Have we been trained to see a certain aspect ratio?

For me it would be 2x3. I shoot mostly 2x3 - the DSLR default, but when I edit I am free to recompose to any aspect ratio I prefer. I find however, that I almost always leave the AR at 2:3. This is even though I realize that the most popular printing format is 4x5, so it would actually make sense for me to crop to that ratio since the end user is likely to print at that ratio. I try to accomodate and whenever possible, I do crop to 4x5, but I never really seem to quite like it as much as 2x3. Since there is nothing really special about 2x3, I wonder if it doesn't come from just getting so used to seeing 2x3 that my mind automatically frames that way. OTOH, I do like the 4x3 AR but that's even harder to print than 2x3, so maybe I'm just making stuff up. Does anyone feel the same way or is this just me?
3:2 is very close to the golden ratio - this is the explanation that I have read somewhere.
1.5 isn't particularly close to 1.62. And many of the things that are claimed to be proportioned to the golden ratio aren't. There was a post here some months ago with several links to support that: I hope someone can point it out.

3:2 photographically comes from the fact when 35mm film, which was introduced for cine frames at 4:3, was adapted to stills the frame size was doubled (and turned through a right angle): 2 x 3:3 becomes 6:4 = 3:2.

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Gerry
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First camera 1953, first Pentax 1985, first DSLR 2006
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Professor Devlin from Stanford has written a book about this and here is a rather long but very interesting lecture on the subject.


you can start at 30 minutes...

He doesnt believe we (as humans) have a particular preference for a certain rectangle (I believe the golden rectangle came 10th out of 25)

Interestingly computer screens were 4:3 until 2003, by 2008 the majority were 16:10 (now that is quite close to the golden ratio) and by 2011 the majority of computer screens had moved to 16:9.

My theory is you li8ke what you get used to. A 4:3 computer or tv screen looked perfect when I was growing up - now I see a 4:3 screen and it looks ridiculous.

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An intersteing question, but for me I like to see work in a few differnt aspect ratios. I came up shooting 35mm and was fine with that more panoramic type format. Now I have an m4/3 camera and have come to prefer that format. You see, I like the square as well and 4:3 seems to me to be a nice middle ground between the square and something wider. I like it much better genrally for vertically oriented shots too... All that being said though I like the flexibility of using a few different aspect rations in my photos. For the sake of consistency though I genreally keep it to only square, 4:3 and 2:3 as I don't really like the look of having too many different formats too look at. I do however break that rule when I've shot a panorama and then anything goes!
The multi-aspect sensor on the GH2 is really great in this respect, because you can switch formats without losing pixels. Now that I've mostly switched to an EM5ii, I miss it a lot, but I do find that I've quickly adapted to "seeing" in 4:3 for the most part. I'd love to have that feature in a newer body.
 
An intersteing question, but for me I like to see work in a few differnt aspect ratios. I came up shooting 35mm and was fine with that more panoramic type format. Now I have an m4/3 camera and have come to prefer that format. You see, I like the square as well and 4:3 seems to me to be a nice middle ground between the square and something wider. I like it much better genrally for vertically oriented shots too... All that being said though I like the flexibility of using a few different aspect rations in my photos. For the sake of consistency though I genreally keep it to only square, 4:3 and 2:3 as I don't really like the look of having too many different formats too look at. I do however break that rule when I've shot a panorama and then anything goes!
The multi-aspect sensor on the GH2 is really great in this respect, because you can switch formats without losing pixels. Now that I've mostly switched to an EM5ii, I miss it a lot, but I do find that I've quickly adapted to "seeing" in 4:3 for the most part. I'd love to have that feature in a newer body.
I haven't really ever messed with that on my GH2. Considering that I've rarely ever printed anything though, even cropping in doesn't really hurt when the final destination is in a web gallery. even if I do print one of those that I've cropped to the wider format, it seems that I can still go fairly big before they'll be any loss. If there's ever the perfect storm of needing to print a wide format thing really large then I'll regret that I didn't shoot it in that format... Though this is less likely to happen with anything newer as I'm using my E-m10 more these days.
 
