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Paul, in the original post he mentions the words "model" and "portfolio". If one is shooting images for a model who is trying to put together a book (or comp card), then one must know what type of images to shoot. By this I mean, the type of images an agency is interested in seeing. And Paul, if I showed you the beef, how would you be able to recognize it?

Regards,
J. Roberts
 
As a devout Christian I'm not sure why you or your daughter would want her presenting herself in a way that would/could cause men to "stumble". As a Christian your daughter might want to consider whether she's helping her brothers in Christ to be pure or whether her dress/behavior is a temptation towards lust.
John Watts said:
Guess what? Im going to let you into a little secret here. I'm a
devout Christian, So is my doughter, and my wife is a priest. (just
let that sink in for a min) I know this world is evil but how do
you do anything about it?. You get down there with where it's
happening and try to sort the problem. Not sit there and criticise.
My daughter also helps to run three church youth groups.She can
take care of herself in this big bad world,but ask yourself one
question? what do I do to make it a better place.
Think about it
reguards john.
Click to expand...
 
Listen. All photography is about morality. All life is about morality. Our decision to photograph ANYTHING is dictated by esthetic, moral and a myriad of other considerations. Photography is frequently used to make moral statements - some subtle and some not so subtle. Photography or any art for that matter divorced from morality is bereft of that which makes us human.

To restrict comments on the moral implications or content of a photograph from one who has ASKED for comments is artificial and dishonest. The moral implications of a photograph cannot be divorced from its esthetics.

What if I were to beautifully photograph a pedophile in action? Would everyone then be so scrupulous about their moral qualms? I think not.

Would you all be so sanguine about Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of Will" - a photographic extravaganza? I don't think so?

If you disagree with my comments - fine. But they were entirely appropriate and germane to the discussion begun by Mr. Watts.
John Watts said:
Could you take some photo's of me for a bit of a portfolio?.
My doughter is doing her third year as a Phsycology student, but to
pay her way ( i'm skint ) she dances on stage in a Manchester
nightclub. She has never modeled before and I have never
Photographed a model before.
So, armed with a eos10d, Sigma 28 - 105 lens, 550 ex and 420ex, 12
ft + 16ft living room,false tan, makeup that only lasts 10 mins,
and a bookcase with some black material pinned to it, off we went.
I never imagined it would be so hard. We were like two ducks out of
water, 3 hours later we decided enough was enough, You
professionals out there have my upmost admiration for the skill and
artistic flair that you must have to do this for a living.
anyway, this is the result and we were both pleased that we got
something out of the hard work we put in. These are just a few of
the 35 that we ended up with.
http://www.pbase.com/johnaline/maxine
Click to expand...
 
1wingman said:
1wingman said:
Guess what? Im going to let you into a little secret here. I'm a
devout Christian, So is my doughter, and my wife is a priest. (just
let that sink in for a min) I know this world is evil but how do
you do anything about it?. You get down there with where it's
happening and try to sort the problem. Not sit there and criticise.
My daughter also helps to run three church youth groups.She can
take care of herself in this big bad world,but ask yourself one
question? what do I do to make it a better place.
Think about it
reguards john.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Jason
 
your comparison to an artistic photo of a paedophile in action is an entirely inappropriate comparision, considering that involves exploitation/violation of an innocent, vulnerable child and it is ILLEGAL whereas these photos are of an adult who has CHOSEN to participate and are legal- it's all about choice.

pretty much anything between 2 consenting adults which doesn't hurt anyone is OK, and why not? whatever makes you happy, and doesn't hurt other people. that's how i try to live my life. some people go to church (i dont), but each to their own, as long as we dont try to repeatedly coerce others into our way of thinking.

