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Leica Lens Authenticity ?

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eazizisaid

eazizisaid

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Hello guys,

I had this unfortunate transaction i made with a member of a french forum.

I sold him my second hand 50 Summicron, the latest cosmetic version made around 2004 based on the S/N.

He bought the lens for around a grand this Sunday and he contacted me today saying that lens was never made by Leica !

All my lenses are registered in the Leica Member area but i called Leica Miami anyways who transfered me to i suppose the HQ of Leica in the US, they looked in the database but confirmed that lens's S/N is indeed in the range of the 50mm F2 lenses but wasn't imported in the US.

I never heard of a counterfeit Leica lens since i got three others and the product is genuine, used it of my Ex-M7 and actual A7 for years and it produced stunning results.

How can i sort this out, since he refuses to handle it to a Leica store for checking but at the same is asking me to a refund !

What should i do ?

Thanks you guys !
 
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So, Leica verified it was a Leica Lens. . Correct? As I read your post that appears to be the case. What recourse does the buyer have? Did you sell this through something like E-Bay or other organization that has some kind of buyer protection? If you are willing to refund his purchase of the lens, upon satisfactory return, he should either put up or go away. Once you have it in your hands, send back the money and sell it again. This time with the information that Leica provided. Where it was originally sold should not be an issue. Good luck. I'd say you may be in the 'Driver's street'. . .
 
To what Fred said.
 
Fred Holzapfel said:
So, Leica verified it was a Leica Lens. . Correct?
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They only confirmed that the S/N is between the range of the 50 F2 lenses produced. But they didn't imported it in the US, which i find normal since the original buyer was european and i've bought from him there. I still need to confirm with Leica Germany, but i'm 1000% sure that it is a Leica lens, being held and used by other Leicaphilist... Furthermore the Miami store also confirmed that there isnt any counterfeit Leica Lens from their knowledge.
Fred Holzapfel said:
As I read your post that appears to be the case. What recourse does the buyer have? Did you sell this through something like E-Bay or other organization that has some kind of buyer protection?
Click to expand...
Nope.
Fred Holzapfel said:
If you are willing to refund his purchase of the lens, upon satisfactory return, he should either put up or go away. Once you have it in your hands, send back the money and sell it again. This time with the information that Leica provided. Where it was originally sold should not be an issue. Good luck. I'd say you may be in the 'Driver's street'. . .
Click to expand...
Well actually he didn't believe anything i said, he didn't want to check the lens in a store and he had the lens for 4 days now... so as he didn't trust me, i don't trust him in return.

He checked the lens before buying and who knows now, he may had dropped it, altered it in some kind of way and now he's asking for a refund...

Thing now is that he polluted the topic where i've offered to sell my lenses and now probably others will hesitate from buying my lenses based on doubts !

Is there a way to check the history or authenticity of a lens based on a S/N alone ?

Thank you very much !
 
eazizisaid said:
Fred Holzapfel said:
So, Leica verified it was a Leica Lens. . Correct?
Click to expand...
They only confirmed that the S/N is between the range of the 50 F2 lenses produced. But they didn't imported it in the US, which i find normal since the original buyer was european and i've bought from him there. I still need to confirm with Leica Germany, but i'm 1000% sure that it is a Leica lens, being held and used by other Leicaphilist... Furthermore the Miami store also confirmed that there isnt any counterfeit Leica Lens from their knowledge.
eazizisaid said:
As I read your post that appears to be the case. What recourse does the buyer have? Did you sell this through something like E-Bay or other organization that has some kind of buyer protection?
Click to expand...
Nope.
eazizisaid said:
If you are willing to refund his purchase of the lens, upon satisfactory return, he should either put up or go away. Once you have it in your hands, send back the money and sell it again. This time with the information that Leica provided. Where it was originally sold should not be an issue. Good luck. I'd say you may be in the 'Driver's street'. . .
Click to expand...
Well actually he didn't believe anything i said, he didn't want to check the lens in a store and he had the lens for 4 days now... so as he didn't trust me, i don't trust him in return.

