S2 or 10D

Undecided as what to go for, the S2 or the 10D, it seems to be a very close thing. Both have their pluses and minuses. I have just been reading in the Canon group about someone asking the three best things and the three worse things about the Canon. The main dislikes seem to be no spot metering, slow startup and write times and blown highlights. Anyone any opinions on the three best and worst with the S2? I realise this has been an ongoing discussion, and for those of you that have your camera, it's no longer an issue. However, if anyone would like to offer their views, I'd be grateful. If not, I understand. ;-)
Thanks
Frank

I am an S2 owner, and I think the most important benefit of chosing the S2 instead of any other digital SLR in the same price level, is it's superior resolution. I read that some photo magazine had done some tests and concluded that the S2 has an resolution aproximately equal to 8 or 9 Megapixels. By experience I can say that the 12 megapixel (super CCD) mode gives a bit more resolution than all other 'standard' CCD based digital SLR cameras (including the 6 megapixel mode on the S2 itself). My approximation would be about 8 megapixel.
I have yet not seen any test where the D10 gives more resolution than the S2.

The worst thing about the S2, I think, is that it's easy to change the focus/evaluation-point by mistake. Especially if you're left-eyed as me.

The D10 (If I'm not mistaken) can show you where the blown out highlights are located after taking a pic, enabling you to quickly re-shoot if necessary. The S2 also blows out highlights quite easily, but it's hard to see on the little LCD-monitor. I always use spot metering to avoid this. I could not live without spot metering.

Another bad thing about the S2 is it's design. The D10 is smaller and easier to carry.

omeyas said:

Undecided as what to go for, the S2 or the 10D, it seems to be a
very close thing. Both have their pluses and minuses. I have just
been reading in the Canon group about someone asking the three best
things and the three worse things about the Canon. The main
dislikes seem to be no spot metering, slow startup and write times
and blown highlights. Anyone any opinions on the three best and
worst with the S2? I realise this has been an ongoing discussion,
and for those of you that have your camera, it's no longer an
issue. However, if anyone would like to offer their views, I'd be
grateful. If not, I understand. ;-)
Thanks
Frank

Click to expand...

Hi omeyas

Wow, you're still undecided?
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=5579453

If you have any descent lenses for canon or Nikon just get the camera that the lenses work on. I think that you will be happy with any of the 3 cameras (even though you only asked about the s2 and 10D). The 10D would be cheaper and the lenses also look to be less expensive so if money is a deciding factor...get the 10D. Obviously, anyone with an S2 has made the S2 their choice.... and anyone with a 10d... well, you get the idea. Just make a choice, go get it and start having fun with your new toy.

Hmmmm.. 3 things i like most..

colors...great right out of camera...especially with a custom wb set

ease of use........ It only took a few minutes to explain the cameras features to my g/f....now that’s easy )

spot metering..... makes it real easy for me to get the exposure that I want.

Things I don't like....

Fuji should have given everyone the EX software...or better yet..... let adobe have the source code so that they could use it and improve it. This would eliminate probably 1/2 the posts in this forum that have anything negative to say about Fuji...

Small viewfinder...I'd love to have the viewfinder from the D1 series camera...the fuji viewfinder is pretty small and it makes it hard for someone wearing glasses to see the entire frame along with all of the camera information that is displayed in the viewfinder.

Improved histogram... I'd love it if the histogram actually showed when you were clipping the highlights.

Tim

2-3 weeks ago one of my friend visited me with a 10D in his hand. We wanted to compare my S2 with his 10D. First of all, he was a bit sad leaving my home.

The details.

10D had EF IS 70-200 F2.8 lens
S2 had 80-400 VR f4.5-5.6D

Both have image stabilization system. I thought Canon pic will be sharper, because I had no overstated opinion about my slow lens. I was wrong however...

Canon zoomed to 200 mm (approx 320 mm eq) and S2 is around the same, but as you can see on the pics, Canon got closer a little bit to the subject, so this added more chance to get more resolution, though this had not helped. Evenmore, as you can see when we shoot with the Canon, the far subjects were in sunlight, and S2 got shadow there, and Canon's F was 9 (or something like that), I had aroung 6.7, this means less DOF for S2, so the advantage was at Canon. Neither this helped...

I've reduced S2s pic to the 10D dimensions, 3072 x whatever

Now here are the pics:

S2 first



Then 10D



Believe or not S2's color is the realty. However I was not wondering on this. My experience is that S2 reproduces better the greens and the skin tones.