web design ~ interactive media ~ photography
http://www.wprasek.com
 
OMG!! loosen up?! it seems you do not know the meaning of loose! jeez please crawl back into that hole you came from and hibernate for eternity!
Bob Haverford said:
John Watts brought up religion, not me. I was merely responding to
his comments on religion, some of my comments CLEARLY tongue in
cheek. Loosten up everybody!
Spencer said:
Re: Bob and his thread about his views about Christianity and how
he inteprets his religion. This forum is about photography. Please
go to some other place to discuss your religion. Your moralistic
and righteous attitude offends me and does belong in this forum.
John Watts said:
Could you take some photo's of me for a bit of a portfolio?.
My doughter is doing her third year as a Phsycology student, but to
pay her way ( i'm skint ) she dances on stage in a Manchester
nightclub. She has never modeled before and I have never
Photographed a model before.
So, armed with a eos10d, Sigma 28 - 105 lens, 550 ex and 420ex, 12
ft + 16ft living room,false tan, makeup that only lasts 10 mins,
and a bookcase with some black material pinned to it, off we went.
I never imagined it would be so hard. We were like two ducks out of
water, 3 hours later we decided enough was enough, You
professionals out there have my upmost admiration for the skill and
artistic flair that you must have to do this for a living.
anyway, this is the result and we were both pleased that we got
something out of the hard work we put in. These are just a few of
the 35 that we ended up with.
http://www.pbase.com/johnaline/maxine
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
J. Roberts said:
She is modeling for redbull the beer company I believe and she is a go go dancer in a dance club so therefore she is in perfect attire. What about cheerleaders are they strippers too? Come on its not the clothes people wear it's the people looking at the clothes that tend to be the problem! Maybe we should ban bathing suits, make up and tight jeans. Hey lets all run around in snow suits that might work?J. Roberts
wrote:

Paul, in the original post he mentions the words "model" and
"portfolio". If one is shooting images for a model who is trying to
put together a book (or comp card), then one must know what type of
images to shoot. By this I mean, the type of images an agency is
interested in seeing. And Paul, if I showed you the beef, how would
you be able to recognize it?

Regards,
J. Roberts
Click to expand...
 
I like your pictures, and there is nothng wrong about them - Good work and even morality is very ok.
John Watts said:
Could you take some photo's of me for a bit of a portfolio?.
My doughter is doing her third year as a Phsycology student, but to
pay her way ( i'm skint ) she dances on stage in a Manchester
nightclub. She has never modeled before and I have never
Photographed a model before.
So, armed with a eos10d, Sigma 28 - 105 lens, 550 ex and 420ex, 12
ft + 16ft living room,false tan, makeup that only lasts 10 mins,
and a bookcase with some black material pinned to it, off we went.
I never imagined it would be so hard. We were like two ducks out of
water, 3 hours later we decided enough was enough, You
professionals out there have my upmost admiration for the skill and
artistic flair that you must have to do this for a living.
anyway, this is the result and we were both pleased that we got
something out of the hard work we put in. These are just a few of
the 35 that we ended up with.
http://www.pbase.com/johnaline/maxine
Click to expand...
 
Nice work John! I like the 2nd pic.
John Watts said:
Could you take some photo's of me for a bit of a portfolio?.
My doughter is doing her third year as a Phsycology student, but to
pay her way ( i'm skint ) she dances on stage in a Manchester
nightclub. She has never modeled before and I have never
Photographed a model before.
So, armed with a eos10d, Sigma 28 - 105 lens, 550 ex and 420ex, 12
ft + 16ft living room,false tan, makeup that only lasts 10 mins,
and a bookcase with some black material pinned to it, off we went.
I never imagined it would be so hard. We were like two ducks out of
water, 3 hours later we decided enough was enough, You
professionals out there have my upmost admiration for the skill and
artistic flair that you must have to do this for a living.
anyway, this is the result and we were both pleased that we got
something out of the hard work we put in. These are just a few of
the 35 that we ended up with.
http://www.pbase.com/johnaline/maxine
Click to expand...
 
First I must apologise to phil for posting this thread,This is not a religeous site or a photo album. I was just a bit to keen to show what I thought were some totally innocent photoes of Maxine. I wanted to share the experiance with others out there who have never done this type of shoot before. I must admit though I did not expect a response like this.

May I convey my utmost thanks to those of you who have given me so much support over the last couple of days, also for the personal emails that I have recieved. It did get me down when I saw the negative comments and started to judge myself as a father. Now I have put it into perspective and realise that as over 3700 people have viewed these photos only a very small number think I was wrong to take them. It's time to get on with my PHOTOGRAPHY and put this down to one of lifes experiances.

Lets put this thread to sleep now and next time you hear from me it will be with a photographic question or an answer to someone elses.
for those with me --Thanks
For those I'v offended-- Sorry
John.
John Watts said:
Could you take some photo's of me for a bit of a portfolio?.
My doughter is doing her third year as a Phsycology student, but to
pay her way ( i'm skint ) she dances on stage in a Manchester
nightclub. She has never modeled before and I have never
Photographed a model before.
So, armed with a eos10d, Sigma 28 - 105 lens, 550 ex and 420ex, 12
ft + 16ft living room,false tan, makeup that only lasts 10 mins,
and a bookcase with some black material pinned to it, off we went.
I never imagined it would be so hard. We were like two ducks out of
water, 3 hours later we decided enough was enough, You
professionals out there have my upmost admiration for the skill and
artistic flair that you must have to do this for a living.
anyway, this is the result and we were both pleased that we got
something out of the hard work we put in. These are just a few of
the 35 that we ended up with.
http://www.pbase.com/johnaline/maxine
Click to expand...
 
