A7rii or RX1RII or Leica m240 or Leica Q

gavjh · Nov 4, 2015

Ok, three of these cameras are at a similar price point (the M is 50% more). So to me they are competition for my investment. I already have a complete Fuji system and the X100T but I'd like to jump up in quality which is why i'm looking at these 4.

I tend to shoot between 21mm and 50mm (fav being the 35). So all suit my style I think. I love the technical excellence appeal of the Sony's and the purity and feel of the Leica's. I'm on a slow burn weighing up the options.

Any advice / thoughts / debate from the community?

Donny out of Element here · Nov 4, 2015

gavjh said:
Ok, three of these cameras are at a similar price point (the M is 50% more). So to me they are competition for my investment. I already have a complete Fuji system and the X100T but I'd like to jump up in quality which is why i'm looking at these 4.

I tend to shoot between 21mm and 50mm (fav being the 35). So all suit my style I think. I love the technical excellence appeal of the Sony's and the purity and feel of the Leica's. I'm on a slow burn weighing up the options.

Any advice / thoughts / debate from the community?

RX1RII (compared to Leica Q) is smaller, lighter, cheaper and IMHO offers better ultimate IQ (and I don't only mean 42Mp). I think besides "Leica" label Leica Q model came too late too little. Still if we pretend for a moment that RX1RII was never announced - then Leica Q is a unique camera.

A7RII (compared to Leica m240) is again smaller, lighter, cheaper and IMHO offers better ultimate IQ and some more on top of that - like 4K, S35 mode and more. BTW both Sony cameras have tilting rear screen unlike Leica. It's more versatile than Leica. However, (unlike the clear winner in RX1RII vs Leica Q) here you face a huge problem: which lens? That magnificent 35mm F2 that is built into RX1RII (and it is clearly better than ANY Leica 35mm lens IMHO) is not available as a separate lens. So you really have 2 choices:

1. Settle for FE35 F1.4 (bulky) or FE35 F2.8 (a bit slow if you prefer buttery smooth OOF and thin DOF) or settle for Loxia 35mm F2 (beautiful, but manual only). Of course there are some other choices like FE55 F1.8 (but it may be too long for you) or Zeiss Batis FE25mm F2 (may be a little wide for you).

2. Wait a bit till Sony announces new 8 FE lenses roadmap. It is rumored to be announced in this month already (November, 2015). There is a chance (a small one) that we will see a high IQ FE35 F2 lens (similar to that 35mm F2 gem inside RX1RII).

Ultimately, if you are perfectly ok with fixed 35mm F2 - go with RX1RII - there won't be any lens for many years (if not decades) to come that will beat this lens. On this forum a year ago I saw a comparison of RX1R (previous gen.model) and Leica 35mm F2 Summicron lens and RX1R lens destroyed Leica lens and wiped the floor with it. Was especially visible difference in sharpness and clarity.

All IMHO.

aknyc · Nov 4, 2015

gavjh said:
Ok, three of these cameras are at a similar price point (the M is 50% more). So to me they are competition for my investment. I already have a complete Fuji system and the X100T but I'd like to jump up in quality which is why i'm looking at these 4.

I tend to shoot between 21mm and 50mm (fav being the 35). So all suit my style I think. I love the technical excellence appeal of the Sony's and the purity and feel of the Leica's. I'm on a slow burn weighing up the options.

Any advice / thoughts / debate from the community?

I you are a real photographer or a dentist you should get the Leica M

if AF, image stabilizer, 42MP and 4K video is need it, you can rent a sony

No camera is perfect, it all depends what you like to shoot.

FuhTeng · Nov 4, 2015

For that kind of cash I'd rent both the RX1 and Q and take them for test drives. The M is old and the a7RII's bigger (Zony 35 mm f1.4) or slower (Zony 35 f2.8) than what you'll get from the RX1 and Q.

alextardif · Nov 4, 2015

I briefly considered Leica Q as I was about to upgrade to RX1Rii that's being released tomorrow and wanted to what else is out there at this level before committing to another fixed lens camera.

Rented the Q shortly ago. Not for me. 28mm is gorgeous, AF is decent, EVF is good, but it just didn't feel right and the files were not any better than my RX1, definitely not up to the same level as the A7Rii. It's easier to hold than the naked RX1, but I had the RRS grip on my RX1 and it was perfect. By itself, the Q was still awkward to hold, and by the time you add the optional handle, it looses the compact appeal. Many Leica aficionados swear by it and while it's a really nice camera there's nothing magical or incredible about it, obviously. It's not without QA problems either, btw, surprising at this price - do some googling, you'll see what I mean.

