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2012 Sony A57 ($150 used on ebay with kit lens) overspecs Sony A68 ($650 at release)?

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I'll probably still have to buy used a57 cameras because I don't like the huge file sizes and increased editing time needed.

We use an a99 as a primary camera for wedding photography and a57s for support (11-16 2.8 wide angle, 17-50 2.8, while 70-200 is on the a99 OR 50mm on a99 and 70-200 on a57) as well as using a57 cameras with 17-50mm 2.8 for secondary/third shooters. I don't like 24 megapixels when I don't need it, which is just about never.

In fact I'll put a 17-50 2.8 APS-C or 18-35 1.8 on the a99 and have fun with the burst rate and autofocus accuracy at 10 megapixels and no client has ever complained - I even tell them some of the images may be 10 megapixels.

For the sensor I'd prefer higher images in a burst/ faster emptying of buffer. Plus if it's anything like the 24Mp sensor of the a77, in my head to head tests with the a77 the a57 sensor has less color casting in the shadows at high ISOs which is why I went with an a99 instead of a77ii(a downgrade in image quality).

But I'm still not quite happy with the low light performance of the a99 - only about a stop better than the a57. I have taken 12,800 ISO images with the a99 that I like but I've taken 6400 ISO images with the a57 which are just as good.

Now the question is how much the a99ii will cost and how fast it will empty the buffer or can we choose smaller raw file sizes to make emptying the buffer faster? I am interested in buying another a99.

Must haves to make the a99ii worth the dough for me:

Better ISO performance by about 1 stop.

Option of shooting smaller full frame RAWs. (14-18Mp range)

Otherwise I'll buy another used a99.
 
tqlla said:
Honestly, if you are going to compare used to new... the used product should at least be "like new in box". Its ridiculous to compare the price of used product with visible wear, to a new product.
Click to expand...
Bought 9 a57 cameras used so far, mostly from ebay, paying $250-$360 for each, and have never had a single camera with a single problem.

The only thing I'd change in the a57 is the rate it empties the buffer and a better EVF. Autofocus in better low light would be great too. I'd even go for a 12mp sensor with better low light performance.

If the a68 lets us choose smaller RAW sizes, truly has a better EVF, has better ISO performance than a57, empties the buffer more quickly, and focuses better in low light, then it may be worth the money. Otherwise I'll keep buying used a57s.
 
AmyHoover said:
tqlla said:
Honestly, if you are going to compare used to new... the used product should at least be "like new in box". Its ridiculous to compare the price of used product with visible wear, to a new product.
Click to expand...
Bought 9 a57 cameras used so far, mostly from ebay, paying $250-$360 for each, and have never had a single camera with a single problem.
Click to expand...
If that's true why do you keep buying them? For the price you paid for all those you could have an A77ii with some nice lenses.
 
AmyHoover said:
tqlla said:
Honestly, if you are going to compare used to new... the used product should at least be "like new in box". Its ridiculous to compare the price of used product with visible wear, to a new product.
Click to expand...
Bought 9 a57 cameras used so far, mostly from ebay, paying $250-$360 for each, and have never had a single camera with a single problem.

The only thing I'd change in the a57 is the rate it empties the buffer and a better EVF. Autofocus in better low light would be great too. I'd even go for a 12mp sensor with better low light performance.

If the a68 lets us choose smaller RAW sizes, truly has a better EVF, has better ISO performance than a57, empties the buffer more quickly, and focuses better in low light, then it may be worth the money. Otherwise I'll keep buying used a57s.
Click to expand...
I bought 3 or 4 A77's open box without issues.

But buying them used on ebay... IMO does have much more risk. Especially, if you are looking at one with noticeable wear on it, like the OP's A57.
 
tbcass said:
AmyHoover said:
tqlla said:
Honestly, if you are going to compare used to new... the used product should at least be "like new in box". Its ridiculous to compare the price of used product with visible wear, to a new product.
Click to expand...
Bought 9 a57 cameras used so far, mostly from ebay, paying $250-$360 for each, and have never had a single camera with a single problem.
Click to expand...
If that's true why do you keep buying them? For the price you paid for all those you could have an A77ii with some nice lenses.
Click to expand...
#1 Better high ISO performance with a57 (less color casting).