You're WELL within Phil's guidelines. You didn't even embed any of the images. Reading the post, it should've been clear that there was a relatively good chance of "glamour shots".

What I will say is "get used to being judged". Any time you post information / photos that CAN be taken the wrong way, it WILL be taken the wrong way by some.

I've put up with a lot of that myself. Many of the fans of The Wilkinsons happen to be teenage girls. Because of that, I happen to have a lot of friends now who are teenage girls. Many of which I chat with on a semi-regular basis on the internet, and quite a few I've actually met in person.

You wouldn't believe (but I guess you SHOULD believe, and expect it) the number of accusations I get because of this. Almost exclusively from people to whom it should be of no concern.

Don't let people run you off from here. Stick around.
John Watts said:
First I must apologise to phil for posting this thread,This is not
a religeous site or a photo album. I was just a bit to keen to show
what I thought were some totally innocent photoes of Maxine. I
wanted to share the experiance with others out there who have never
done this type of shoot before. I must admit though I did not
expect a response like this.
May I convey my utmost thanks to those of you who have given me so
much support over the last couple of days, also for the personal
emails that I have recieved. It did get me down when I saw the
negative comments and started to judge myself as a father. Now I
have put it into perspective and realise that as over 3700 people
have viewed these photos only a very small number think I was wrong
to take them. It's time to get on with my PHOTOGRAPHY and put this
down to one of lifes experiances.
Lets put this thread to sleep now and next time you hear from me it
will be with a photographic question or an answer to someone elses.
for those with me --Thanks
For those I'v offended-- Sorry
John.
Click to expand...
--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers
 
John, you sound like a really nice guy and it is admirable that you have apologized (it shows your true character, that of a kind person), but really you shouldn't. Those who questioned your morality are out of line. They certainly are entitled to their opinion, but they are not entitled to express it as it was done. You owe them no apology; in fact, they owe you one.
John Watts said:
John Watts said:
Could you take some photo's of me for a bit of a portfolio?.
My doughter is doing her third year as a Phsycology student, but to
pay her way ( i'm skint ) she dances on stage in a Manchester
nightclub. She has never modeled before and I have never
Photographed a model before.
So, armed with a eos10d, Sigma 28 - 105 lens, 550 ex and 420ex, 12
ft + 16ft living room,false tan, makeup that only lasts 10 mins,
and a bookcase with some black material pinned to it, off we went.
I never imagined it would be so hard. We were like two ducks out of
water, 3 hours later we decided enough was enough, You
professionals out there have my upmost admiration for the skill and
artistic flair that you must have to do this for a living.
anyway, this is the result and we were both pleased that we got
something out of the hard work we put in. These are just a few of
the 35 that we ended up with.
http://www.pbase.com/johnaline/maxine
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
How cool would this site be if we all agreed in every way and only posted pictures of rulers?

John you'll would get equally flamed for posting pictures of a schoolcraft ruler. Don't try this.

Life is to short ... in a billion years ... when we are all the hereafter ... who's gonna care that mozonuti541 didn't like your post on DPReview?

Post on!

--
Jason
 
Dear John,

You should NOT apologise, at least, that is what I think. You've made a good and clear point about what to expect when clicking on the link you gave. I personally think you have done a great job with these pictures, but also in teaching your kids some valuable lessons.

BUT! I think nobody should interfere in how you raise your children, how you do the things you do. It is of nobodies interest how you do those things and therefore I think nobody should comment on that.

