Zeiss's new Milvus 50/1.4 better than Sigma 50 Art?

From MTF charts,
Which MTF charts have you compared?
the Milvus 50/1.4 will not be better than Sigma 50 Art in terms of resolution. The Milvus 50/1.4 is just a refined traditional double gauss design.
Double Gauss design:

Gauss_verschArten.jpg


slider_img2.jpg


It is a bit too... contrived to still call that just a refined traditional double Gauss design.

That way we can also call the Sigma 50mm f1.4 Art just a refined traditional double Gauss design:

311-lens-construction.jpg
The Leica APO Summicron 50mm F2 is a refined double gauss design and outperforms the Otus 55mm in terms of resolution...
Leica-50mm-f2-APO-Summicron-M-Aspherical-lens-design-2.jpg


So heavily modified, it lost the double Gauss along the way...
It's the result that's important, not the particular design or label.

--
http://sgoldswoblog.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sgoldswo/
Sigh. Do you find you have disagreements often?

They started with the original mandler design for the latest non APO summicron and focused on improving it. My point was that it's irrelevant throwing labels at a lens if you don't consider its performance.

--
 
I'd love to own a few Zeiss and these new models prices are reasonable while I can probably live with the bulkiness. But the MF really kills the deal...
 
Last edited:
I'd love to own a few Zeiss and these new models prices are reasonable while I can probably live with the bulkiness. But the MF really kills the deal...
Unless of course you shoot fast action. Otherwise, you do not know what you are loosing.
 
I'd love to own a few Zeiss and these new models prices are reasonable while I can probably live with the bulkiness. But the MF really kills the deal...
Unless of course you shoot fast action. Otherwise, you do not know what you are loosing.
Only wish Nikon implemented things like focus peaking to help with MF.
 
I'd love to own a few Zeiss and these new models prices are reasonable while I can probably live with the bulkiness. But the MF really kills the deal...
Unless of course you shoot fast action. Otherwise, you do not know what you are loosing.
Only wish Nikon implemented things like focus peaking to help with MF.
While focus peaking is nice, it's not precisely accurate - a FF viewfinder is better for quicker manual focusing. However, if you have all the time in the world you cannot beat a live view 100% for accuracy.
 
I'd love to own a few Zeiss and these new models prices are reasonable while I can probably live with the bulkiness. But the MF really kills the deal...
Unless of course you shoot fast action. Otherwise, you do not know what you are loosing.
Only wish Nikon implemented things like focus peaking to help with MF.
Personally I don't like peaking for manual focus of stills. I own a A7RII too, and I tend to use magnification for manual focus on that body. I actually prefer the Nikon white dot system for manual focus, at least down to F2. Nothing beats a well adjusted rangefinder for manual focus though
 
I've used my Sigma Art, Zeiss 135mm APO and various other glass. The Milvus 85mm is the one to get if you want good bokeh and superb performance wide open. I think they even beat the Otus's. Sigma Art is amazing for the money but sold mine. I'd prefer the MF on the Milvus or APO when I'm doing critical focus on a portrait lens.

The only thing that really nears the Milvus 85mm is the APO and Otus 55.

The Milvus 55m isn't exactly designed to be compared to the Otus IMO. I think it has other values artistically than just perfect corners wide open and high contrast. The Milvus achieving superb performance with no aspherical elements is quite amazing.

You can see some examples here.


The Milvus 85mm is pretty hard to beat.
 
I assume you meant the 85 milvus has no ashperes; the 50 Milvus certainly has quite a few...

What I like about the 85 milvus is the edge to edge performance; for what I use an 85mm landscape lens for, it's about a perfect match.

All pretty fine lenses overall..... not much to argue about here :)

-m
 
The KEY diff with Otus VS Milvus is the Otus go through the same QC, and "hand" build process like their ZEISS Cine-primes / Master Primes do (Pro Video Production Lenses ) i.e. those 15,000 - $30,000+ Cine Lenses. (Otus also have ball bearings as do the Cine-Lenses and more exotic lens coatings plus 1-2 glass elements that take more time to produce.)

Milvus 50 and 85 1.4 are amazing lenses! other milvus are OK.