He checked the lens before buying and who knows now, he may had dropped it, altered it in some kind of way and now he's asking for a refund...

Thing now is that he polluted the topic where i've offered to sell my lenses and now probably others will hesitate from buying my lenses based on doubts !

Is there a way to check the history or authenticity of a lens based on a S/N alone ?

Thank you very much !
Click to expand...
Sounds like buyer's remorse. I'd refuse to take it back or at least get it back and have it checked before refund. I am aware of no Leica counterfeits.
 
It's always difficult to determine the correct reaction to stories such as this, particularly since we have only one side of the story. No offense intended.

However, taking the information we're given at face value, if he wants to return the lens for examination I think I'd just give him his money back and sell it again.

If that doesn't work for him I think I'd tell the guy to pissuparope :)

--
http://www.nightstreets.com
-
"Sick cultures show a complex of symptoms such as you have named...but a dying culture invariable exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners is more significant than a riot."
This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health but as proof of his/her strength. ...Friday, it is too late to save this culture--this worldwide culture... Therefore we must now prepare the monasteries for the coming Dark Age. Electronic records are too fragile..."
--Robert A. Heinlein in "Friday"
 
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Schroedingers_cat said:
It's always difficult to determine the correct reaction to stories such as this, particularly since we have only one side of the story. No offense intended.

However, taking the information we're given at face value, if he wants to return the lens for examination I think I'd just give him his money back and sell it again.

If that doesn't work for him I think I'd tell the guy to pissuparope :)

--
http://www.nightstreets.com
-
"Sick cultures show a complex of symptoms such as you have named...but a dying culture invariable exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners is more significant than a riot."
This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health but as proof of his/her strength. ...Friday, it is too late to save this culture--this worldwide culture... Therefore we must now prepare the monasteries for the coming Dark Age. Electronic records are too fragile..."
--Robert A. Heinlein in "Friday"
Click to expand...
None taken.

It's just that now there's 3000 miles separating us... since i'm no more in France.

And just for the record i tried to be as objective as possible...

Does registering the lens in the members area means nothing then ? Because the lens is registered and the Lens model appeared without typing anything. I though -Still do- that this couldn't be done with something non genuine !

Thank you !
 
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eazizisaid said:
Schroedingers_cat said:
It's always difficult to determine the correct reaction to stories such as this, particularly since we have only one side of the story. No offense intended.

However, taking the information we're given at face value, if he wants to return the lens for examination I think I'd just give him his money back and sell it again.

If that doesn't work for him I think I'd tell the guy to pissuparope :)

--
http://www.nightstreets.com
-
"Sick cultures show a complex of symptoms such as you have named...but a dying culture invariable exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners is more significant than a riot."
This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health but as proof of his/her strength. ...Friday, it is too late to save this culture--this worldwide culture... Therefore we must now prepare the monasteries for the coming Dark Age. Electronic records are too fragile..."
--Robert A. Heinlein in "Friday"
Click to expand...
None taken.

It's just that now there's 3000 miles separating us... since i'm no more in France.

And just for the record i tried to be as objective as possible...

Does registering the lens in the members area means nothing then ? Because the lens is registered and the Lens model appeared without typing anything. I though -Still do- that this couldn't be done with something non genuine !

Thank you !
Click to expand...
I suspect that I could find a lens on eBay where the photograph displays the serial number and then register that lens in my name with no problem. Might have to try a couple of times to find one not previously registered, but I bet you lunch I can eventually do it.

So, yes, I strongly suspect it is meaningless in any useful context to register your lens with Leica. Certainly in regard to determining whether the lens is counterfeit, as you are authenticating a serial number not a lens.

I also tend to strongly doubt that there is any such thing as a counterfeit Leica lens.

If he doesn't want to return the lens for your examination pending a refund then I'd say you're done.