On the S2 pics you can see red frames. They are critical areas. You can download the full res pics from

http://www.teco.hu/photo

page.

Get closer to the top frame on both pictures. Study the fences. As you can see 10D has no details. Even that part is in shadow on S2, and in sunlight on Canon, too. Moreover the green small building color on Canon's shot is not valid. Do not forget Canon was on F9... and S2 at F6.7, and despite of this S2 pic is superior on 10D.

Although you can see some halo on S2 pics, but I've shoot w/sharpening OFF. If you try to add some USM to Canon's pics, you will get no more details but more halo and more noise.

See the bottom/right red frame, and take closer to the shadows on balcony. You will see there less resolution and more noise. Both cameras have been set to ISO 100, btw.

Another test with wide angle lenses. Preface. 1-2 weeks before this test my friend gave in to my hand his 10D with a 16-35 F2.8 lens, and when I tried to shot I said immediatelly that it seems to me the focusing is slightly slower to S2. Not too much, but if you can understand me, on long run anyone can "learn" or memorize the rythm of his camera, and 10D played a bit slower. When I mentioned this my friend, he was laughing and told why I don't go in to the hell, this lens is the fastest currently in Canon line. Hmmm. Now, we can back to this test. So we assembled to the 10D the 16-35 and 17-35 F2.8 to S2. Moved the focus to infinity and focused then to the same subject 2 m far. AND I WAS RIGHT, YES 10D is slower, definitelly slower. By decimal seconds, but slower. Not so important, however.

With WA lenses we got the same result. Canon pic had less details and more noise than the S2.

Anyway. Comparing those gears is similar to comparing a BMW and Mercedes. Almost the question of taste, because 10D is an excellent camera, the differences are not so tragical, often. Printing the result on A4 paper, well, you need good magnifier to discover them.

10D is lighter, but needs spec. battery. I like S2 system, because I can buy AA battery even in jungle or desert. S2 works without Li batteries with small compromise, so I disagree with the people who says S2 dual baterry system is uncomfortable. Several times saved my life.

10D has fast spec. flash syncron up to 1/4000. There are several circumstances when S2 cannot be used. Just imagine a situation on sport, you have strong backlight behind of runner, so you have to cast or bounce with flash. You cannot shot this because the 1/125 is too slow for a runner movement. Or you can do that w/o flash, but the back will be overexposured, that is ugly.

From the otherhand the METZ flashes work better with Nikon body based gears, and (it is my personal opinion) those flashes are the best.

One old photgrapher told me (he has several Canon and Nikon cams), Canon is more innovative than Nikon, so the latter just follows often the first one, but finally Nikon releases better solutions "stealing" the Canon ideas. I don;t know what is the truth, but I trust this guy, he has no interest to lie.

1. I like he superb resolution of S2
2. I like the high fidelity colour reproduction
3. I like the weight and handling of S2 (I'm 110 Kg)

4...99 Low noise even at 1600, spot metering, simple battery system, good lenses (is true just for expensive ones), I have no problems with EX software - like several people on this forum, though I shot just in RAW, so I utilize it well, ...and so on

1. I dislike the small V/finder, what cheats even covering 10%
2. I dislike the small LCD
3. I'm unhappy because of slow flash sysncron

4...99

...I have to think what else I should mention. Certainly I could say some more problem, but... in general I have no problems. I like this gear very much. All of pictures taken with it been technically flawless, except if it was intentional.

My feeling is that 10D is a good camera, very-very good, but - perhaps - I would need to take more compromises with it, than with S2.

I am an S1Pro, F5 and N90X user at work and own a lot of Minolta gears at home. I am also a big fan of S2Pro and almost bought one a few weeks back. But if I come across a similar situation like you, I will prefer 10D to S2Pro because

1. Canon has a much larger user base and all accessories are significantly less expensive than Nikon, not to mention Minolta.

An example is 70-200/2.8 lens with HSM and IS which is sold around 1K USD here but you cannot get one for 1.5K

2. The ultrasonic motor and image stabilising technology found in Nikon lenses are licensed from Canon. You pay both money to Nikon for the lens as well as licentiation fee to Canon

3. My biggest interest is nature and wildlife photogrphy (in the future). The investment on longer telephoto like 600/4 requires much more consideration for one with limited budget like me.

However, since I have already owned a number of Nikon/Fujifilm cameras, I will go for S3Pro/D2H/D2X for general photography.