Next milvus to be "re-worked" optically.... hint is on a 35 f1.4 ;) ;)

--

D800 / RX-1 / TG-3
Nikon FX -- 16 f2.8, 24 f1.4 , 50 1.2, 85 f1.4, 24-70VR f2.8, 70-200 VR2 f2.8 /
Zeiss ZF.2 -- 21 f2.8, 35 f2, 100 f2, 135 f2 / Milvus -- 50 f1.4
Sigma ART -- 50 f1.4 .
 
Actually, Otus lenses are made on the same line as the Milvus and ZF lenses, by Cosina, and don't use any special coatings not available to the other lines. The high end cine lenses are made in Germany to the best of my knowledge.

By nature of their design objective, they (the Otus lens designers) obviously are using whatever glass types and designs that enable them to meet their design goals, but they don't have any secret sauce that the other lenses don't have either. I've shot the Otus 55 and 85 (and the 85 in particular is amazing), and I also own the Milvus 85, and I can tell you that once you stop down a bit, the Milvus 85 is a long, long, long way from an ordinary, average lens. The Milvus 85 in particular is interesting, because for bokeh and rendering reasons they kept most of the Otus design but used no aspheres; it gives the Milvus a different look at the wider apertures (and in the usual tradeoff, it's not as sharp wide open at the Otus, but the bokeh is better). Both use a bloody ton of exotic glass in the design, and for landscape tasks, the Milvus 85 is every bit as outstanding as the Otus. I also own the Zeiss 135/2 Apo Sonnar (another brilliant lens) and honestly, after shooting both for a while now, I think the Milvus 85 is actually slightly better, and THAT is saying something.

-m
 
Last edited:
Actually, Otus lenses are made on the same line as the Milvus and ZF lenses, by Cosina, and don't use any special coatings not available to the other lines. The high end cine lenses are made in Germany to the best of my knowledge.

By nature of their design objective, they (the Otus lens designers) obviously are using whatever glass types and designs that enable them to meet their design goals, but they don't have any secret sauce that the other lenses don't have either. I've shot the Otus 55 and 85 (and the 85 in particular is amazing), and I also own the Milvus 85, and I can tell you that once you stop down a bit, the Milvus 85 is a long, long, long way from an ordinary, average lens. The Milvus 85 in particular is interesting, because for bokeh and rendering reasons they kept most of the Otus design but used no aspheres; it gives the Milvus a different look at the wider apertures (and in the usual tradeoff, it's not as sharp wide open at the Otus, but the bokeh is better). Both use a bloody ton of exotic glass in the design, and for landscape tasks, the Milvus 85 is every bit as outstanding as the Otus. I also own the Zeiss 135/2 Apo Sonnar (another brilliant lens) and honestly, after shooting both for a while now, I think the Milvus 85 is actually slightly better, and THAT is saying something.

-m
Miles 85 is on my list very shortly also. ;) Cheers.
 
"...I also own the Zeiss 135/2 Apo Sonnar (another brilliant lens) and honestly, after shooting both for a while now, I think the Milvus 85 is actually slightly better, and THAT is saying something."

-m
Hi Mike,

I also own the 135/2 APO Sonnar and absolutely love this lens. As for 85's I've been simply using my 1.4 AIS as I've been patiently waiting for a Sigma Art 85 to compliment my Art 50. When you say that you feel the Milvus 85 is slightly better than the 135 APO, could you explain in what manners? I may consider getting the Milvus instead of waiting for the "future" Art 85.

Many thanks,

No Regrets
 
I will try my best to not make this too long, but given I'm longwinded, I will likely fail!

