Is a 5:4 Crop option Likely/possible on any X camera?

jadot · Oct 13, 2015

I've been shooting x cameras mainly for wedding photography since 2010 when the first x100 was unleashed.

However, the one thing I've always yearned after in the X-t1 is the 5:4 crop mode that I got used to on the D800 I used to shoot.

Does anyone think that we'll ever see a 5:4 crop mode in a firmware update? And what about the ability to shoot any crop mode in RAW? Currently this is limited to JPEG.

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examples of my photography at www.alexanderleaman.com

JS Burnie · Oct 13, 2015

You have some very nice work and website. I particularly like the page with links to the local wedding venues. Great idea.

Why do you want an in-camera crop? Just to preview the framing? Just curious why you wouldn't just shoot a little wide and crop in processing. Would adjustable framing lines in the viewfinder for different aspect ratios suit you? I would think that this might be easier to implement. Perhaps raise this with your local Fujui rep. They might listen to a pro. Cheers.

jadot · Oct 13, 2015

Thanks for your compliments!

The problem with cropping in processing is that it never marries up with your intended crop when you were shooting. I agree, at least having some frame lines in the finder would help this, especially if the RAW converter could 'talk to' and know where those frame lines would fall - i.e in the same place!

But if Frame lines could be added to the EVF, let's say, then it's not too much of a jump to add a final crop blackout too.

5:4 is much better (to my eye, at least) for portrait work especially, but when you get used to it it also works well in landscape mode too. As a bonus, and if the crop is taken from the centre of the sensor then there is a chance that any edge softness is limited, as well as losing a small amount of MB from the file size. That's a win for me.

Thanks again for your kind words.

Vic Chapman · Oct 13, 2015

Very nice work Alexander.

I'm another lover of 5x4/6x7 and I even buy screens that are nearest to this ratio. However, and although I've taught myself to visualise the crop in the viewfinder it can be useful to have the extra to allow whatever crop is necessary and to get rid of unwanted drainpipes at the edge sort of thing. Back in the day, most wedding albums were books of same size pictures but as you know, modern wedding couples seem to appreciate a more coffee table style wedding album with differing crops spread through the album and similarly with video slide shows of same - so maybe the 5x4 ratio is less important.

Excellent website BTW.

57even · Oct 13, 2015

jadot said:
Thanks for your compliments!

The problem with cropping in processing is that it never marries up with your intended crop when you were shooting. I agree, at least having some frame lines in the finder would help this, especially if the RAW converter could 'talk to' and know where those frame lines would fall - i.e in the same place!

But if Frame lines could be added to the EVF, let's say, then it's not too much of a jump to add a final crop blackout too.

5:4 is much better (to my eye, at least) for portrait work especially, but when you get used to it it also works well in landscape mode too. As a bonus, and if the crop is taken from the centre of the sensor then there is a chance that any edge softness is limited, as well as losing a small amount of MB from the file size. That's a win for me.

Thanks again for your kind words.

jadot · Oct 13, 2015

Is 4:3 an option? I can't see Fuji saying "We'll add 4:3, but not 5:4!" I'm sorry - I'm not sure of the point of doing that, or at least the point of asking for 5:4 and getting something different.

win39 · Oct 14, 2015

5:4 was a surprise to me when it appeared. It makes sense for pros who just use standard paper sizes for prints. I was a bit disappointed that such a crass commercial tool was put in my camera which I think of as being a more creative tool than that.

It would be easy for Fuji to add it, I think, but really, how do they see their cameras? In the meantime while they are thinking about it you could probably tape the LCD which would give you a composition confirmation or a 4x5 medium format viewfinder that you could match with effective focal length.

bowportes · Oct 14, 2015

win39 said:
5:4 was a surprise to me when it appeared. It makes sense for pros who just use standard paper sizes for prints. I was a bit disappointed that such a crass commercial tool was put in my camera which I think of as being a more creative tool than that.

It would be easy for Fuji to add it, I think, but really, how do they see their cameras? In the meantime while they are thinking about it you could probably tape the LCD which would give you a composition confirmation or a 4x5 medium format viewfinder that you could match with effective focal length.

A couple of interesting ideas have been posted in this thread:

1. Expanding the number of available cropping ratios in camera (to perhaps include 3:4 and 4:5

2. Adding metadata to the raw files that software could use to duplicate the crops in post.

3. I'll add another: giving users the option of retaining a crop when re-processing the raw file in-camera. Currently, even if you use a 16:9 crop for the initial JPEG, it is lost when the file is reprocessed in camera. Putting the crop info in the raw file as metadata should enable this.

jadot · Oct 15, 2015

bowportes said:
win39 said:

5:4 was a surprise to me when it appeared. It makes sense for pros who just use standard paper sizes for prints. I was a bit disappointed that such a crass commercial tool was put in my camera which I think of as being a more creative tool than that.

It would be easy for Fuji to add it, I think, but really, how do they see their cameras? In the meantime while they are thinking about it you could probably tape the LCD which would give you a composition confirmation or a 4x5 medium format viewfinder that you could match with effective focal length.

