Longer zoom, or larger sensor & crop in post?

Kawika Nui · Jan 14, 2016

I am mathematically challenged, so I hope someone will help me out here.

The goal: shoot pictures of subjects far away with as much detail as possible.

The choice:

12mp bridge camera with up to 600mm equiv. zoom, 1/2.3" sensor (FZ150) or

20mp camera with up to 250mm equiv. zoom, 1" sensor (ZS100).

The question: will I get longer "reach" by using maximum zoom on the FZ150 or by using the maximum zoom on the ZS100 and cropping? In other words, which camera will allow me to get the most detail in a photo of the same subject at the same distance?

kkardster · Jan 14, 2016

Kawika Nui said:
I am mathematically challenged, so I hope someone will help me out here.

The goal: shoot pictures of subjects far away with as much detail as possible.

The choice:

12mp bridge camera with up to 600mm equiv. zoom, 1/2.3" sensor (FZ150) or

20mp camera with up to 250mm equiv. zoom, 1" sensor (ZS100).

The question: will I get longer "reach" by using maximum zoom on the FZ150 or by using the maximum zoom on the ZS100 and cropping? In other words, which camera will allow me to get the most detail in a photo of the same subject at the same distance?

There are a lot of variables involved, but the FZ1000 can (1", 400mm EFL) can essentially match the FZ150/200/300 (1/2.3", 600mm EFL) but the ZS100 (1", 250mm EFL) will come up short.

cainn24 · Jan 14, 2016

Kawika Nui said:
I am mathematically challenged, so I hope someone will help me out here.

The goal: shoot pictures of subjects far away with as much detail as possible.

The choice:

12mp bridge camera with up to 600mm equiv. zoom, 1/2.3" sensor (FZ150) or

20mp camera with up to 250mm equiv. zoom, 1" sensor (ZS100).

The question: will I get longer "reach" by using maximum zoom on the FZ150 or by using the maximum zoom on the ZS100 and cropping? In other words, which camera will allow me to get the most detail in a photo of the same subject at the same distance?

I am in agreement with kkardster.

Unless I messed up the calculation in my current sleep-derived state cropping output produced by the 20MP 1"-type sensor in the ZS100 at a 250mm EFL to match a 600mm FOV would be something like the equivalent of having a 3.5MP 1/3"-type (iPhone size) sensor in the ZS100 instead. And it's actually even a little bit worse than it sounds because in addition to the drop in resolving power that comes as a consequence of having fewer pixels to put on your subject of interest you also lose resolving power on the optical side of things as well as a consequence of using only a small portion of the lenses image circle.

To put it more succinctly, in this specific scenario the ZS100 essentially becomes a low-resolution pinhead-sensor abomination with horrible glass that can't hold a candle to the FZ150

(I was too lazy to correct for the aspect ratio difference here but it doesn't make a big difference anyway)

rickramz · Jan 14, 2016

Is there a single place on the net that has all the equations (and explanations) for how to calculate these kinds of numbers. It doesn't have to be just one page, I can usually cope with tens of pages...

I'm looking at several cameras myself, and would like to compare their 'absolute' image capture numbers. I'd probably use Excel and make a spreadsheet so I could study many cameras over multi-years time.

Thanks,

richj20 · Jan 15, 2016

kkardster said:
Kawika Nui said:

I am mathematically challenged, so I hope someone will help me out here.

The goal: shoot pictures of subjects far away with as much detail as possible.

The choice:

12mp bridge camera with up to 600mm equiv. zoom, 1/2.3" sensor (FZ150) or

20mp camera with up to 250mm equiv. zoom, 1" sensor (ZS100).

The question: will I get longer "reach" by using maximum zoom on the FZ150 or by using the maximum zoom on the ZS100 and cropping? In other words, which camera will allow me to get the most detail in a photo of the same subject at the same distance?

Click to expand...

There are a lot of variables involved, but the FZ1000 can (1", 400mm EFL) can essentially match the FZ150/200/300 (1/2.3", 600mm EFL)

Hello Bruce,

Theoretically, this sounds plausible. In practice, it may not work, depending on one's threshold of acceptability when cropping.

If I filled the frame with the FZ200, and photographed from the same distance with the FZ1000, the crop to match the FZ200 framing usually turned out OK.

I said "usually" because in the case of certain wildlife, noticeable detail is sometimes lost when cropping the FZ1000 image to match that of the FZ200.

But if my FZ200 image did not fill the frame and I cropped for the final image, then the FZ1000 crop to match was not acceptable to me.

More and more, I pass up opportunities if a large crop is involved -- I don't click the shutter. With any lens, the closer you are, the more pixels you have to work with.

Each photographer will have her/his threshold of acceptability regarding cropping.

- Richard

--
http://www.rsjphoto.net

davesurrey · Jan 15, 2016

I assume what cainn24 did was to say that to achieve the same angle of view of 600 mm with a 250 mm lens you need to crop by a factor 600/250 ie 2.4 But that is a linear dimension and when we speak of Megapixels they are spread over an area. So assuming the same shape ie aspect ratio we need to divide the 20MP by (2.4) squared. Hence 20MP / 2.4 squared = 3.5 MP.

cainn24 · Jan 15, 2016

rickramz said:
Is there a single place on the net that has all the equations (and explanations) for how to calculate these kinds of numbers. It doesn't have to be just one page, I can usually cope with tens of pages...