I think the circular sensor case has been brought up before, and I am not entirely sure why we prefer rectangles when nothing in nature is rectangular. Quite a puzzle!
Human technology overwhelmingly prefers flat surfaces and right angles, probably because it is efficient: we can make standard parts flat and rectangular, and build a variety of sizes of objects from these. Just look at a hardware store: the lumber, bricks, piping, flooring, and picture framing and are mainly straight, while plywood and sheetrock are flat. How would you even design a standardized system of components if they were all curved? Wouldn't this severely limit the architecture?

People have made dome homes, but these have turned out to be inefficient oddities: not all of the floor space is usable, and heating and cooling is problematic. Likewise, buildings have been made without rectangular floor plans, but access to rooms and building navigation can become a problem if taken to an absurd degree.

Perhaps there was more flexibility back in the days of craftsmanship, but even the immensely elaborate Gothic structures emphasizes horizontality and verticality, despite the decorative carvings and use of circular arcs. Also note that the non-flat, non-straight, non-ninety degree angle components were placed up high: within sight but not where humans actually had to live.

Flat surfaces and right angles are also intellectually tractable: simple geometries are understandable and easy to deal with, such as calculating the area of floor or wall space when specifying the amount of flooring and paint needed in a room.

On the contrary, nature uses atoms as her standardized building blocks, and these can fit together far more flexibly.

***

There have been a number of discussions here about the use of circular sensors, and these would seem to be nothing more than a curiosity, not the least since composing a scene within a circle would be problematic except for the simplest of subjects that can stand a centralized composition. Otherwise, making these sensors would be inefficient: either silicon wafer space would be lost, or an opaque mask would cut off the edges of the sensor, or software in the camera would set the pixels outside of the circle as white.

The JPEG, TIFF, PNG, and as far as I know all other formats only supports rectangles, and creating a new circular image format seems to be unlikely. Also, how would you edit such a round image? Especially if you do perspective distortion correction, which would break the circular format? Would you only allow circular cropping of the image? I can image all sorts of poor rectangular crops that would leave a part of the circle intact, which would be pretty ugly.
 
For instance . . . if you play two notes an octave apart . . . they sound good and that is a ratio of 1:2.

Then . . . he plays a fifth . . . and announces that is a ratio of 3:2. ! Ok. That's cool.

And then next he plays a fourth . . . and announces that is a ratio of 4:3. !

Mind blown! LOL.
That's not a coincidence.

The theory of harmonics got its start back in ancient Greece with a study of music, and from there it continued into number theory and the mathematics of ratios. It turns out, there were certain ratios of sounds that sound good, and other ratios that sound discordant, and the good-sounding chords tend to be ratios of small numbers: 1:1, 2:1, 3:2, 4:3 and so forth. (However, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that human hearing has nonlinearities, and so optimally pleasing sounds aren't quite this simple: slightly sharp octaves — ratios a bit larger than 2:1 — usually sound better than a mathematically perfect octave, and likewise for fourths, fifths, etc., which also explains why flats are considered particularly bad).

Usually, aspect ratios are now assumed to be merely historical accidents with no relevance to us today, but I suspect that the classically-trained inventors of aspect ratios in our technology had the old ideas in mind. Harmonics was a standard part of education for thousands of years in the West, up until the 1960s. Of course 3:2 and 4:3 would be chosen as standard aspect ratios: these are just about the most pleasing harmonic ratios according to the classical theories, along with 1:1 and 2:1. On the other hand, the HDTV ratio of 16:9 is a kludge, since that was long considered a particularly discordant ratio: but this ratio came about long after the old classical ideas were discarded, and instead has the egalitarian notion that all ratios are equally harmonic.

***

Let's do a thought experiment: assume that the government, or the United Nations, decrees that all camera sensors are henceforth going to be in one standard aspect ratio, everywhere in the world, and that use of old cameras that do not conform to this standard is strictly prohibited. Now this is obviously an absurd situation, but let's go with it. What would be the better standard:
  1. All cameras must have a 5:1 aspect ratio;
  2. All cameras must have a 1:1 aspect ratio;, or,
  3. Some other value?
I think the first proposal is utter nonsense, supportable only by the worse kind of party hack. The second seems a lot more reasonable, for sure, but maybe isn't optimal: would some kind of oblong format be better, at least for the purpose of facilitating varying compositions? If so, which format? Clearly, not all formats are equal, particularly for general use.