Click to expand...

A couple of interesting ideas have been posted in this thread:

1. Expanding the number of available cropping ratios in camera (to perhaps include 3:4 and 4:5

2. Adding metadata to the raw files that software could use to duplicate the crops in post.

3. I'll add another: giving users the option of retaining a crop when re-processing the raw file in-camera. Currently, even if you use a 16:9 crop for the initial JPEG, it is lost when the file is reprocessed in camera. Putting the crop info in the raw file as metadata should enable this.

So perhaps if this were to pass Fuji by, there still might be a chance for someone to come up with a firmware hack, at least at a RAW metadata level. (Obviously this is a hypothetical Guess - I really don't know how this stuff works or if it's even possible for someone to hack their way in. Any coders/hackers out there will know if there's a way in - I'd love to see it, and would pay to implement a crop mode baked in to the RAF files)

Better still, Fuji could take a stab at it?

As far as I know (99/99% sure) Nikon's crop modes are baked in to the NEF. Does panasonic do the same thing with their LX cameras? In any case it should be possible... Fuji?

bowportes · Oct 15, 2015

jadot said:
bowportes said:

win39 said:

5:4 was a surprise to me when it appeared. It makes sense for pros who just use standard paper sizes for prints. I was a bit disappointed that such a crass commercial tool was put in my camera which I think of as being a more creative tool than that.

It would be easy for Fuji to add it, I think, but really, how do they see their cameras? In the meantime while they are thinking about it you could probably tape the LCD which would give you a composition confirmation or a 4x5 medium format viewfinder that you could match with effective focal length.

Click to expand...

A couple of interesting ideas have been posted in this thread:

1. Expanding the number of available cropping ratios in camera (to perhaps include 3:4 and 4:5

2. Adding metadata to the raw files that software could use to duplicate the crops in post.

3. I'll add another: giving users the option of retaining a crop when re-processing the raw file in-camera. Currently, even if you use a 16:9 crop for the initial JPEG, it is lost when the file is reprocessed in camera. Putting the crop info in the raw file as metadata should enable this.

Click to expand...

So perhaps if this were to pass Fuji by, there still might be a chance for someone to come up with a firmware hack, at least at a RAW metadata level. (Obviously this is a hypothetical Guess - I really don't know how this stuff works or if it's even possible for someone to hack their way in. Any coders/hackers out there will know if there's a way in - I'd love to see it, and would pay to implement a crop mode baked in to the RAF files)

Better still, Fuji could take a stab at it?

As far as I know (99/99% sure) Nikon's crop modes are baked in to the NEF. Does panasonic do the same thing with their LX cameras? In any case it should be possible... Fuji?

jadot · Oct 15, 2015

bowportes said:
jadot said:

bowportes said:

win39 said:

5:4 was a surprise to me when it appeared. It makes sense for pros who just use standard paper sizes for prints. I was a bit disappointed that such a crass commercial tool was put in my camera which I think of as being a more creative tool than that.

It would be easy for Fuji to add it, I think, but really, how do they see their cameras? In the meantime while they are thinking about it you could probably tape the LCD which would give you a composition confirmation or a 4x5 medium format viewfinder that you could match with effective focal length.

Click to expand...

A couple of interesting ideas have been posted in this thread:

1. Expanding the number of available cropping ratios in camera (to perhaps include 3:4 and 4:5

2. Adding metadata to the raw files that software could use to duplicate the crops in post.

3. I'll add another: giving users the option of retaining a crop when re-processing the raw file in-camera. Currently, even if you use a 16:9 crop for the initial JPEG, it is lost when the file is reprocessed in camera. Putting the crop info in the raw file as metadata should enable this.

Click to expand...

So perhaps if this were to pass Fuji by, there still might be a chance for someone to come up with a firmware hack, at least at a RAW metadata level. (Obviously this is a hypothetical Guess - I really don't know how this stuff works or if it's even possible for someone to hack their way in. Any coders/hackers out there will know if there's a way in - I'd love to see it, and would pay to implement a crop mode baked in to the RAF files)

Better still, Fuji could take a stab at it?

As far as I know (99/99% sure) Nikon's crop modes are baked in to the NEF. Does panasonic do the same thing with their LX cameras? In any case it should be possible... Fuji?

Click to expand...

bowportes · Oct 15, 2015

jadot said:
bowportes said:

jadot said:

bowportes said:

win39 said:

5:4 was a surprise to me when it appeared. It makes sense for pros who just use standard paper sizes for prints. I was a bit disappointed that such a crass commercial tool was put in my camera which I think of as being a more creative tool than that.

It would be easy for Fuji to add it, I think, but really, how do they see their cameras? In the meantime while they are thinking about it you could probably tape the LCD which would give you a composition confirmation or a 4x5 medium format viewfinder that you could match with effective focal length.

Click to expand...