I hope this will not confuse you.

--
Mark K
http://www.pbase.com/mark_k

Good things.

1- Great resolution, especially at 12 meg raw. I routinely make 2' x 3' prints that look comparable to my Hassy prints of the same size. Actually better because the 2 1/4 by 2 1/4 needs cropping.
2- Very little noise, especially at higher ISOs.
3-Quick downloading with Firewire.

Bad things.
1- The inconvience of having to keep two different sets of extra batteries.
2- Needs a bigger view finder image (as does the 10D)

3- Not good for novices. Easy to select wrong focusing area. The camera defaults to closest subject matter. Needs to be programmed to select center area as default. Easy to do except most people don't read manuals.

When used with Nikon lenses produces excellent color with few highlight blow outs. Startup time is QUICK. Has spot metering.

Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com

omeyas said:

Undecided as what to go for, the S2 or the 10D, it seems to be a
very close thing. Both have their pluses and minuses. I have just
been reading in the Canon group about someone asking the three best
things and the three worse things about the Canon. The main
dislikes seem to be no spot metering, slow startup and write times
and blown highlights. Anyone any opinions on the three best and
worst with the S2? I realise this has been an ongoing discussion,
and for those of you that have your camera, it's no longer an
issue. However, if anyone would like to offer their views, I'd be
grateful. If not, I understand. ;-)
Thanks
Frank

Click to expand...

--
Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com

hello omeyas,

the canon's bulit is no doubt better constructed. S2 does feel rather plasticky. This is not so much of an issue to me as i'm not expecting to keep my camera for more than 5 years. Digital cameras value depreciates in value exponentially...

so in 5 years..A leica will still be a leica...but a 5yr old digital camera will be ...well..

AND

what's the point of having a dslr with no spot metering AND a STARTUP time? better off saving the though and getting a point and shoot for that matter.

cheers

Brandon

omeyas said:

Undecided as what to go for, the S2 or the 10D, it seems to be a
very close thing. Both have their pluses and minuses. I have just
been reading in the Canon group about someone asking the three best
things and the three worse things about the Canon. The main
dislikes seem to be no spot metering, slow startup and write times
and blown highlights. Anyone any opinions on the three best and
worst with the S2? I realise this has been an ongoing discussion,
and for those of you that have your camera, it's no longer an
issue. However, if anyone would like to offer their views, I'd be
grateful. If not, I understand. ;-)
Thanks
Frank

Click to expand...

I photograph mostly people and mostly indoors. Flash photography is very importatn for me. I use flash 95% of the time. 10D + 550ex flash seems to produce better result compare to S2 with any flash. I have more consistant result with 10D ETTL compare to my S2 TTL. Oh, yeah and also faster sync. Sample below taken in aperture priority, flash in ETTL, metering center weighted and flash bounced off built in reflector.



My 2¢.

brandon said:

the canon's bulit is no doubt better constructed. S2 does feel
rather plasticky. This is not so much of an issue to me as i'm not
expecting to keep my camera for more than 5 years. Digital cameras
value depreciates in value exponentially...
so in 5 years..A leica will still be a leica...but a 5yr old
digital camera will be ...well..

AND

what's the point of having a dslr with no spot metering AND a
STARTUP time? better off saving the though and getting a point and
shoot for that matter.

cheers

Brandon

omeyas said:

Undecided as what to go for, the S2 or the 10D, it seems to be a
very close thing. Both have their pluses and minuses. I have just
been reading in the Canon group about someone asking the three best
things and the three worse things about the Canon. The main
dislikes seem to be no spot metering, slow startup and write times
and blown highlights. Anyone any opinions on the three best and
worst with the S2? I realise this has been an ongoing discussion,
and for those of you that have your camera, it's no longer an
issue. However, if anyone would like to offer their views, I'd be
grateful. If not, I understand. ;-)
Thanks
Frank

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

omeyas said:

Undecided as what to go for, the S2 or the 10D,

Click to expand...

Like (love) :

1) sharpness, almost like a 1Ds. It kills 10D and D100 (this is the main reason why I bought although I've a D100 as well)
2) jpeg out of the camera. Simply the best
3) low noise, again, the best in the industry

Dislike :

1) RAW software (a joke but Canon isn't great as well)
2) batteries type (we are in the 2003 Fuji...). They have longevity though.
3) nothing else really

As a bonus:

Advantages of the Nikon system. You have all the Nikon lenses (now very comparable to Canon) but you have bodies coming from 3 different companies Fuji, Nikon, Kodak.