One thing to note is that cinema prefers wider ratios, but films are always presented in landscape format: folks who take a video in portrait format are severely criticized: but portrait format portraits are completely acceptable, but usually not with large aspect ratios.
 
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I often wonder why camera frame ratios are not linked to paper sizes available for photo printing ?

It goes beyond that when you consider the availablility of suitable picture frame sizes. It is high time somone took this issue on-board & rationalised the whole system.The problems go way back as I remember getting prints back from the lab from my film cameras which had vital elements of the image cropped in a careless mannner with regard to composition.
 
I often wonder why camera frame ratios are not linked to paper sizes available for photo printing ?
I guess . . . in the old film days . . . the aspect ratio was linked to the film that was available.

There would be different size film available . . . but then certain film sizes became the preferred.

Like the 35mm film.

This then would be the deciding (limiting) factor that defined aspect ratio within the camera.

And the 35mm film for stills was taken from the 35mm film used for motion pictures, but sideways.
It goes beyond that when you consider the availablility of suitable picture frame sizes. It is high time somone took this issue on-board & rationalised the whole system.The problems go way back as I remember getting prints back from the lab from my film cameras which had vital elements of the image cropped in a careless mannner with regard to composition.
So many different ways to display an image.

When I shoot, I try to shoot a bit wide, and I try to remember to shoot horizontals (I have a tendency to shoot a lot of verticals for portraits.)

Horizontals display better on TVs because you don't have the black bars on either side.

And shooting wide lets you print out at 4x6, 5x7 or 8x10 while keeping the main subject from being cut off.

I found this post on 16:9 aspect ratio. And if you read how it was formed . . . it was formed with displaying content on different aspect screens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16:9

If you read what they say about "shoot and protect", basically it is the idea of shooting wide and keeping your main content in the most confining aspect ratio.

As our computer screens become wider and things in the video world get to 16:9, I don't know if that will happen for print. So if we are displaying our picture both on screen and in print, there will always be this issue of aspect ratio.

What they are doing in video is "shoot and protect" so that it works in various aspect ratios.

Take care & Happy Shooting!
:)

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For instance . . . if you play two notes an octave apart . . . they sound good and that is a ratio of 1:2.

Then . . . he plays a fifth . . . and announces that is a ratio of 3:2. ! Ok. That's cool.

And then next he plays a fourth . . . and announces that is a ratio of 4:3. !

Mind blown! LOL.
That's not a coincidence.
+1
The theory of harmonics got its start back in ancient Greece with a study of music, and from there it continued into number theory and the mathematics of ratios. It turns out, there were certain ratios of sounds that sound good, and other ratios that sound discordant, and the good-sounding chords tend to be ratios of small numbers: 1:1, 2:1, 3:2, 4:3 and so forth. (However, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that human hearing has nonlinearities, and so optimally pleasing sounds aren't quite this simple: slightly sharp octaves — ratios a bit larger than 2:1 — usually sound better than a mathematically perfect octave, and likewise for fourths, fifths, etc., which also explains why flats are considered particularly bad).
+1

But even though the flats are considered bad, they are useful to how it makes us feel.
Usually, aspect ratios are now assumed to be merely historical accidents with no relevance to us today, but I suspect that the classically-trained inventors of aspect ratios in our technology had the old ideas in mind. Harmonics was a standard part of education for thousands of years in the West, up until the 1960s. Of course 3:2 and 4:3 would be chosen as standard aspect ratios: these are just about the most pleasing harmonic ratios according to the classical theories, along with 1:1 and 2:1. On the other hand, the HDTV ratio of 16:9 is a kludge, since that was long considered a particularly discordant ratio: but this ratio came about long after the old classical ideas were discarded, and instead has the egalitarian notion that all ratios are equally harmonic.
+1