A couple of interesting ideas have been posted in this thread:

1. Expanding the number of available cropping ratios in camera (to perhaps include 3:4 and 4:5

2. Adding metadata to the raw files that software could use to duplicate the crops in post.

3. I'll add another: giving users the option of retaining a crop when re-processing the raw file in-camera. Currently, even if you use a 16:9 crop for the initial JPEG, it is lost when the file is reprocessed in camera. Putting the crop info in the raw file as metadata should enable this.

Click to expand...

So perhaps if this were to pass Fuji by, there still might be a chance for someone to come up with a firmware hack, at least at a RAW metadata level. (Obviously this is a hypothetical Guess - I really don't know how this stuff works or if it's even possible for someone to hack their way in. Any coders/hackers out there will know if there's a way in - I'd love to see it, and would pay to implement a crop mode baked in to the RAF files)

Better still, Fuji could take a stab at it?

As far as I know (99/99% sure) Nikon's crop modes are baked in to the NEF. Does panasonic do the same thing with their LX cameras? In any case it should be possible... Fuji?

--
examples of my photography at www.alexanderleaman.com

Click to expand...

I wouldn't be at all interested in someone's hack, especially one that messed with the RAW files.

The coolest thing I've seen in aspect ratios was Panasonic's Multi Aspect Ratio (MAR) sensor that gave full resolution (i.e. not a crop) for a variety of aspect ratios by carving out different portions of the circular image space. In that case, a 16:9 or 1:1 ratio wasn't simply crop of their standard 4:3 image, but instead used a wider or taller area of the image circle than did the standard 4:3 image. Too bad they abandoned it... it was an idea that others should have picked up on.

Once an alternate aspect ratio is simply a crop of the total image, as with Fuji, there's not much point in using it (except for visualization purposes). I typically crop in post-processing these days; I don't need the camera to do it for me.

Click to expand...

That's great for you! But Personally I like shooting the crop I'm wanting to end up with, resolution or not.

I don't mean to sound blunt, but did you just come on here and say "I can't see the point in something that isn't for me?!"

Not having to crop in post and check every image that I'm cropping would save me a massive amount of time. There is, in my case "much [of a] Point" in having such a feature. If there was an option to enable that then I'm guessing that I'd use it, and you probably wouldn't. And that's the deal - if you thought it was a crappy and unnecessary feature then you could just not toggle it to the 'on' position. Carry on regardless.

--
examples of my photography at www.alexanderleaman.com

Yes, I said I can't see the point, but I was thinking of the JPEG cropping as currently implemented. Since there's no cropping info in the RAW files, and we have to re-crop anyway in post, why do it in camera in the first place (other than as a visualization aid)? Even if they gave me 4:3 and 5:4 crops of in-camera JPEGs, I'd still have to re-crop in post. Without number 2 in my above list, they've given raw shooters nothing.

My sentence should have read, "Once an alternate aspect ration is simply an in-camera JPEG crop of the total image, as with Fuji, there's not much point..."

I had already listed three cropping features that together would be useful. Perhaps you missed that.

robert1955 · Oct 15, 2015

bowportes said:
Yes, I said I can't see the point, but I was thinking of the JPEG cropping as currently implemented. Since there's no cropping info in the RAW files, and we have to re-crop anyway in post, why do it in camera in the first place (other than as a visualization aid)?

If you shoot jpg + raw you can select a crop ratio, e.g. square. The viewfinder will show a sqaure image and the jpg will only record the square. The raw is more interesting. Lightroom will generate a square preview, but all the pixesl are there. If you select the cropping tool, you'll see the square as an overlay, but you can go to the 2:3 data as recorded by selecting 'original' as the aspect ratio.

Not completely as I'd want it, as you cannot do this if you are shooting raw only.

BTW: Lr could also do this with Sony Nex files. Maybe it is a standardized tag in metadata, and maybe other raw converters can recognize this as well.

jadot · Oct 15, 2015

So basically you can copy the crop and only the crop, If that's what you need, from your Jpeg and apply to all of your counterpart RAW files that you have been framing with the mask of your choice!

Now all we need is a 5:4 aspect crop and we're away, kind of. I like the potential.

jadot · Oct 16, 2015

robert1955 said:
bowportes said:

Yes, I said I can't see the point, but I was thinking of the JPEG cropping as currently implemented. Since there's no cropping info in the RAW files, and we have to re-crop anyway in post, why do it in camera in the first place (other than as a visualization aid)?

Click to expand...

If you shoot jpg + raw you can select a crop ratio, e.g. square. The viewfinder will show a sqaure image and the jpg will only record the square. The raw is more interesting. Lightroom will generate a square preview, but all the pixesl are there. If you select the cropping tool, you'll see the square as an overlay, but you can go to the 2:3 data as recorded by selecting 'original' as the aspect ratio.

Not completely as I'd want it, as you cannot do this if you are shooting raw only.

BTW: Lr could also do this with Sony Nex files. Maybe it is a standardized tag in metadata, and maybe other raw converters can recognize this as well.

Just as an FYI - This doesn't work in C1 Pro - at least I can't import the preview to keep the crop intact. Lightroom is a doozy though.

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Is a 5:4 Crop option Likely/possible on any X camera?

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