#2 Primary photographer has this on them during a wedding ceremony:

a99 with 50mm or 70-200mm

a57 with 17-50mm 2.8 for versatility

a57 with 11-16mm 2.8 for ultra wide

possibly an a57 with 18-35mm 1.8 or 85mm 1.4

secondary and/or third shooter:

a57 with 17-50mm 2.8.
 
tqlla said:
But buying them used on ebay... IMO does have much more risk. Especially, if you are looking at one with noticeable wear on it, like the OP's A57.
Click to expand...
Forgot to say that WE ALWAYS SEND THE SELLER A MESSAGE ASKING FOR THE SHUTTER COUNT.

If they don't have the info in the sale page or they don't respond, we don't buy.
 
AmyHoover said:
tbcass said:
AmyHoover said:
tqlla said:
Honestly, if you are going to compare used to new... the used product should at least be "like new in box". Its ridiculous to compare the price of used product with visible wear, to a new product.
Click to expand...
Bought 9 a57 cameras used so far, mostly from ebay, paying $250-$360 for each, and have never had a single camera with a single problem.
Click to expand...
If that's true why do you keep buying them? For the price you paid for all those you could have an A77ii with some nice lenses.
Click to expand...
#1 Better high ISO performance with a57 (less color casting).
Click to expand...
WRONG, The A77ii has better high iso performance and is superior in every other possible way.
 
tbcass said:
AmyHoover said:
tbcass said:
AmyHoover said:
tqlla said:
Honestly, if you are going to compare used to new... the used product should at least be "like new in box". Its ridiculous to compare the price of used product with visible wear, to a new product.
Click to expand...
Bought 9 a57 cameras used so far, mostly from ebay, paying $250-$360 for each, and have never had a single camera with a single problem.
Click to expand...
If that's true why do you keep buying them? For the price you paid for all those you could have an A77ii with some nice lenses.
Click to expand...
#1 Better high ISO performance with a57 (less color casting).
Click to expand...
WRONG, The A77ii has better high iso performance and is superior in every other possible way.
Click to expand...
 
AmyHoover said:
AmyHoover said:
But buying them used on ebay... IMO does have much more risk. Especially, if you are looking at one with noticeable wear on it, like the OP's A57.
Click to expand...
Forgot to say that WE ALWAYS SEND THE SELLER A MESSAGE ASKING FOR THE SHUTTER COUNT.

If they don't have the info in the sale page or they don't respond, we don't buy.
Click to expand...
What if they lie?
 
Absolutic said:
Absolutic said:
Absolutic said:
Absolutic said:
If that's true why do you keep buying them? For the price you paid for all those you could have an A77ii with some nice lenses.
Click to expand...
#1 Better high ISO performance with a57 (less color casting).
Click to expand...
WRONG, The A77ii has better high iso performance and is superior in every other possible way.
Click to expand...
I thought she was referring to the first generation A77 in her assessment, not mark 2
Click to expand...
Read above. I specifically said A77ii. She may not realize the difference.
 
AmyHoover said:
AmyHoover said:
But buying them used on ebay... IMO does have much more risk. Especially, if you are looking at one with noticeable wear on it, like the OP's A57.
Click to expand...
Forgot to say that WE ALWAYS SEND THE SELLER A MESSAGE ASKING FOR THE SHUTTER COUNT.

If they don't have the info in the sale page or they don't respond, we don't buy.
Click to expand...
Do you tell them how to get the shutter count? most people have no idea.
 
tbcass said:
Absolutic said:
tbcass said:
tbcass said:
tbcass said:
If that's true why do you keep buying them? For the price you paid for all those you could have an A77ii with some nice lenses.
Click to expand...
#1 Better high ISO performance with a57 (less color casting).
Click to expand...
WRONG, The A77ii has better high iso performance and is superior in every other possible way.
Click to expand...
I thought she was referring to the first generation A77 in her assessment, not mark 2
Click to expand...
Read above. I specifically said A77ii. She may not realize the difference.
Click to expand...
 
tqlla said:
AmyHoover said:
tqlla said:
But buying them used on ebay... IMO does have much more risk. Especially, if you are looking at one with noticeable wear on it, like the OP's A57.
Click to expand...
Forgot to say that WE ALWAYS SEND THE SELLER A MESSAGE ASKING FOR THE SHUTTER COUNT.

If they don't have the info in the sale page or they don't respond, we don't buy.
Click to expand...
Do you tell them how to get the shutter count? most people have no idea.
Click to expand...
"If you can use this tool to tell me the number of shutter actuations I may buy the camera.


Please shoot a file in RAW format and upload the .ARW file to the site."
 
AmyHoover said:
Prove it.

We are talking specifically about RAW performance, not JPG. I tested an a77 and my understanding is the a77ii sensor is about the same. Please show me some proof on a site with lab tests that I'm wrong if you have it, I do HOPE that I'm wrong in case I ever can't find another a57.