I did a bit of reading on where the aspect ratios in film came from and there were a bunch of kludge jobs along the way. Brilliant kludge jobs . . . but kludge jobs none the less. (Like turning the motion picture film side ways to use for stills. Brilliant. And practical since that film already existed. Not something designed from the ground up for its end use. And the design had to work with the pre-existing sprocket holes.)
***

Let's do a thought experiment: assume that the government, or the United Nations, decrees that all camera sensors are henceforth going to be in one standard aspect ratio, everywhere in the world, and that use of old cameras that do not conform to this standard is strictly prohibited. Now this is obviously an absurd situation, but let's go with it. What would be the better standard:
  1. All cameras must have a 5:1 aspect ratio;
  2. All cameras must have a 1:1 aspect ratio;, or,
  3. Some other value?
I think the first proposal is utter nonsense, supportable only by the worse kind of party hack. The second seems a lot more reasonable, for sure, but maybe isn't optimal: would some kind of oblong format be better, at least for the purpose of facilitating varying compositions? If so, which format? Clearly, not all formats are equal, particularly for general use.
Yes.

But I guess when film was being used, that would have been the governing body that determined aspect ratio.

Sure. There was various aspect ratios available.

But after time, certain ones would become the "popular" choice and thus be more readily available and supported. Such as 35mm film for stills cameras. 4x5. etc.

But now that we aren't using film . . . aspect ratio on cameras can be whatever the sensor is.

But, I guess, even when film started being removed from the equation . . . the old tube TV with its 4:3 aspect ratio was still involved because there were sensors being manufactured to that aspect ratio?

But now that we are going wide screen . . . now that is out the door as well.
One thing to note is that cinema prefers wider ratios, but films are always presented in landscape format: folks who take a video in portrait format are severely criticized: but portrait format portraits are completely acceptable, but usually not with large aspect ratios.
I guess that is the thing. Shoot with the end in mind. And shoot a bit wide so that depending on the device it is being presented / printed on . . . your main subject does not get cut off. :)

 
Actually I agree, 11x14" does seem "right" to me whenever I am forced to print at a standard size, and sometimes when I crop free it ends up being close to that AR. Too bad it is not a standard size for ANY camera!
 
I think the circular sensor case has been brought up before, and I am not entirely sure why we prefer rectangles when nothing in nature is rectangular. Quite a puzzle!
Human technology overwhelmingly prefers flat surfaces and right angles, probably because it is efficient: we can make standard parts flat and rectangular, and build a variety of sizes of objects from these. Just look at a hardware store: the lumber, bricks, piping, flooring, and picture framing and are mainly straight, while plywood and sheetrock are flat. How would you even design a standardized system of components if they were all curved? Wouldn't this severely limit the architecture?

People have made dome homes, but these have turned out to be inefficient oddities: not all of the floor space is usable, and heating and cooling is problematic. Likewise, buildings have been made without rectangular floor plans, but access to rooms and building navigation can become a problem if taken to an absurd degree.

Perhaps there was more flexibility back in the days of craftsmanship, but even the immensely elaborate Gothic structures emphasizes horizontality and verticality, despite the decorative carvings and use of circular arcs. Also note that the non-flat, non-straight, non-ninety degree angle components were placed up high: within sight but not where humans actually had to live.

Flat surfaces and right angles are also intellectually tractable: simple geometries are understandable and easy to deal with, such as calculating the area of floor or wall space when specifying the amount of flooring and paint needed in a room.

On the contrary, nature uses atoms as her standardized building blocks, and these can fit together far more flexibly.

***

There have been a number of discussions here about the use of circular sensors, and these would seem to be nothing more than a curiosity, not the least since composing a scene within a circle would be problematic except for the simplest of subjects that can stand a centralized composition. Otherwise, making these sensors would be inefficient: either silicon wafer space would be lost, or an opaque mask would cut off the edges of the sensor, or software in the camera would set the pixels outside of the circle as white.

