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Canon's mirrorless strategy: doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome.

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J A C S said:
Potemkin_Photo said:
J A C S said:
tedolf said:
And now you know why the market for the M is so small in the U.S.

Copperswede is Canon's target market for the M, and they design it as an accessory.

That is why nobody else is interested.
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"Nobody" in the US is interested in the m43 either.
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?! Hardly seems like an accurate statement. See them all the time in my hood, courtesy of the $299 bod + lense deals going on all the time.
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My BB does not carry any of them, and has ~7-8 Canon and as many Nikon dSLRs, not just Rebels and D3xxx. It carries A6000 and the lower end Sony (A5000?). I see one m43 per ten Nikon/Canon/Sony when I travel.
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Most people I know don't waste gas money to visit Bum Buy anyways. It's all slickdeals and waiting patiently for the best deals. Lots of m4/3 where I'm am it. Not saying I'm a M4/3 devotee just an observation. If the price is right... the clicker will follow...
 
Make stupidly good and cheap lenses that people without a Canon camera cant access. Invoke feelings of jealousy and inadequacy in non Canon users to such a degree that they are forced to buy a Canon camera. Profit.
 
4everAnoob said:
Make stupidly good and cheap lenses that people without a Canon camera cant access. Invoke feelings of jealousy and inadequacy in non Canon users to such a degree that they are forced to buy a Canon camera. Profit.
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And how exactly do you market that advantsge to the average consumer?

The first lens people buy is the kit lens that comes with their camera. Kit prices are comparable across all brands. The second lens most people buy is a telephoto zoom. Those are also priced comparably across brands, with some that are cheaper than Canon. The EF-M 22mm lens is only cheap when you buy it used or as a white box split from a kit. The only EF-M lens that is really cheaper than the competition is the 11-22.

For the average consumer buying new, retail, with a warranty, Canon isn't any cheaper than the competition.

Optically, the Canon lenses may be better, but that only matters to a small minority of dpreview members here in this forum.
 
The average consumer barely knows how to use their smartphone camera properly. They don't benefit from a DSLR level camera, and shouldn't be buying one in the first place.
Anyone who is serious about photography will eventually find out how important lenses are. The EF-M lenses are unparalleled in terms of price/performance ratio. End of story.
 
4everAnoob said:
The average consumer barely knows how to use their smartphone camera properly. They don't benefit from a DSLR level camera, and shouldn't be buying one in the first place.
Anyone who is serious about photography will eventually find out how important lenses are.
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Anyone who is serious about photography probably isn't basing there entire system on the EF-M mount.
4everAnoob said:
The EF-M lenses are unparalleled in terms of price/performance ratio. End of story.
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I think you are overestimating the performance of the Canon lenses and underestimating the competition. Canon may have a slight quality advantage, but the competition is more than adequate for producing very nice images. As for price, Canon only really has an advantage with the 11-22mm lens. All of these are current prices from B&H

Canon

11-22mm f4-5.6 - $399

22mm f2 - $249

55-200mm f4.5-6.3 - $349

Sony

10-18mm f4 - $848

20mm f2/8 - $348

55-210mm f4.5-6.3 - $348

Samsung

12-24mm f4-5.6 - $516

20mm f2.8 - $179

55-200mm f4-5.6 - $299
 
One can find much better prices on ebay from Asian sellers. I bought a new white box 22mm for $125 shipped. The 55-200mm can be bought new white box for $250 and the 11-22mm can be had for around $340.

The Sony 10-18mm on ebay goes for $600 and up. The 55-210mm for $170 and 20mm had one listing for $600AUD.

Overall, the Canon lenses seem to have a better IQ/price ratio. The IQ/price ratio of the 22mm is off the charts, IMO.
 
First of, B&H is only one of million places where you can buy Canon lenses.
Secondly, show me one pancake large aperture prime for mirrorless which is sharp wide open across the frame, which isn't priced over 500$. There is only one, which is the 22mm pancake.
The equivalent Sony lenses are all inferior. The 20mm F2.8 is a joke compared to the Canon. Samsung is pretty good though, but the bodies are not that great in terms of handling, and last time I checked (which is a while ago) Jpeg output of Samsung was terrible.

And no, I know there is much more out there than EF-M, but that is beyond the topic isn't it??
Last time I checked I was in the Canon EOS M talk forum...
 
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MikeJ9116 said:
One can find much better prices on ebay from Asian sellers. I bought a new white box 22mm for $125 shipped. The 55-200mm can be bought new white box for $250 and the 11-22mm can be had for around $340.
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I am comparing new, retail products with a full manufacturers warranty. Apples to apples
MikeJ9116 said:
The Sony 10-18mm on ebay goes for $600 and up. The 55-210mm for $170 and 20mm had one listing for $600AUD.
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The Sony 20mm goes for around $250 on ebay.
MikeJ9116 said:
Overall, the Canon lenses seem to have a better IQ/price ratio. The IQ/price ratio of the 22mm is off the charts, IMO.
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Comparing used prices and trying claim one manufacturer better than another is a bit pointless as prices are always in flux and frequently vary by 20%.