So, I was ready to get the RX1Rii tomorrow, but after getting the Loxia 35 recently, I've reconsidered and will be holding off on that purchase: A7Rii or A7Sii +Loxia 35 is really something. IBIS is good enough for at least 2 stops, so at this FL I can get perfect shots at 1/15, which is dimly lit restaurant or something like that. With the Zeiss 1.4 it's even better in low light.

The only reason I see getting RX1Rii now is for it's compactness. My advice is to fight the urge to let go of your $$ and rent before buying.

Arizona Sunset · Nov 4, 2015

R II if you need a system, the 1R II if you don't. Don't underestimate the Sony sensor, or Zeiss optics available for it, for stills.

biza43 · Nov 5, 2015

Two of these cameras are not system cameras, they have fixed lenses. Is that what you want?

Two of the cameras are system ones, both are very good, but the lenses for the Leica M cost substantially more (unless you go the route of ZM or VM lenses).

What are you looking for in terms of "jump in quality"?

Aasmund G · Nov 5, 2015

I am mostly tempted by the RX1, it is much smaller than the other options. And cheaper 2nd hand. If size is not critical then the RII + 35 1.4 is probably best. If you are ok with mf, as in m240, then A7rii + loxia may be a good choice. The q is midway between the RII and the RX1. A more reasonable option is to get the FE 28 F2 + A7II or RII

somersetlad · Nov 5, 2015

I think if you are keeping Fuji as your system - assuming you wish to stay with a system as well - then for me it would be the RX1RII - no contest. If you want a quality jump in the whole system then it gets harder and the A7RII comes up on the inside. Ideal would be as already mentioned - the 35mm Zeiss F2 FE as in RX1RII or as as near as dammit in interchangeable format.
John

DFPanno · Nov 5, 2015

.. you have money burning a hole in your pocket.

The companies and cameras are so different that if you really needed any of them you would have a laser-sharp desire for one or the other.

By way of example the Q is a 28mm lens and the RX1 II is a 35. Most people ready to drop that kind of coin already have a crystal clear understanding of what focal length works best for them. The opinion of strangers would be superfluous.

I think you should come to terms with your real needs (or perceived needs) and then look again.

If money is no object buy them all.

--
¡Viva la Resolución!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dfpanno/
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/dfpanno/popular-interesting/
(On Flickriver check "Scale to Fit Screen" in the upper left drop-down menu)

Chris Joy · Nov 5, 2015

If you want small/light I'd go Rx1rII (awkward name) with the Fe 21mm WA adapter as shown here: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1369103

AF, resolution and DR will all be better on the Sony. If you want to shoot video it'll be better too.

If you want more lens options and higher IQ, A7rII is the way to go.

I really can't see a reason to own a Leica outside of wanting to own a Leica, since you're paying much more for an inferior image. Leica lenses can be used on the A7rII and you don't have to calibrate the rangefinder.

If you want the rangefinder experience there's only one option.

Gary H · Nov 5, 2015

DFPanno said:
.. you have money burning a hole in your pocket.

The companies and cameras are so different that if you really needed any of them you would have a laser-sharp desire for one or the other.

By way of example the Q is a 28mm lens and the RX1 II is a 35. Most people ready to drop that kind of coin already have a crystal clear understanding of what focal length works best for them. The opinion of strangers would be superfluous.

I think you should come to terms with your real needs (or perceived needs) and then look again.

If money is no object buy them all.

Aasmund G · Nov 5, 2015

Gary H said:
Gary H said:

.. you have money burning a hole in your pocket.

The companies and cameras are so different that if you really needed any of them you would have a laser-sharp desire for one or the other.

Click to expand...

They are different, yes but if your main goal is high-IQ wide-angle photography, they are all valid options.

Gary H said:
Gary H said:

By way of example the Q is a 28mm lens and the RX1 II is a 35.

Click to expand...

Cropping 28mm to 35 is a very modest crop. so even if you would be a pure 35 shooter 28 might be relevant.

Gary H said:
Gary H said:

Most people ready to drop that kind of coin already have a crystal clear understanding of what focal length works best for them.

Click to expand...

How is your budget related to having a pinpointed need? if you are willing to get the 240, you are most likely quite affluent and reasonably busy.

Gary H said:
Gary H said:

The opinion of strangers would be superfluous.

Click to expand...

Cameras are different in real life from spec sheets etc.

Gary H said:
Gary H said:

.

Click to expand...

The quoted response is the most helpful one in this thread. Take it and run.

I completely disagree. I think this question in it's various guises is one of the most fundamental choices. Most fixed focal length cameras are around 35mm equivalent, including nearly all smartphones. None are perfect. Figuring out the right trade-off seems a very sensible and normal question, where other people's experience can be invaluable.

As an example, I would say lens speed, camera size and OSS is more important than focal length. For example, my A7+35 f2.8 is really too slow for most lower light uses.

gavjh · Nov 5, 2015

Aasmund G said:
Gary H said:

Aasmund G said:

.. you have money burning a hole in your pocket.