The JPEG, TIFF, PNG, and as far as I know all other formats only supports rectangles, and creating a new circular image format seems to be unlikely. Also, how would you edit such a round image? Especially if you do perspective distortion correction, which would break the circular format? Would you only allow circular cropping of the image? I can image all sorts of poor rectangular crops that would leave a part of the circle intact, which would be pretty ugly.
 
For me it would be 2x3. I shoot mostly 2x3 - the DSLR default, but when I edit I am free to recompose to any aspect ratio I prefer. I find however, that I almost always leave the AR at 2:3. This is even though I realize that the most popular printing format is 4x5, so it would actually make sense for me to crop to that ratio since the end user is likely to print at that ratio. I try to accomodate and whenever possible, I do crop to 4x5, but I never really seem to quite like it as much as 2x3. Since there is nothing really special about 2x3, I wonder if it doesn't come from just getting so used to seeing 2x3 that my mind automatically frames that way. OTOH, I do like the 4x3 AR but that's even harder to print than 2x3, so maybe I'm just making stuff up. Does anyone feel the same way or is this just me?
 
An intersteing question, but for me I like to see work in a few differnt aspect ratios. I came up shooting 35mm and was fine with that more panoramic type format. Now I have an m4/3 camera and have come to prefer that format. You see, I like the square as well and 4:3 seems to me to be a nice middle ground between the square and something wider. I like it much better genrally for vertically oriented shots too... All that being said though I like the flexibility of using a few different aspect rations in my photos. For the sake of consistency though I genreally keep it to only square, 4:3 and 2:3 as I don't really like the look of having too many different formats too look at. I do however break that rule when I've shot a panorama and then anything goes!
The multi-aspect sensor on the GH2 is really great in this respect, because you can switch formats without losing pixels. Now that I've mostly switched to an EM5ii, I miss it a lot, but I do find that I've quickly adapted to "seeing" in 4:3 for the most part. I'd love to have that feature in a newer body.
I haven't really ever messed with that on my GH2. Considering that I've rarely ever printed anything though, even cropping in doesn't really hurt when the final destination is in a web gallery. even if I do print one of those that I've cropped to the wider format, it seems that I can still go fairly big before they'll be any loss. If there's ever the perfect storm of needing to print a wide format thing really large then I'll regret that I didn't shoot it in that format... Though this is less likely to happen with anything newer as I'm using my E-m10 more these days.
I assigned the aspect ratio to Fn1, and use it a lot. Going from 4:3 to 16:9 with a 14mm is about like going to 12mm, which I find is a significant advantage for some landscapes.
 
An intersteing question, but for me I like to see work in a few differnt aspect ratios. I came up shooting 35mm and was fine with that more panoramic type format. Now I have an m4/3 camera and have come to prefer that format. You see, I like the square as well and 4:3 seems to me to be a nice middle ground between the square and something wider. I like it much better genrally for vertically oriented shots too... All that being said though I like the flexibility of using a few different aspect rations in my photos. For the sake of consistency though I genreally keep it to only square, 4:3 and 2:3 as I don't really like the look of having too many different formats too look at. I do however break that rule when I've shot a panorama and then anything goes!
The multi-aspect sensor on the GH2 is really great in this respect, because you can switch formats without losing pixels. Now that I've mostly switched to an EM5ii, I miss it a lot, but I do find that I've quickly adapted to "seeing" in 4:3 for the most part. I'd love to have that feature in a newer body.
I haven't really ever messed with that on my GH2. Considering that I've rarely ever printed anything though, even cropping in doesn't really hurt when the final destination is in a web gallery. even if I do print one of those that I've cropped to the wider format, it seems that I can still go fairly big before they'll be any loss. If there's ever the perfect storm of needing to print a wide format thing really large then I'll regret that I didn't shoot it in that format... Though this is less likely to happen with anything newer as I'm using my E-m10 more these days.
I assigned the aspect ratio to Fn1, and use it a lot. Going from 4:3 to 16:9 with a 14mm is about like going to 12mm, which I find is a significant advantage for some landscapes.
That's actually a good idea.... I must admit that I've never programed any of those Fn controls on my GH2. The interface seemed intuitive enough not to bother, though for things like what you're talking about, it's definitely a nice way to go. I've started messing with programming the Fn buttons more on my E-M10 as the interface isn't as intuitive for me so there's more of an advantage to doing it that way.