--
http://www.nightstreets.com
-
"Sick cultures show a complex of symptoms such as you have named...but a dying culture invariable exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners is more significant than a riot."
This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health but as proof of his/her strength. ...Friday, it is too late to save this culture--this worldwide culture... Therefore we must now prepare the monasteries for the coming Dark Age. Electronic records are too fragile..."
--Robert A. Heinlein in "Friday"
 
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Schroedingers_cat said:
eazizisaid said:
Schroedingers_cat said:
It's always difficult to determine the correct reaction to stories such as this, particularly since we have only one side of the story. No offense intended.

However, taking the information we're given at face value, if he wants to return the lens for examination I think I'd just give him his money back and sell it again.

If that doesn't work for him I think I'd tell the guy to pissuparope :)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
eazizisaid said:
The idea was that if i could register a lens i have in my hand on the Leica members area, it's going to be a real Leica lens isn't ?

Thanks
Click to expand...
No, it's going to be a real Leica serial number. Maybe.

Just out of curiosity I just registered the Tri Elmar that I'm buying from JD. (yes, JD, just run the check through again, I'm sure it will clear this time :) ).

While I was in there I registered a SECOND Tri Elmar, which I certainly don't have, and when it wanted a serial number I just took the number from the one I'm looking at and added 1. Registered just fine and I have no idea what so ever where the real lens might be or who it belongs to. (and then deleted the bogus lens :) ). I assume, but didn't have enough interest to experiment further, that it checks whether the serial number entered is in the range of lenses produced for the type lens selected, but I wouldn't bet money that it even checks that. It might count for the correct number of digits.

Academic question anyway, as long as YOU know it's a good lens, I contend that you're STILL done.

--
http://www.nightstreets.com
-
"Sick cultures show a complex of symptoms such as you have named...but a dying culture invariable exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners is more significant than a riot."
This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health but as proof of his/her strength. ...Friday, it is too late to save this culture--this worldwide culture... Therefore we must now prepare the monasteries for the coming Dark Age. Electronic records are too fragile..."
--Robert A. Heinlein in "Friday"
 
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Schroedingers_cat said:
eazizisaid said:
The idea was that if i could register a lens i have in my hand on the Leica members area, it's going to be a real Leica lens isn't ?

Thanks
Click to expand...
No, it's going to be a real Leica serial number. Maybe.

Just out of curiosity I just registered the Tri Elmar that I'm buying from JD. (yes, JD, just run the check through again, I'm sure it will clear this time :) ).
Click to expand...
:-D:-D:-D
 
JDLaing said:
JDLaing said:
Just out of curiosity I just registered the Tri Elmar that I'm buying from JD. (yes, JD, just run the check through again, I'm sure it will clear this time :) ).
Click to expand...
:-D:-D:-D
Click to expand...
As long as I'm here and on the subject, JD has been an incredible gentleman regarding helping me obtain one of these wonderful Tri Elmar 28-35-50 lenses that he could have sold on eBay for significantly more than he charged me.

Thanx JD.
 
You're welcome.
 
Schroedingers_cat said:
eazizisaid said:
The idea was that if i could register a lens i have in my hand on the Leica members area, it's going to be a real Leica lens isn't ?

Thanks
Click to expand...
No, it's going to be a real Leica serial number. Maybe.

Just out of curiosity I just registered the Tri Elmar that I'm buying from JD. (yes, JD, just run the check through again, I'm sure it will clear this time :) ).

While I was in there I registered a SECOND Tri Elmar, which I certainly don't have, and when it wanted a serial number I just took the number from the one I'm looking at and added 1. Registered just fine and I have no idea what so ever where the real lens might be or who it belongs to. (and then deleted the bogus lens :) ). I assume, but didn't have enough interest to experiment further, that it checks whether the serial number entered is in the range of lenses produced for the type lens selected, but I wouldn't bet money that it even checks that. It might count for the correct number of digits.

Academic question anyway, as long as YOU know it's a good lens, I contend that you're STILL done.
Click to expand...
 
Take some advice from someone who has been an ebayer for over 10 years...offer to refund the money less your cost to ship the lens, but only after it is returned to you in the same condition that it was sent. Then relist it specifying that it is an imported lens so as to avoid the same hassle again.