What I love about the 135/2 Apo Sonnar is that at it's best, it gets out of the way - it has a clarity that only comes with prop;er contrast (both global and certainly micro contrast) and proper correction in the color domain. It simply doesn't impart itself onto the scene much - thus it has high (subjective) transparency and honesty. So that means if you're shooting a scene with true, real high frequency detail (and to be clear, not every scene, in fact, likely many a scene, does not containis), everything is preserved. Subtle differences are rendered quite well, things look realistic. The old train window analogy I've used before we'll trot out again. Scenic train in the alps, scenery is gorgeous. In the cheap car, in the back, you look out at the scenery through a plexiglass window with some scratches. Scene is still beautiful, you're thinking "wow, a trip of the lifetime". Then a guy you meet at the bar, who has a berth in the first class section, invites you to the dining car. Instead of plexiglass, you have really good glass for windows - so the view is even clearer. You have more of a direct connection to it - "there is less in the way", so to speak. You go "wow, you know, the first car was good, but man, this is better - it's great". The conductor hears you talking, and he's in a good mood, so he invites you to the locomotive, and there the wide window has been opened, and you have a view of the scenery, with absolutely no glass window or anything - just clear air between your eyeballs and the scene. Even better - more connection, more clarity, "less in the way", more transparency. So there is a progression of improvement. The plexi window in the budget car is your kit lens, your 28-300 zoom, your older AF-D prime that isn't that well corrected. Still good - no doubt, but not exceptional. The glass window in the first class dining car is an upgrade in terms of transparency and clarity - more direct connection, more realism. This is your really good pro manufacturer F/2.8 zoom, your basic good fast primes - 24/1.8G Nikon, Sigma 35/1.4 Art,, Nikon 85/1.4G, so on, so forth. The last experience - no glass at all - that's much, much rarer. That's your reference quality glass, your 200/2 Nikon, your 135/2 Apo Sonnar, your 85/1.4 Milvus and Otus, any of the 300 and 400 exotics. Not cheap. But they all share this same "get out of the way" quality. But it's an exclusive, rare club.

Yea, I know, I said I would make this quick (oops!) and I haven't even talked about the Milvus 85 yet. What I found, shooting both lens on the west coast recently, is that while neither lens gets to this level of reference quality wide open or at the first apertures near it, is that once you stop the lenses down into the landscape apertures, THATS when the "wow", this transparency, this last "no window on the train" occurs, within the context of *maintaining this quality through the edges of the frame*. The big difference? I find that with the Apo Sonnar I have to be a stop to a stop and a half (give or take) further stopped down to "enter" this quality "zone", if you will, and with the 85/1.4 Milvus, I don't have to be. Obviously assuming you have sufficient DOF. And we're talking at distance. I think the apo sonnar might have a slight edge in sharpness in closer ranges (although both are superb).

What this allows you to do, of course, is (with the Milvus 85) shoot at an aperture that is a bit further away from the land of diffraction, because the edges maintain the excellence better and "earlier" on the aperture dial than the apo sonnar. The apo sonnar (and the 85 otus) might have a bit better, in the very slightest degree of magnitude, central zone and central zone only resolution and micro contrast, but neither lens (I've shot both) maintains this quality to the edges as well. So it's a minor design tradeoff. In terms of walking you through an example, if you're in the US or ever been to the Heceta Head lighthouse north of Florence, OR, there is of course the often photographed view from the highway. LIghthouse near center frame, and the rock and trees it sits on to your right. Lots of foilage, and some details on the rocks because birds nest there. Nothing to the left of the frame (ocean) in the traditional 85 or 135mm view here. With the Apo Sonnar, even though everything is at infinity here, I am happiest with the textural detail and realism of the tree line if I'm at F/9, not really any earlier. Same shot, same day ,the Milvus 85 will achieve the proper textural detail and realism of the tree line and you can get away with F/5.6, maybe F/6.3. In an extremely subtle sense, I think the Milvus actually delineates the very fine tonal and color differences in the tree line a little bit better than the apo sonnar, but it's an extremely slight difference - both are excellent, and both are much better at providing these subtle differences than your 70-200/2.8 pro zoom or even an otherwise excellent lens like the Tamron 85/1.8 or Nikon 85/1.4G. I think it's because the Milvus design just slightly sacrifices the ultimate in central zone (which is the 85 Otus) to maintain the edges just a bit better through the majority of the frame. So if the Otus is a 10 in the central zone, the Apo Sonnar a 9.9, the Milvus is a 9.8. But at the edges, generally saying, the Otus and Apo Sonnar are maybe a 9 while the Milvus is a 9.3. Since I value, in a landscape lens, edge to edge performance, that's why I'm absolutely head over heels in love with the 85/1.4 Milvus. I honestly would not take an Otus in trade for that reason. Others obviously would - it depends on what you value the most. I can say, at this point, owning the 200/2, 135/2 apo sonnar, and the 85 milvus, that for what I value in a landscape lens, the 85 milvus is my favorite out of that very, very good group of reference grade lenses by the slightest of margins. When faced upon a scene, I always try the Milvus first to see if 85mm makes sense for the scene. If it does, great, if not, obviously I move on to the proper focal length. But Zeiss did something really special with that lens that matches up to what I value in lens performance, which is really what it's all about - figuring out what you value and which lens or lenses work the best within that viewpoint.