Thanks for the tip... I have a few lenses but nothing wider than 14mmm (the kit zoom) so getting a bit of a wider apparent view is very much appreacaited... I like wide too, I just haven't gotten around to making the investment on a lens that does really wide. At least for m4/3 those focal lengths don't come cheap.
 
I often wonder why camera frame ratios are not linked to paper sizes available for photo printing ?

It goes beyond that when you consider the availablility of suitable picture frame sizes. It is high time somone took this issue on-board & rationalised the whole system.The problems go way back as I remember getting prints back from the lab from my film cameras which had vital elements of the image cropped in a careless mannner with regard to composition.
Actually, the standard frame and matte sizes are harmoniously proportionate to standard image format sizes. There is an old Scientific American article from the 1870s that describes the proportional series used in framing paintings and prints harmoniously… I need to find it again.

What's missing nowadays is that prints, traditionally, were printed with a blank border around them; borderless prints were an innovation from Kodak in the 1970s (and these cut off about a quarter of an inch from each side of the image). But anyway, if you put a uniform border around an image, you can fit an image of any given aspect ratio evenly into a paper that has a slightly smaller aspect ratio: then, by using a matte, you can put that paper into a frame that has a slightly smaller aspect ratio than the paper. The classic example is this:
  • Image size is 4 x 6 inches;
  • Add a half inch border around all edges;
  • This prints evenly on a 5 x 7 inch paper;
  • Add a matte with an even 1-½ inch border around it;
  • This fits evenly within an 8 x 10 inch frame.
Sometimes more than one matte is used to the same effect. The old theory of harmonious proportion doesn't posit just one aspect ratio, but a series of them, differing only by a constant between them: for example, consider the series 2:1, 3:2, 4:3, 5:4, and so forth, where 1 is added to both sides of the ratio for each element in the series, and this can lead to the proportionate stacking of one aspect ratio within another, with uniform borders around each. This system has a lot of flexibility with differing starting points and border widths.

I can see how some people may think this is a fussy Victorian innovation, preferring instead, say, metal prints which can be any aspect ratio at all without any borders at all. But framing in all of its forms, going back at least to the Gothic era (and in a certain sense, even earlier), was usually elaborate and valuable in its own right.
 
I think 8X10 is the headshot ratio because of the paper, not some magical property of that ratio.

Most people have to crop to get to 8X10 anyway...but on 4:3, it's much less of a crop.
 
Very interesting points! I couldn't resist but to point out though... at least with circular sensors we would solve the vignetting problem :p
Not really - vignetting is the natural darkening of an image away from its centre. The only difference is that some of the dark area is cut off in a rectangular image while it wouls all be there in a circular image.
 
For me it would be 2x3. I shoot mostly 2x3 - the DSLR default, but when I edit I am free to recompose to any aspect ratio I prefer. I find however, that I almost always leave the AR at 2:3. This is even though I realize that the most popular printing format is 4x5, so it would actually make sense for me to crop to that ratio since the end user is likely to print at that ratio. I try to accomodate and whenever possible, I do crop to 4x5, but I never really seem to quite like it as much as 2x3. Since there is nothing really special about 2x3, I wonder if it doesn't come from just getting so used to seeing 2x3 that my mind automatically frames that way. OTOH, I do like the 4x3 AR but that's even harder to print than 2x3, so maybe I'm just making stuff up. Does anyone feel the same way or is this just me
I don't think that there is any "best" format. In general we prefer what we are used to. I am used to 3:2 so that works best for me as the starting point.

For me, landscapes and video tend to look better in a wider format and portraits better in a more square aspect ratio such as 1:1. However, any format can be cropped so, as long as you have enough cropping capability in your image, it doesn't really matter what ratio you start with.

If you don't crop and you view all your images on either a tablet or TV, 4:3 and 16:9 are probably your preferred ratios. If you print, you have more freedom and can hopefully match that special picture to its optimum aspect ratio.
 

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