But I'd still use the much cheaper used a57 with a smaller RAW file size unless the high ISO performance of a77ii was much better.
Click to expand...
http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Comp...pha-57-versus-Sony-SLT-Alpha-77___953_798_734

DXO is well recognized as the best objective benchmark for sensor RAW performance. In addition the A77ii has a more even noise pattern than the A57 or A77 with less color blotching that responds to noise reduction much better. So no, the A77ii sensor is is not about the same.

--
Tom
Look at the picture, not the pixels
------------
Misuse of the ability to do 100% pixel peeping is the bane of digital photography.
 
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tbcass said:
AmyHoover said:
Prove it.

We are talking specifically about RAW performance, not JPG. I tested an a77 and my understanding is the a77ii sensor is about the same. Please show me some proof on a site with lab tests that I'm wrong if you have it, I do HOPE that I'm wrong in case I ever can't find another a57.

But I'd still use the much cheaper used a57 with a smaller RAW file size unless the high ISO performance of a77ii was much better.
Click to expand...
http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Comp...pha-57-versus-Sony-SLT-Alpha-77___953_798_734

DXO is well recognized as the best objective benchmark for sensor RAW performance. In addition the A77ii has a more even noise pattern than the A57 or A77 with less color blotching that responds to noise reduction much better. So no, the A77ii sensor is is not about the same.
Click to expand...
 
AmyHoover said:
So you've made your point that for ISO performance the a77ii would do the job, but then I don't want 24 megapixel images.
Click to expand...
Why is that?
AmyHoover said:
So if the a77 in my test had worse color casting and the a77ii is the slight improvement that the DXO score shows then it may be the same as the a57, or best case scenario, better, but probably not noticeable.
Click to expand...
Oh it's noticeable.
AmyHoover said:
So the a57 sensor is nearly as good noise wise as the a77ii. Not a convincing reason to spend so much more money IMO. Especially since we have the need for at least 5 of these camera bodies in use at one time.

I'd rather spend the money on another used a99. First one we bought in june only had 10k shutter count for $1350. And no autofocus adjustment needed for all of our non-minolta lenses.
Click to expand...
While I think the high iso performance is better than you realize, is that the only thing that matters to you? The A77ii is only $850 new, has faster more accurate AF, Better EVF viewfinder, Better ergonomics, better LCD viewfinder, better build quality, faster response, more accurate flash exposure and that is only the beginning. It's a professional grade camera while the A57 is consumer grade. Since you are doing professional work I would think that would matter. But, if saving a few bucks is more important than keep doing what you are doing.
 
tbcass said:
While I think the high iso performance is better than you realize, is that the only thing that matters to you? The A77ii is only $850 new, has faster more accurate AF, Better EVF viewfinder, Better ergonomics, better LCD viewfinder, better build quality, faster response, more accurate flash exposure and that is only the beginning. It's a professional grade camera while the A57 is consumer grade. Since you are doing professional work I would think that would matter. But, if saving a few bucks is more important than keep doing what you are doing.
Click to expand...
Does DXO test RAW only? If it was 1 stop greater ISO performance it might be worth it.

Another reason: We hate Lightroom 5. We do so many spot removals and they made the process agonizingly slow in LR5, we immediately switched back to LR 4. So any new camera would require us to convert the images to DNG first. Not a deal breaker but certainly affects workflow speed.

You make some really good points that I think a lot of people should think about. AF, EVF, LCD, and increased shutter rating make it a great camera for the price which has dropped since I last looked at it. I'd love to get my hands on one to test it.

I'm scared of shooting with 79 AF points covering so much of the sensor that when I shoot people dancing for example it may acquire focus on the edges more than I like but if I use center points it won't focus on the middle edges as much as I'd like. I even like the a99's small array in lots of settings.

So benefits of used a57:

Easy to learn/use for second/third photographer.

Price.

Smaller file size, easier to edit images, faster rendering of 1:1 previews.

Faster workflow speed with LR4 compatability.

Benefits of a77ii:

Deep buffer size (but doesn't empty it as fast as we'd like).

Better AF (a57 is good enough for us and a99 fills in when its lacking)

Better EVF (will use the a99 more outdoors because of this)

-We're not concerned with build quality (a57 is fine) or response time, LCD, and I never use automatic flash.

Benefits of used a99 vs either:

Better ISO performance.

Better burst rate.

Smaller APS-C images.

LR4 compatability.