Very Important Note: The deepest of the deep corners of the Milvus are not amazing. The edges hold up, insanely so, but the very deepest corners of the Milvus never come into the range of excellence that the rest of the frame has. Doesn't bother me for what I do, but you should be aware of this.

So, to clarify, these are two world class lenses, some of the very best you can get, but I do see these differences after some extended usage now, but be aware the magnitude of difference is slight. But when you start comparing reference grade glass, that's what you will see. Someone (I think) who is "central zone" biased will be better with the apo sonnar and 85 Otus. I prefer a touch more evenness, so the Milvus is about as perfect a landscape lens as I've used... the deep corners are not likely to be in the frame as I probably will have a very slight crop going on (and the Milvus is a "loose" 85 - as opposed to the Tamron 85 which is almost a 90 in some ways, feel wise)

Hope that helps. At this level of performance, you need to rent to see how you feel though.

-m
 
Last edited:
It surprises me that most reviewers simply dismiss this advantage of the Sigma. My eyes aren't what they used to be, and the AF in my D810 does a much better job of focusing than I can, so most MF lenses are not a consideration. My choice was simple: get the one that focuses itself.
 
Mike, thank you for taking the time for such an in-depth commentary on these two fantastic lenses. Your analogies as well as the experiences that you've shared with us here are extremely helpful and valuable. I very much appreciate you doing this!

Best wishes,

No Regrets
 
How would you rate (numerically 1-9) the 200/2 in comparison?
I will try my best to not make this too long, but given I'm longwinded, I will likely fail!

What I love about the 135/2 Apo Sonnar is that at it's best, it gets out of the way - it has a clarity that only comes with prop;er contrast (both global and certainly micro contrast) and proper correction in the color domain. It simply doesn't impart itself onto the scene much - thus it has high (subjective) transparency and honesty. So that means if you're shooting a scene with true, real high frequency detail (and to be clear, not every scene, in fact, likely many a scene, does not containis), everything is preserved. Subtle differences are rendered quite well, things look realistic. The old train window analogy I've used before we'll trot out again. Scenic train in the alps, scenery is gorgeous. In the cheap car, in the back, you look out at the scenery through a plexiglass window with some scratches. Scene is still beautiful, you're thinking "wow, a trip of the lifetime". Then a guy you meet at the bar, who has a berth in the first class section, invites you to the dining car. Instead of plexiglass, you have really good glass for windows - so the view is even clearer. You have more of a direct connection to it - "there is less in the way", so to speak. You go "wow, you know, the first car was good, but man, this is better - it's great". The conductor hears you talking, and he's in a good mood, so he invites you to the locomotive, and there the wide window has been opened, and you have a view of the scenery, with absolutely no glass window or anything - just clear air between your eyeballs and the scene. Even better - more connection, more clarity, "less in the way", more transparency. So there is a progression of improvement. The plexi window in the budget car is your kit lens, your 28-300 zoom, your older AF-D prime that isn't that well corrected. Still good - no doubt, but not exceptional. The glass window in the first class dining car is an upgrade in terms of transparency and clarity - more direct connection, more realism. This is your really good pro manufacturer F/2.8 zoom, your basic good fast primes - 24/1.8G Nikon, Sigma 35/1.4 Art,, Nikon 85/1.4G, so on, so forth. The last experience - no glass at all - that's much, much rarer. That's your reference quality glass, your 200/2 Nikon, your 135/2 Apo Sonnar, your 85/1.4 Milvus and Otus, any of the 300 and 400 exotics. Not cheap. But they all share this same "get out of the way" quality. But it's an exclusive, rare club.

Yea, I know, I said I would make this quick (oops!) and I haven't even talked about the Milvus 85 yet. What I found, shooting both lens on the west coast recently, is that while neither lens gets to this level of reference quality wide open or at the first apertures near it, is that once you stop the lenses down into the landscape apertures, THATS when the "wow", this transparency, this last "no window on the train" occurs, within the context of *maintaining this quality through the edges of the frame*. The big difference? I find that with the Apo Sonnar I have to be a stop to a stop and a half (give or take) further stopped down to "enter" this quality "zone", if you will, and with the 85/1.4 Milvus, I don't have to be. Obviously assuming you have sufficient DOF. And we're talking at distance. I think the apo sonnar might have a slight edge in sharpness in closer ranges (although both are superb).