I'm looking at several cameras myself, and would like to compare their 'absolute' image capture numbers. I'd probably use Excel and make a spreadsheet so I could study many cameras over multi-years time.

Thanks,

It's very easy if you don't mind being quick and dirty about it. Just do something like the following:

1) divide your focal length by the one you're trying to match (35mm equivalent terms are fine since you're running the calculation against the same camera the whole time)

2) multiply both the vertical and horizontal resolution by that number. This gives you the dimensions of the crop you need to do

3) multiply the sensor dimensions by that number also. You can get the sensor dimensions from several places, including here. Then just look for the sensor type that most closely matches the result

Example (the one at hand, no less):

ZS100 specs: 1"-type sensor (13.2mm x 8.8mm), 20.1 Megapickles (5472px x 3648px), 250mm EFL

So:

250mm / 600mm = 0.42

0.42 x 5472 = 2298px

0.42 x 3648 = 1532px

2298 x 1532 = 3.52 MP

0.42 x 8.8mm = 3.7mm = 1/1.3"-type sensor (or thereabouts)

EDIT: Sorry, typo. That should read: 1/3"-type sensor (or thereabouts)

You might also be interested in having a play around with this: http://www.vision-doctor.co.uk/camera-calculations/calculation-sensor-diagonal-sensor-ratio.html

cainn24 · Jan 15, 2016

davesurrey said:
I assume what cainn24 did was to say that to achieve the same angle of view of 600 mm with a 250 mm lens you need to crop by a factor 600/250 ie 2.4 But that is a linear dimension and when we speak of Megapixels they are spread over an area. So assuming the same shape ie aspect ratio we need to divide the 20MP by (2.4) squared. Hence 20MP / 2.4 squared = 3.5 MP.

More than one way to skin a cat!

(for the record although I am allergic to cats, I still love them, and I would never skin one

)

davesurrey · Jan 15, 2016

Seems our posts crossed.

Cheers.

Dave

cainn24 · Jan 15, 2016

davesurrey said:
Seems our posts crossed.

Cheers.

Dave

That caused me to try to think of a good joke about crossing streams, so off I went looking for a funny image. But instead I ended up here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostbusters_(2016_film)

A Ghostbusters remake? Really?

I hope it will be fun, at least.

davesurrey · Jan 15, 2016

Yes, that's Google for you. You start out looking for crop factors for example and end up hours later reading about the latest SuperNova or how to make Anzac biscuits. :-O

windmillgolfer · Jan 15, 2016

Others have already explained that the ZS100/TZ100, with cropping, would still fall well short of the FZ150's 600mm. I expect the ZS100 will appeal to users (like me) who only expect to use maximum optical and digital/EZ extended zoom occasionally when touring with pocketable camera, shooting internal/external architecture, people and landscape.

Another thing to consider is shutter speed when shooting at high zoom. Both FZ150 and ZS100 will be at f5.6 or higher (smaller) aperture, which is not an issue in very good light. There should be more scope for upping on the ZS100 the ISO to improve shutter speed. If light is not so good, the FZ200 (for constant f2.8) or FZ1000 (better aperture and cropping for high zoom) might be better options.

The FZ200 is now available at low prices, compared to when new. The FZ1000 has started to come down a bit and is now similar to the ZS100, which, as a new camera, is expensive.

bill hansen · Jan 15, 2016

This thread should be required reading for all those people whose FL doesn't go beyond 70mm, but who say that to get the equivalent of 100-120mm FL - "just crop in post".

Mister Roboto · Jan 15, 2016

Kawika Nui said:
I am mathematically challenged, so I hope someone will help me out here.

The goal: shoot pictures of subjects far away with as much detail as possible.

The choice:

12mp bridge camera with up to 600mm equiv. zoom, 1/2.3" sensor (FZ150) or

20mp camera with up to 250mm equiv. zoom, 1" sensor (ZS100).

The question: will I get longer "reach" by using maximum zoom on the FZ150 or by using the maximum zoom on the ZS100 and cropping? In other words, which camera will allow me to get the most detail in a photo of the same subject at the same distance?

It will be a stretch but possible for ZS100 to come close (still short) to the output of FZ150 given that the latter has much smaller sensor thus viewing ZS100 at 100% would be better than viewing FZ150 shot at > 50% crop. I would suggest getting FZ1000 or any m43 with 300mm EFL lens. Any of those two setups will easily trounce FZ150.

cainn24 · Jan 15, 2016

bill hansen said:
This thread should be required reading for all those people whose FL doesn't go beyond 70mm, but who say that to get the equivalent of 100-120mm FL - "just crop in post".