The companies and cameras are so different that if you really needed any of them you would have a laser-sharp desire for one or the other.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

They are different, yes but if your main goal is high-IQ wide-angle photography, they are all valid options.

Aasmund G said:

Aasmund G said:

By way of example the Q is a 28mm lens and the RX1 II is a 35.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Cropping 28mm to 35 is a very modest crop. so even if you would be a pure 35 shooter 28 might be relevant.

Aasmund G said:

Aasmund G said:

Most people ready to drop that kind of coin already have a crystal clear understanding of what focal length works best for them.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

How is your budget related to having a pinpointed need? if you are willing to get the 240, you are most likely quite affluent and reasonably busy.

Aasmund G said:

Aasmund G said:

The opinion of strangers would be superfluous.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Cameras are different in real life from spec sheets etc.

Aasmund G said:

Aasmund G said:

.

Click to expand...

The quoted response is the most helpful one in this thread. Take it and run.

Click to expand...

I completely disagree. I think this question in it's various guises is one of the most fundamental choices. Most fixed focal length cameras are around 35mm equivalent, including nearly all smartphones. None are perfect. Figuring out the right trade-off seems a very sensible and normal question, where other people's experience can be invaluable.

As an example, I would say lens speed, camera size and OSS is more important than focal length. For example, my A7+35 f2.8 is really too slow for most lower light uses.

Thanks to all for the opinions. The reason I posted the question is that I don't have hands on experience with these cameras yet. Many of you do. To listen to how these cameras make you feel and whether they suit your needs is helpful as it often brings considerations I may not think of myself.

I like the way everyone here is breaking down the arguments for and against each of the above.

Most are right that I don't really need any of these. But I do want. In fact I want all the cameras, not just these all. They all bring joy in their own way. I can't afford that obviously, not would my wife approve.

What I do value is discovering many of you who discuss these cameras value similar things from their camera. Small, discreet, great image quality, a feeling you get using the device etc.

Part of the fun in planning your next purchase is debate over relative merits.

Arizona Sunset · Nov 5, 2015

gavjh said:
Ok, three of these cameras are at a similar price point (the M is 50% more). So to me they are competition for my investment. I already have a complete Fuji system and the X100T but I'd like to jump up in quality which is why i'm looking at these 4.

I tend to shoot between 21mm and 50mm (fav being the 35). So all suit my style I think. I love the technical excellence appeal of the Sony's and the purity and feel of the Leica's. I'm on a slow burn weighing up the options.

Any advice / thoughts / debate from the community?

Agree with the rx1rii being a better compliment to Fuji. It's a dangerous road though - you will be hesitant on crop sensors after that camera.

SonyRX1 · Nov 5, 2015

This question is impossible to answer without knowing......

1. Do you shoot video?

2. Do you want to change lenses?

3. Do you want autofocus?

4. How important is manual focusing?

5. Do you want image stabilization?

6. Does size matter to you?

7. Do you shoot often in environments that require high ISO?

8. Do you want a tilting LCD?

9. Do you prefer 24MP or 42MP?

10,. Do you push your shadows/highlights a lot when post-processing?

11. Do you shoot macro?

First answer the questions above and list them in order of priority. Then we can give you some solid advice.

gavjh · Nov 5, 2015

Ooh... I like this game.. thanks for the questions! Will help me, even if you don't respond again!

SonyRX1 said:
This question is impossible to answer without knowing......

1. Do you shoot video?

Not much, would like to do more...

SonyRX1 said:
2. Do you want to change lenses?

No... but I do want to use different focal lengths as an option.... but that's not necessarily a consideration for this purchase as I have that flexibility with my current kit already... this is a heart purchase... should I brave doing it.

SonyRX1 said:
3. Do you want autofocus?

Yes or No... I can shoot either way, the option to do both is even better (obviously best excited on the Q in my opinion)

SonyRX1 said:
4. How important is manual focusing?

See above

SonyRX1 said:
5. Do you want image stabilization?

It's a nice to have, not a must have

SonyRX1 said:
6. Does size matter to you?

YES. the smaller the better.

SonyRX1 said:
7. Do you shoot often in environments that require high ISO?

No... i'm overly fussy about this so much I annoy myself with it... I shoot as low as I can... to the detriment of not getting all the shots I should.

SonyRX1 said:
8. Do you want a tilting LCD?

It's better than not having it by far.

SonyRX1 said:
9. Do you prefer 24MP or 42MP?

File size... 24mp... Being able to blow up my landscapes 42mp

SonyRX1 said:
10,. Do you push your shadows/highlights a lot when post-processing?