This is a major plus since you can eventually have a second body with a different mix of plus and minus and use all your lenses.

The choices available with the Nikon system are incredible. Canon don't get even close. I bought the D100 and now I've also the S2 preservi all my investment in lenses.

--
Regards
Gabriele Sartori

omeyas said:

Undecided as what to go for, the S2 or the 10D, it seems to be a
very close thing. Both have their pluses and minuses. I have just
been reading in the Canon group about someone asking the three best
things and the three worse things about the Canon. The main
dislikes seem to be no spot metering, slow startup and write times
and blown highlights. Anyone any opinions on the three best and
worst with the S2? I realise this has been an ongoing discussion,
and for those of you that have your camera, it's no longer an
issue. However, if anyone would like to offer their views, I'd be
grateful. If not, I understand. ;-)
Thanks
Frank

Click to expand...

--

The best comparison test I seen done between both cameras was on Gary Fongs Web site and it's a real eye opener. Good sharp images from both cameras and beyond a doubt the S2 wins.

Go to: http://www.digitalphotographers.net/
and on the main page look for,
IT'S HERE- THE TORTURE-TEST COMPARISON OF THE EOS10D and the FUJI S2

Time & Images share one common basis. In a moment they're gone!
Capture the moment!
David Smith, Digital Photography

TimT said:

Hi omeyas

Wow, you're still undecided?

Click to expand...

Yes TIm, I am! ;-) It's a tight contest, plus I'm still using the 602, so it's not as if I'm without a camera, I don't have to buy one tomorrow. One day, it's definitely the S2, the next day, it's the 10D. Talking with some local dealers, and they all came out on the side of the 10D, that threw me a bit! I have no lenses at all, if I did of course, that would make it a lot easier.
Thanks for your input, and to all the others who have replied.
Thanks
Frank

Mark K said:

I am an S1Pro, F5 and N90X user at work and own a lot of Minolta
gears at home. I am also a big fan of S2Pro and almost bought one a
few weeks back. But if I come across a similar situation like you,
I will prefer 10D to S2Pro because
1. Canon has a much larger user base and all accessories are
significantly less expensive than Nikon, not to mention Minolta.
An example is 70-200/2.8 lens with HSM and IS which is sold around
1K USD here but you cannot get one for 1.5K
2. The ultrasonic motor and image stabilising technology found in
Nikon lenses are licensed from Canon. You pay both money to Nikon
for the lens as well as licentiation fee to Canon
3. My biggest interest is nature and wildlife photogrphy (in the
future). The investment on longer telephoto like 600/4 requires
much more consideration for one with limited budget like me.

However, since I have already owned a number of Nikon/Fujifilm
cameras, I will go for S3Pro/D2H/D2X for general photography.

I hope this will not confuse you.

--
Mark K
http://www.pbase.com/mark_k

Click to expand...

Thanks Mark, what's this limited budget, you've been globetrotting all over the world by the looks of your photographs! ;-)

As an aside, in your address on your profile page you have your address as @XXXXXX.com.uk", should it be .CO.uk? OR is that deliberate?
Cheers
Frank

Laszlo Szakalos said:

2-3 weeks ago one of my friend visited me with a 10D in his hand.
We wanted to compare my S2 with his 10D.

Click to expand...

Thanks Lazlo, for a very comprehensive reply. I think without doubt, the shots coming directly out of the S2 seem to be better, it's an acknowledged fact that the 10D needs more work in Photoshop afterwards. That's not a problem for me, I know more about that side than choosing cameras! ;-). Batteries ditto, not a problem that would concern me either way. I'd be happy with the S2, plus they reckon that the 10D is good for 500-600 shots on one battery. So carrying a spare, I could never see me wanting to shot over 1,000 photos in one day!
Thanks again for your input.
Frank

Steve Bingham said:

Bad things.
1- The inconvience of having to keep two different sets of extra
batteries.
2- Needs a bigger view finder image (as does the 10D)
3- Not good for novices. Easy to select wrong focusing area. The
camera defaults to closest subject matter. Needs to be programmed
to select center area as default. Easy to do except most people
don't read manuals.

When used with Nikon lenses produces excellent color with few
highlight blow outs. Startup time is QUICK. Has spot metering.

Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com

omeyas said:

Undecided as what to go for, the S2 or the 10D, it seems to be a
very close thing. Both have their pluses and minuses. I have just
been reading in the Canon group about someone asking the three best
things and the three worse things about the Canon. The main
dislikes seem to be no spot metering, slow startup and write times
and blown highlights. Anyone any opinions on the three best and
worst with the S2? I realise this has been an ongoing discussion,
and for those of you that have your camera, it's no longer an
issue. However, if anyone would like to offer their views, I'd be
grateful. If not, I understand. ;-)
Thanks
Frank

Click to expand...

--
Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com

Click to expand...

Thanks Steve. Enjoyed your webpage, by the way!

brandon said:

so in 5 years..A leica will still be a leica...but a 5yr old
digital camera will be ...well..

Click to expand...

Digital cameras are like cars, they are there to do a job, they both depreciate 20% as soon as they leave the showroom, but that doesn't stop the majority of users trading up to a new one either when the old one dies or when the next model comes out.

Leica, I know they're good cameras, but IMO prices are artificially high due to the cult following...

As for S2 or 10D, well, S2 users will recommend the S2. 10D users will recommend the 10D until they switch. ;-)

.

.Ray said:

As for S2 or 10D, well, S2 users will recommend the S2. 10D users
will recommend the 10D until they switch. ;-)

Click to expand...

I'm sure you are correct, but unlikely as it may seem, at least to me, there are people in these groups, that have, or have had both cameras, so it's possible to get a comparison. Few would admit to buying something they don't like, but I've had some good feedback from the people here.
Thanks
Frank

The images are naturally soft, and this is the way it is meant to be to preserve as much digital information as possible.

Images from the 10D will take as much as 200% at up to 1.5 pixels in Unsharp mask.

This camera is very fast, i have owned a number of digitals and have a background for over 30years in SLR's.

Most of the people complaining about the camera and or lenses just do not know enough about the intricacies of photography to realise they have to do some work and acquire techniques to get great shots.
Put an ordinary lens on any camera and you will get poor results.
Check out Phil's reviews and speed comparisons to get to the truth.

Check out the link below,all images have been reduced in size ,so have suffered by compression but I still think they give a fairly good idea of what th camera is capable of doing.

The S2 takes 2.3 secs to write the next shot after an 8 frame burst
The Canon 10D takes 1.1 secs to write the next shot after a 9 frame burst.

Based on that information, I don't know who you are listening to but they obviously haven't got a camera and don't read the reviews.

omeyas said:

Undecided as what to go for, the S2 or the 10D, it seems to be a
very close thing. Both have their pluses and minuses. I have just
been reading in the Canon group about someone asking the three best
things and the three worse things about the Canon. The main
dislikes seem to be no spot metering, slow startup and write times
and blown highlights. Anyone any opinions on the three best and
worst with the S2? I realise this has been an ongoing discussion,
and for those of you that have your camera, it's no longer an
issue. However, if anyone would like to offer their views, I'd be
grateful. If not, I understand. ;-)
Thanks
Frank

Click to expand...

--
http://www.fototime.com/inv/2DE8A73EF9811C6

Frank

I am rather in a similar situation as you are. S2Pro has a better image quality with examples you can find here
http://avbuzz.htfriends.net/cc/cc.htm

However, 10D offers something more than image quality like faster response time, less expensive and a whole line of high quality less expensive lenses.
Maybe maybe the newer S3Pro will provide us with a solution.

--
Mark K
http://www.pbase.com/mark_k

Mark K said:

Frank
I am rather in a similar situation as you are. S2Pro has a better
image quality with examples you can find here
http://avbuzz.htfriends.net/cc/cc.htm

Click to expand...

Super shots, she's a very attractive girl!

Mark K said:

However, 10D offers something more than image quality like faster
response time, less expensive and a whole line of high quality less
expensive lenses.
Maybe maybe the newer S3Pro will provide us with a solution.

Click to expand...

Maybe! It'll probably be announced they day after I buy an S2! Or a 10D!

Regards
Frank

Mark K said:

However, 10D offers something more than image quality like faster
response time

Click to expand...

Hi Mark,

I'm on the fence myself and don't really have a lot of educated comments for either camp, but owning an S2, I must admit I'm intrigued by your comment. Faster response time? What specifically are you referring to? If it is shutter lag, I agree with you. But the wake up time on the S2 is instant, really instant, and on the 10D, it's around 3-4 seconds - borderline unacceptable for candids. Going from review mode to shooting mode, another important function is also compltely instant on the S2, don't know about the 10D. So, pleae elaborate.

Happy shooting,

Freddy