When you crop on big-sensor cameras (which are awesome), the cropped image data still inherits that bigsensoredness. What is "bigsensoredness"? Well, it's sort of an ethereal-like quality really. It's like how some people might talk about how they feel like the spirits of their ancestors are living on inside them. It doesn't matter if the crop is so extreme that the resulting photo is the product of a piece of sensor area that is smaller than the nail on your little finger, it is still big-sensor output, therefore it is still awesome. More awesome than "small"-sensor output.

Got it?

:-D

kkardster · Jan 15, 2016

cainn24 said:
rickramz said:

Is there a single place on the net that has all the equations (and explanations) for how to calculate these kinds of numbers. It doesn't have to be just one page, I can usually cope with tens of pages...

I'm looking at several cameras myself, and would like to compare their 'absolute' image capture numbers. I'd probably use Excel and make a spreadsheet so I could study many cameras over multi-years time.

Thanks,

Click to expand...

It's very easy if you don't mind being quick and dirty about it. Just do something like the following: ...

Of course, these type of calculations are ball parks and make assumptions such as all lenses have same/infinite resolving power. But they do show that the ZS100 can't match 600mm EFL optical lenses.

davesurrey · Jan 15, 2016

kkardster said:
Of course, these type of calculations are ball parks and make assumptions such as all lenses have same/infinite resolving power. But they do show that the ZS100 can't match 600mm EFL optical lenses.

It was a simple geometrical calculation designed to answer rickramz's request as to how cainn24 arrived at his numbers. I believe it gave him and the OP the info they wanted to know.

I made no assumptions about resolving powers or anything else (except aspect ratio) as none was needed. Let's not complicate things where they don't need to be.

kkardster · Jan 15, 2016

richj20 said:
kkardster said:

Kawika Nui said:

I am mathematically challenged, so I hope someone will help me out here.

The goal: shoot pictures of subjects far away with as much detail as possible.

The choice:

12mp bridge camera with up to 600mm equiv. zoom, 1/2.3" sensor (FZ150) or

20mp camera with up to 250mm equiv. zoom, 1" sensor (ZS100).

The question: will I get longer "reach" by using maximum zoom on the FZ150 or by using the maximum zoom on the ZS100 and cropping? In other words, which camera will allow me to get the most detail in a photo of the same subject at the same distance?

Click to expand...

There are a lot of variables involved, but the FZ1000 can (1", 400mm EFL) can essentially match the FZ150/200/300 (1/2.3", 600mm EFL)

Click to expand...

Hello Bruce,

Theoretically, this sounds plausible. In practice, it may not work, depending on one's threshold of acceptability when cropping.

If I filled the frame with the FZ200, and photographed from the same distance with the FZ1000, the crop to match the FZ200 framing usually turned out OK.

I said "usually" because in the case of certain wildlife, noticeable detail is sometimes lost when cropping the FZ1000 image to match that of the FZ200.

But if my FZ200 image did not fill the frame and I cropped for the final image, then the FZ1000 crop to match was not acceptable to me.

More and more, I pass up opportunities if a large crop is involved -- I don't click the shutter. With any lens, the closer you are, the more pixels you have to work with.

Each photographer will have her/his threshold of acceptability regarding cropping.

Agreed - this particular FZ1000 vz FZ150/200/300 comparison is right at the edge and falls on one side of the fence or the other depending on conditions and needs. I only offered it here as an example of how if the FZ1000 can somewhat/barely match the smaller FZ's, there's no way the ZS100 can possibly come close.

I don't have the FZ1000 but from reading threads here I understand that for many FZ1000 owners, shooting the FZ1000 using picture size M [possibly with i.Zoom] closely matches the 600mm EFL FZ models for their purposes. Of course - as with direct cropping in post - YMMV.

kkardster · Jan 15, 2016

davesurrey said:
kkardster said:

Of course, these type of calculations are ball parks and make assumptions such as all lenses have same/infinite resolving power. But they do show that the ZS100 can't match 600mm EFL optical lenses.

Click to expand...

It was a simple geometrical calculation designed to answer the OP's request as to how cainn24 arrived at his numbers. The OP seemed to be happy with that and I believe it gave him what he wanted to know.

I made no assumptions about resolving powers or anything else (except aspect ratio) as none was needed. Let's not complicate things where they don't need to be.

Understood, but I only responded such because of the inquiry about a possible:

davesurrey said:
davesurrey said:

davesurrey said:

Is there a single place on the net that has all the equations (and explanations) for how to calculate these kinds of numbers. It doesn't have to be just one page, I can usually cope with tens of pages...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

As I noted, I fully agree that cainn24's calculation is good enough to illustrate that the ZS100 can't match any of the FZ models.

I should have included the above quoted section, as I intended to show it's just not that easy to come up with a single equation that can truly make such comparisons. I also still had my FZ1000 vs FZ150 comparison in my head, where those two models are so close at 600mm EFL that such coarse calculations can't really identify one as truly better than the other.

Let's agree to agree!

--
Bruce
You learn something new every time you press the shutter

davesurrey · Jan 15, 2016

No problems and thanks for the clarification.

Dave

Longer zoom, or larger sensor & crop in post?

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