-But almost twice the cost of a new a77ii.
 
AmyHoover said:
So you've made your point that for ISO performance the a77ii would do the job, but then I don't want 24 megapixel images.

So if the a77 in my test had worse color casting and the a77ii is the slight improvement that the DXO score shows then it may be the same as the a57, or best case scenario, better, but probably not noticeable. So the a57 sensor is nearly as good noise wise as the a77ii. Not a convincing reason to spend so much more money IMO. Especially since we have the need for at least 5 of these camera bodies in use at one time.

I'd rather spend the money on another used a99. First one we bought in june only had 10k shutter count for $1350. And no autofocus adjustment needed for all of our non-minolta lenses.
Click to expand...
Then buy A57s or used A99 or whatever you like. But it is not reasonable to expect the rest of Sony camera users to be held back because of your preference for lower pixel densities. There is no doubt at all that higher pixel densities produce higher resolution. It can be demonstrated theoretically and by direct experimental measurement. It is beyond reasonable doubt.

As computers get faster and faster and storage becomes cheaper and cheaper, citing file sizes is the weakest of reasons for avoiding higher resolution sensors. It is living in the past. Of course somebody will no doubt cite an edge use case where the fastest possible processing times are paramount, but to most users and particularly users of an entry level body that will be irrelevant. Need faster processing times? Get a faster computer. Computers are not exactly a lifetime investment and are likely to be replaced every few years anyway.

In the end, the A68 is what it is. Sony have put together a feature package that they consider to be attractive to the market in a particular price band that can be put together at commensurate cost. It's not going to please everybody - nothing ever does.
 
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craig66 said:
AmyHoover said:
So you've made your point that for ISO performance the a77ii would do the job, but then I don't want 24 megapixel images.

So if the a77 in my test had worse color casting and the a77ii is the slight improvement that the DXO score shows then it may be the same as the a57, or best case scenario, better, but probably not noticeable. So the a57 sensor is nearly as good noise wise as the a77ii. Not a convincing reason to spend so much more money IMO. Especially since we have the need for at least 5 of these camera bodies in use at one time.

I'd rather spend the money on another used a99. First one we bought in june only had 10k shutter count for $1350. And no autofocus adjustment needed for all of our non-minolta lenses.
Click to expand...
Then buy A57s or used A99 or whatever you like. But it is not reasonable to expect the rest of Sony camera users to be held back because of your preference for lower pixel densities. There is no doubt at all that higher pixel densities produce higher resolution. It can be demonstrated theoretically and by direct experimental measurement. It is beyond reasonable doubt.

As computers get faster and faster and storage becomes cheaper and cheaper, citing file sizes is the weakest of reasons for avoiding higher resolution sensors. It is living in the past. Of course somebody will no doubt cite an edge use case where the fastest possible processing times are paramount, but to most users and particularly users of an entry level body that will be irrelevant. Need faster processing times? Get a faster computer. Computers are not exactly a lifetime investment and are likely to be replaced every few years anyway.

In the end, the A68 is what it is. Sony have put together a feature package that they consider to be attractive to the market in a particular price band that can be put together at commensurate cost. It's not going to please everybody - nothing ever does.
Click to expand...
Reminding Sony of what is important to some - that lower pixel density can provide better image quality if extreme resolution isn't needed (a7s as an example) may increase the chances of getting better sensors on these cameras for those of us who prefer it OR at least maybe get the option to shoot with RAW files reduced to a desired MP resolution - to allow more images in a burst and quicker emptying of the buffer - much desired features for sports photographers.

Smaller images are faster to render and edit on any speed computer. Yes buying a new computer would help but we already use multiple quad core i7 systems for simultaneous rendering of projects.

It would have been better to the core alpha users make a better a77 type camera with more features. You hit a point with me: Sony seems more interested in sales than in keeping the alpha system truly alive with new R&D.
 
For the ultimate in low ISO performance, you know which camera to get. And your A mount cameras still work with that particular (now two) Sony cameras. Now, do I want Sony to continue to develop A mount cameras? Yes. Most people have neglected to mention that there is a five month lag time between the A68 announcement and availability. That is unusually long. My take on this is that Sony has other cameras that it will be announcing. I would not be surprised to see an A99 replacement announced before March 2016. And since the A77II will be almost two years old by then, the A77II replacement may be announced shortly before (or shortly after) the A68 goes on sale.

All the big camera makers are offering updated APS-C cameras with resolution beyond 20mp. I hope you can buy all the A57's that you want. It seems like the perfect camera for your needs (and it is cost effective).
 
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