The main reason the EF-M 22mm lens can be purchased for so little is because the market is flooded with that lens after the fire sale of the original M. The Sony and Samsung 20mm lenses have never been bundled in a kit so there isn't a massive surplus floating around.

These price discussions are fairly irrelevant. If someone was truly price sensitive, they would not be invested in the M system and probably not invested in mirrorless in general. Go price the EF-S versions of the EF-M lenses and you will see that the EF-S versions are cheaper across the board.
 
nnowak said:
These price discussions are fairly irrelevant. If someone was truly price sensitive, they would not be invested in the M system and probably not invested in mirrorless in general. Go price the EF-S versions of the EF-M lenses and you will see that the EF-S versions are cheaper across the board.
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Almost everybody is price sensitive.

EF-S versions are cheaper, yet not better or equal. Usually just different or worse in few aspects.
 
4everAnoob said:
First of, B&H is only one of million places where you can buy Canon lenses.
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They are also one of the most common retailers and generally have fairly consistent pricing. Feel free to compile prices from another full line retailer if you think the numbers would be dramatically different.
4everAnoob said:
Secondly, show me one pancake large aperture prime for mirrorless which is sharp wide open across the frame, which isn't priced over 500$.
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I don't know. Where do you find a large aperture pancake prime that is sharp wide-open across the frame? The 22mm has soft corners wide open. The 22mm lens is very good and it is almost the only EF-M lens I use. However, it is not a perfect lens
4everAnoob said:
There is only one, which is the 22mm pancake.
The equivalent Sony lenses are all inferior. The 20mm F2.8 is a joke compared to the Canon. Samsung is pretty good though, but the bodies are not that great in terms of handling, and last time I checked (which is a while ago) Jpeg output of Samsung was terrible.
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I didn't know jpeg quality impacted the price of a lens.
4everAnoob said:
And no, I know there is much more out there than EF-M, but that is beyond the topic isn't it??
Last time I checked I was in the Canon EOS M talk forum...
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Yes, you are in an the M Talk forum, arguing in a thread about the problems with the M system compared to rivals.
 
crashpc said:
nnowak said:
These price discussions are fairly irrelevant. If someone was truly price sensitive, they would not be invested in the M system and probably not invested in mirrorless in general. Go price the EF-S versions of the EF-M lenses and you will see that the EF-S versions are cheaper across the board.
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Almost everybody is price sensitive.

EF-S versions are cheaper, yet not better or equal. Usually just different or worse in few aspects.
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The EF-S versions are bigger, though not by much. Optically, I think you would be very hard pressed to find any meaningful differences between the versions, and neither has an across the board advantage. Just look how many people in this forum are using the EF-S 55-250 STM and EF-S 10-18 STM instead of the EF-M counterparts.
 
55-250mm STM can be considered as better, because of longer reach and sharper long end, where it is about to be used. It can also be found more frequently and cheap. 10-18 is about inferior, especially for corner sharpness, compared to 11-22.
 
nnowak said:
I don't know. Where do you find a large aperture pancake prime that is sharp wide-open across the frame? The 22mm has soft corners wide open. The 22mm lens is very good and it is almost the only EF-M lens I use. However, it is not a perfect lens
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You realise that with ALL manufacturers that mass produce lenses you will always have minor differences in focus and build quality. That's why you try in store and pick the best one.

For the price it is a brilliant lens.

--


they call me Enzo.
 
Anybody see that operating profit drop of 20% in the news recently?

Now who's gonna tell me that Canon knows better?

While my armchair CEO skills may not be tip-top, it'd probably helped them more than what they did this last year.
 
The EF-S 55-250 STM and EF-S 10-18 STM are used over their EF-M counterparts in large part because they can fit crop and M cameras. It would be interesting to know how many M, M2 and M3 owners also have a Canon DSLR. I suspect quite a few. That might be a good poll question in this forum.
 
yahoo2u said:
nnowak said:
I don't know. Where do you find a large aperture pancake prime that is sharp wide-open across the frame? The 22mm has soft corners wide open. The 22mm lens is very good and it is almost the only EF-M lens I use. However, it is not a perfect lens
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You realise that with ALL manufacturers that mass produce lenses you will always have minor differences in focus and build quality. That's why you try in store and pick the best one.
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You do realize that ALL EF-M 22mm lenses have soft corners wide open.

83e8dc1cb11b44cb816d916c16cc97d8.jpg

yahoo2u said:
For the price it is a brilliant lens.
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It is not a perfect lens. At the $249 price for a new unit with a warranty, it is just a good lens.
yahoo2u said:
--

they call me Enzo.
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MikeJ9116 said:
The EF-S 55-250 STM and EF-S 10-18 STM are used over their EF-M counterparts in large part because they can fit crop and M cameras. It would be interesting to know how many M, M2 and M3 owners also have a Canon DSLR. I suspect quite a few. That might be a good poll question in this forum.
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I can think of several people in this forum who went with the EF-S versions solely based on price, especially at the initial launch price of the 55-200mm. They did not own DSLRs, but a few thought they might in the future.
 
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