What this allows you to do, of course, is (with the Milvus 85) shoot at an aperture that is a bit further away from the land of diffraction, because the edges maintain the excellence better and "earlier" on the aperture dial than the apo sonnar. The apo sonnar (and the 85 otus) might have a bit better, in the very slightest degree of magnitude, central zone and central zone only resolution and micro contrast, but neither lens (I've shot both) maintains this quality to the edges as well. So it's a minor design tradeoff. In terms of walking you through an example, if you're in the US or ever been to the Heceta Head lighthouse north of Florence, OR, there is of course the often photographed view from the highway. LIghthouse near center frame, and the rock and trees it sits on to your right. Lots of foilage, and some details on the rocks because birds nest there. Nothing to the left of the frame (ocean) in the traditional 85 or 135mm view here. With the Apo Sonnar, even though everything is at infinity here, I am happiest with the textural detail and realism of the tree line if I'm at F/9, not really any earlier. Same shot, same day ,the Milvus 85 will achieve the proper textural detail and realism of the tree line and you can get away with F/5.6, maybe F/6.3. In an extremely subtle sense, I think the Milvus actually delineates the very fine tonal and color differences in the tree line a little bit better than the apo sonnar, but it's an extremely slight difference - both are excellent, and both are much better at providing these subtle differences than your 70-200/2.8 pro zoom or even an otherwise excellent lens like the Tamron 85/1.8 or Nikon 85/1.4G. I think it's because the Milvus design just slightly sacrifices the ultimate in central zone (which is the 85 Otus) to maintain the edges just a bit better through the majority of the frame. So if the Otus is a 10 in the central zone, the Apo Sonnar a 9.9, the Milvus is a 9.8. But at the edges, generally saying, the Otus and Apo Sonnar are maybe a 9 while the Milvus is a 9.3. Since I value, in a landscape lens, edge to edge performance, that's why I'm absolutely head over heels in love with the 85/1.4 Milvus. I honestly would not take an Otus in trade for that reason. Others obviously would - it depends on what you value the most. I can say, at this point, owning the 200/2, 135/2 apo sonnar, and the 85 milvus, that for what I value in a landscape lens, the 85 milvus is my favorite out of that very, very good group of reference grade lenses by the slightest of margins. When faced upon a scene, I always try the Milvus first to see if 85mm makes sense for the scene. If it does, great, if not, obviously I move on to the proper focal length. But Zeiss did something really special with that lens that matches up to what I value in lens performance, which is really what it's all about - figuring out what you value and which lens or lenses work the best within that viewpoint.

Very Important Note: The deepest of the deep corners of the Milvus are not amazing. The edges hold up, insanely so, but the very deepest corners of the Milvus never come into the range of excellence that the rest of the frame has. Doesn't bother me for what I do, but you should be aware of this.

So, to clarify, these are two world class lenses, some of the very best you can get, but I do see these differences after some extended usage now, but be aware the magnitude of difference is slight. But when you start comparing reference grade glass, that's what you will see. Someone (I think) who is "central zone" biased will be better with the apo sonnar and 85 Otus. I prefer a touch more evenness, so the Milvus is about as perfect a landscape lens as I've used... the deep corners are not likely to be in the frame as I probably will have a very slight crop going on (and the Milvus is a "loose" 85 - as opposed to the Tamron 85 which is almost a 90 in some ways, feel wise)

Hope that helps. At this level of performance, you need to rent to see how you feel though.

-m
 
Last edited:
It surprises me that most reviewers simply dismiss this advantage of the Sigma. My eyes aren't what they used to be, and the AF in my D810 does a much better job of focusing than I can, so most MF lenses are not a consideration. My choice was simple: get the one that focuses itself.
 
Hmm. The 200/2 seems to be in a different family to me - not a better/worse family, just a different one - I can somewhat see/compare an 85 and a 135, but 200 is a vastly different focal length. The 200/2 is more even to the edges at the wider apertures, but I might give the central resolution, just barely, to the Apo Sonnar. Just hard to compare these guys - they are all excellent with minor differences that I think someone who is very picky will come to realize exist between them.

-m
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top