I am not religious, and I don't go around telling religious people they're idiots right? No that's not for me to decide, that's everybodies own business and please let it be their thing.
John Watts said:
First I must apologise to phil for posting this thread,This is not
a religeous site or a photo album. I was just a bit to keen to show
what I thought were some totally innocent photoes of Maxine. I
wanted to share the experiance with others out there who have never
done this type of shoot before. I must admit though I did not
expect a response like this.
Click to expand...
Well I was somewhat positive, maybe you didn't expect that? ;)
John Watts said:
May I convey my utmost thanks to those of you who have given me so
much support over the last couple of days, also for the personal
emails that I have recieved. It did get me down when I saw the
negative comments and started to judge myself as a father. Now I
have put it into perspective and realise that as over 3700 people
have viewed these photos only a very small number think I was wrong
to take them. It's time to get on with my PHOTOGRAPHY and put this
down to one of lifes experiances.
Click to expand...
Your photo's is what counts, it's not about what people think about hwo you raise your kids, that's your business.
John Watts said:
Lets put this thread to sleep now and next time you hear from me it
will be with a photographic question or an answer to someone elses.
for those with me --Thanks
For those I'v offended-- Sorry
John.
Click to expand...
Oh I'm so, very, really very, inmensly mad! Why for f*cks sake should you apologise for helping your children, for making photo's to make your kids look good? Why should you, just please tell me why, so I might be abled to understand what goes on inside peoples minds that makes this thread so very unpleasant.

--
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.
 
Bob, determining morality in photography or anything else is always subjective from the moralist. In other words, what you consider moral and someone else would consider moral are two distinct conclusions.

I respect your willingness to believe and practice your religion. In turn please respect others who share different beliefs. Whether you are an Atheist, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Jew, a Christian etc you should live your life as best as you can without harm to others and accept other peoples beliefs as legitimate and without judgment.

Sorry for the off-topic retort..
Bob Haverford said:
To restrict comments on the moral implications or content of a
photograph from one who has ASKED for comments is artificial and
dishonest. The moral implications of a photograph cannot be
divorced from its esthetics.

What if I were to beautifully photograph a pedophile in action?
Would everyone then be so scrupulous about their moral qualms? I
think not.

Would you all be so sanguine about Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of
Will" - a photographic extravaganza? I don't think so?

If you disagree with my comments - fine. But they were entirely
appropriate and germane to the discussion begun by Mr. Watts.
John Watts said:
Could you take some photo's of me for a bit of a portfolio?.
My doughter is doing her third year as a Phsycology student, but to
pay her way ( i'm skint ) she dances on stage in a Manchester
nightclub. She has never modeled before and I have never
Photographed a model before.
So, armed with a eos10d, Sigma 28 - 105 lens, 550 ex and 420ex, 12
ft + 16ft living room,false tan, makeup that only lasts 10 mins,
and a bookcase with some black material pinned to it, off we went.
I never imagined it would be so hard. We were like two ducks out of
water, 3 hours later we decided enough was enough, You
professionals out there have my upmost admiration for the skill and
artistic flair that you must have to do this for a living.
anyway, this is the result and we were both pleased that we got
something out of the hard work we put in. These are just a few of
the 35 that we ended up with.
http://www.pbase.com/johnaline/maxine
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Did I miss something? Is this "Digital Morality Review"?

Someone submitting a photo for a technical critique should expect a small amount of flak for their content, but not the Spanish Inquisition that has occured here (I certainly didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!).

I think Mr. Watts' own daughter has stuck closest to the spirit of this forum in her critique of these shots (there were some harsh shadows on otherwise excellent photos). And while these shots may not be cricket for French Haute Coture modeling, there are certainly respectible venues where this kind of modeling is both welcomed and lucrative (I work in the Beverage Industry... this stuff is perfect for regional promotions).

Outside of a few stiff-lipped shots, I think these are fine photographs, and I know many models who would rather their pop take them than the local sweaty-palmed shutterbug.

Judge the photographs... not the photographer, eh?

Cheers.
JER
 
John Watts said:
I must admit though I did not expect a response like this.
Click to expand...
...interesting, isn't it? Welcome to the world of photography, especially to the world of publishing photgoraphy! You just discovered that how the picture is perceived by the "public" can differ a lot from the intentsions of the photographer or the context the picture was taken in. I think this is a very nice illustration of the the "power of pictures" and that being a "photographer" implies much more than just being able to handle the camera - photography is about toying with the perception of the viewer of the end result.

Happy and successful picture taking!
 
John,

There is no need for you to apologize here. The very few that squealed are thought police , self appointed forum cops, zealots, ****'s etc.

It would not matter what you shot, they would still attempt to find something to gripe about.

In essence that are very repressed little people - they need to go look into the mirror and see what the rest of the world is laughing about.

Unfortunately they seem to have more than a little influence with Phil - what a shame and cop-out.

-
Your eyes can capture the soul, the camera just a image.
 
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