don't have a scanner and getting to a fax machine that
I can dial internationally on would have been a fair bit of hassle.

I had the same request from B&H when I ordered my DAlite - though in this case I'd read about it in advance on their website. Fortiunately I has access to a scanner at work andso it wasn't a real problem.

Andrea UK said:
Anyway, I've now cancelled my order. And after a day hunting round
the internet I've managed to track down a supplier here in the UK
who will ship me the DA Lite HDO - http://www.megapixels.co.uk for anyone
else that interested.

Thanks for that - looks like a useful site. The price on the HDO version of the DAlite seems to be good too... I hope it comes with a UK power supply

Stuart

Jola · Jul 31, 2003

for the merchant to ask you to fax over the front and back of the card, as well as a statement.

In this way he can be sure that:

It is not a number stolen on the internet (because you have the card)
It is not a stolen card (because you have the statement)
The delivery address is the same as the billing address.
The phone number of the bank should be on the statement if he needs to do further checks.

Unfortunately there is a lot of credit card fraud and this protects the merchant as well as yourself.

I also order stuff from outside the USA, and I would rather they do this than not deal with me at all.

As for direct transfers, I did one the other day to a company in Singapore who wouldn't accept credit card transactions because of the risk. My bank charged me USD45 for the transfer (only USD180 order plus USD20 shipping), so I won't be doing that again (it is OK for large transactions, but doesn't work for smaller ones). I suggested that they join PayPal - and guess what? - They did! But they will charge 3.5% for that, which is fine - only USD7 on an order similar to my previous one.

Otherwise I wouldn't have bought from them again, even though their service was good.

Stuart Mitchell · Aug 1, 2003

Jola said:
for the merchant to ask you to fax over the front and back of the
card, as well as a statement.

In this way he can be sure that:

It is not a number stolen on the internet (because you have the

card)

It is not a stolen card (because you have the statement)

The delivery address is the same as the billing address.

The phone number of the bank should be on the statement if he

needs to do further checks.

Any of which can be faked in minutes using Photoshop - simply take a scan, rearrange the numbers as required (possibly cutting and pasting from other scans) and print. Fax the print and the merchant is none the wiser...

However, it's hard to see what other choices the merchant has if they want to accept non-US orders. As I mentioned earlier I had no problems when asked to fax/email the information by B&H. What is really needed is a stronger form of verification (e.g. enabling US merchants to verify addresses associated with cards issued by non-US banks) and validation (my CCs are smartcards so build a device that the card can be plugged into that the merchant's website can interrogate the card directly using a - hopefully - secure protocol).

Stuart

Jola · Aug 1, 2003

Stuart Mitchell said:
Jola said:

for the merchant to ask you to fax over the front and back of the
card, as well as a statement.

In this way he can be sure that:

It is not a number stolen on the internet (because you have the

card)

It is not a stolen card (because you have the statement)

The delivery address is the same as the billing address.

The phone number of the bank should be on the statement if he

needs to do further checks.

Click to expand...

Any of which can be faked in minutes using Photoshop - simply take
a scan, rearrange the numbers as required (possibly cutting and
pasting from other scans) and print. Fax the print and the merchant
is none the wiser...

Yes, I suppose that is true, but they have to try. Also, if they phone the number on the statement it would have to be in the right country - which would mean associates in that country that would also answer a random call in the right way - possible but unlikely.

Stuart Mitchell said:
However, it's hard to see what other choices the merchant has if
they want to accept non-US orders. As I mentioned earlier I had no
problems when asked to fax/email the information by B&H. What is
really needed is a stronger form of verification (e.g. enabling
US merchants to verify addresses associated with cards issued by
non-US banks) and validation (my CCs are smartcards so build a
device that the card can be plugged into that the merchant's
website can interrogate the card directly using a - hopefully -
secure protocol).

Yes, the only simple answer is some international credit card database with correct and verifiable addresses. But this is probably easier said than done. And also present dangers in itself, imagine if this is hacked.

The safest for the merchants is direct transfers, but the bank fees for this is too high.

Paypal? Maybe, I don't know what all the pros and cons are.

Doug Warner · Aug 4, 2003

todds said:
It is there attemp to verify that you the owner of the card and not
just somebody that has gotten the number.

You'd think by now, the CC issuers would have fixed this ridiculous security hole in a more effricient way. Such as a card with built-in electronics, display, keypad.. Merchant gives you a transaction number and your PIN, you key it in, and the card spits out a one-time "purchase order" number, good for one use by by that merchant alone.

There would be no such thing as stolen credit card numbers.

In the year 2003, it should be impossible for anyone other than the cardholder to charge anything with it. I used to wonder why it hasn't been fixed yet, until I reailized that the issuers don't have to eat the cost of the fraud their lax security encourages.

If they had to eat every fraudulent charge starting today, they'd have a secure card system in place tomorrow.

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Bizarre Online Shopping Experience

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