Yes I do, though i'm using filters (Lee Seven5) a lot more.

SonyRX1 said:
11. Do you shoot macro?

No, but always fancied giving it a go... but I'd by a 1:1 lens for that, so not necessarily relevant to this purchase.

SonyRX1 said:
First answer the questions above and list them in order of priority. Then we can give you some solid advice.

Ooh... tough one... er... i'll pick the top three in no order rather than rank them.... 6, 10 and the feeling I get when using it (I know that's not on the list, but it's the intangible effect)

Thanks for this, I enjoyed that.

gavjh · Nov 5, 2015

Donny out of Element here said:
gavjh said:

Ok, three of these cameras are at a similar price point (the M is 50% more). So to me they are competition for my investment. I already have a complete Fuji system and the X100T but I'd like to jump up in quality which is why i'm looking at these 4.

I tend to shoot between 21mm and 50mm (fav being the 35). So all suit my style I think. I love the technical excellence appeal of the Sony's and the purity and feel of the Leica's. I'm on a slow burn weighing up the options.

Any advice / thoughts / debate from the community?

Click to expand...

RX1RII (compared to Leica Q) is smaller, lighter, cheaper and IMHO offers better ultimate IQ (and I don't only mean 42Mp). I think besides "Leica" label Leica Q model came too late too little. Still if we pretend for a moment that RX1RII was never announced - then Leica Q is a unique camera.

I think technically, the Sony wins this one... but the Q really has something... the simplicity and the seamless integration of the manual vs autofocus.

Donny out of Element here said:
A7RII (compared to Leica m240) is again smaller, lighter, cheaper and IMHO offers better ultimate IQ and some more on top of that - like 4K, S35 mode and more. BTW both Sony cameras have tilting rear screen unlike Leica. It's more versatile than Leica. However, (unlike the clear winner in RX1RII vs Leica Q) here you face a huge problem: which lens? That magnificent 35mm F2 that is built into RX1RII (and it is clearly better than ANY Leica 35mm lens IMHO) is not available as a separate lens. So you really have 2 choices:

1. Settle for FE35 F1.4 (bulky) or FE35 F2.8 (a bit slow if you prefer buttery smooth OOF and thin DOF) or settle for Loxia 35mm F2 (beautiful, but manual only). Of course there are some other choices like FE55 F1.8 (but it may be too long for you) or Zeiss Batis FE25mm F2 (may be a little wide for you).

2. Wait a bit till Sony announces new 8 FE lenses roadmap. It is rumored to be announced in this month already (November, 2015). There is a chance (a small one) that we will see a high IQ FE35 F2 lens (similar to that 35mm F2 gem inside RX1RII).

I'm interested to see what these are too, the lenses on the FE system that appeal to me are the small ones (and one large one), notably the loxia's, the 38, the 35 2.8, the 55 and the 70-200 (oddly)

Donny out of Element here said:
Ultimately, if you are perfectly ok with fixed 35mm F2 - go with RX1RII - there won't be any lens for many years (if not decades) to come that will beat this lens. On this forum a year ago I saw a comparison of RX1R (previous gen.model) and Leica 35mm F2 Summicron lens and RX1R lens destroyed Leica lens and wiped the floor with it. Was especially visible difference in sharpness and clarity.

All IMHO.

Do you have a link to that last thread or the forum category I can search on by any chance? Thanks for you comments... very helpful to me.

gavjh · Nov 5, 2015

aknyc said:
gavjh said:

Ok, three of these cameras are at a similar price point (the M is 50% more). So to me they are competition for my investment. I already have a complete Fuji system and the X100T but I'd like to jump up in quality which is why i'm looking at these 4.

I tend to shoot between 21mm and 50mm (fav being the 35). So all suit my style I think. I love the technical excellence appeal of the Sony's and the purity and feel of the Leica's. I'm on a slow burn weighing up the options.

Any advice / thoughts / debate from the community?

Click to expand...

I you are a real photographer or a dentist you should get the Leica M

I'm neither... am I still allowed it? ;-)

aknyc said:
if AF, image stabilizer, 42MP and 4K video is need it, you can rent a sony

No camera is perfect, it all depends what you like to shoot.

This last comment sums it up doesn't it... if we all designed out own... i'm sure we'd get some very interesting cameras... for me... hmm.... maybe i'll set up a thread for that very question... could be fun. Thanks for you comments.

aknyc said:
--
Alex K, New York
http://www.alexk.com/

gavjh · Nov 5, 2015

FuhTeng said:
For that kind of cash I'd rent both the RX1 and Q and take them for test drives. The M is old and the a7RII's bigger (Zony 35 mm f1.4) or slower (Zony 35 f2.8) than what you'll get from the RX1 and Q.

A7rii or RX1RII or Leica m240 or Leica Q

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