There is rarely anything gained by arguing over things like this and not only does ebay usually take the side of the buyer, you will most certainly receive some nasty negative feedback from him. You may even be able to recover your ebay fees if you explain the entire situation to them.

I know this is not the prevailing thought in this thread but I am just basing it on my own experiences. Good cooperation and good customer service brings good things. NOT cooperating rarely does anything for you but satisfy your own self. Sometimes, you have to just give in a little to satisfy your 'customer." It just might pay off one day.

By the way, use the ebay messaging system to offer the refund. This way, if it comes back to you damaged, you can show ebay that you were acting in good faith and they are more likely to believe you if you tell them that he damaged the lens. And if it DOES come back damaged, I would then bring this to his attention and tell him (again using eBay's messaging) that he will not receive the refund. You will have all the documentation on your side...keep in mind that he has NOT said the lens was damaged when he first asked you for the refund, so he cannot claim as such once the dispute reaches ebay (if it comes to that).
 
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Jay A said:
Take some advice from someone who has been an ebayer for over 10 years...offer to refund the money less your cost to ship the lens, but only after it is returned to you in the same condition that it was sent. Then relist it specifying that it is an imported lens so as to avoid the same hassle again.

There is rarely anything gained by arguing over things like this and not only does ebay usually take the side of the buyer, you will most certainly receive some nasty negative feedback from him. You may even be able to recover your ebay fees if you explain the entire situation to them.

I know this is not the prevailing thought in this thread but I am just basing it on my own experiences. Good cooperation and good customer service brings good things. NOT cooperating rarely does anything for you but satisfy your own self. Sometimes, you have to just give in a little to satisfy your 'customer." It just might pay off one day.

By the way, use the ebay messaging system to offer the refund. This way, if it comes back to you damaged, you can show ebay that you were acting in good faith and they are more likely to believe you if you tell them that he damaged the lens. And if it DOES come back damaged, I would then bring this to his attention and tell him (again using eBay's messaging) that he will not receive the refund. You will have all the documentation on your side...keep in mind that he has NOT said the lens was damaged when he first asked you for the refund, so he cannot claim as such once the dispute reaches ebay (if it comes to that).
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Thank you very much for your input.

First of all, the lens wasn't sold on Ebay, but i sold it to him after we've met, after he thoroughly verified it.

He did report on the forum that the lens matches the description, that it is clean, but he says that he called a Leica store in Paris and they couldn't confirm that the lens was manufactured by Leica because they don't have that S/N listed in their database.

When i called Leica Miami and the HQ of Leica in the States, they confirmed that the lens serial number is indeed between the range of the 50mm F2 but since they didn't imported that specific lens, they don't have it listed in their database.

I've cooporated with the client and been helpful but he accused me of fraud based on a single phone call he made... he didn't even check the Lens with a store and he keeps asking for a refund...

Anyways, i appreciate you sharing your experience. It's been helpful.

Thank you
 
The lens will be a genuine Leica lens - there are no fake M lenses (or if anyone tried to pass off another brand as Leica, i.e. a Voigtlander, it should be very obvious!).

Given that the sale was done in person, the buyer has seen the lens before purchasing, I would be suspicious that he has damaged it in some way.

My response would be, sorry but the lens IS a genuine Leica lens, you inspected it before purchasing, but if you still have doubts take it to any Leica dealer who can confirm that it is what it is.

The guy sounds like an idiot.
 
COYQ said:
The lens will be a genuine Leica lens - there are no fake M lenses (or if anyone tried to pass off another brand as Leica, i.e. a Voigtlander, it should be very obvious!).

Given that the sale was done in person, the buyer has seen the lens before purchasing, I would be suspicious that he has damaged it in some way.

My response would be, sorry but the lens IS a genuine Leica lens, you inspected it before purchasing, but if you still have doubts take it to any Leica dealer who can confirm that it is what it is.

The guy sounds like an idiot.
Click to expand...
Kudos about the last statment.

I just sent him that exact same answer.

Thank you for the help!
 
Update :

I recieved a mail from Leica at ([email protected]). The lens is indeed produced by Leica in 2003.

So that i suppose have been proof enough !

Thank you
 
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