Got a7rii 3 days ago - two weddings later, conclusion= Tony N is on payola


the lack of a decent focusing system beyond AF,
On this point we are in total agreement. The viewfinder MF aids provided by Nikon and Canon are terrible. I don't use MF lenses on my Nikon, generally, even if they are Nikon! At least not for handheld shooting. My A7R is so superior it's not even funny. On a tripod, the D810 is actually quite excellent, but I wouldn't mind actually being able to shoot one of my MF teles on it.

Anyways, Nikon's missed the boat totally with the Df...all that hype and then just a green dot? Really?
I think this is subjective. I've always preferred the green/white dot system to focus peaking. It's the closest to the accuracy I can get from a rangefinder or split prism SLR. I think this all turns on the ability to see peripherally (or not).

In contrast focus peaking is a bit of a "I hope this time it's in focus system" when used for stills. Fuji offers alternatives to peaking too, which I think work better (the split image system and the picture within a picture give better results).

Frankly though, for shooting manually, nothing really beats a rangefinder for accuracy.
 
Hi Thomas,

I appreciate sharing your thoughts on those cameras. I made up my mind and go with the 5Ds. I'm on my way to the camera store now. This camera should last me at least seven years just like the 5DmkII :-)

Jose
Jose,

I think for fashion the eye focus (and on-sensor accuracy of focus) of the A7R2 is a must-have. Not sure that the 5DS brings to the fashion table that is comparable?
Jose,

My assistants and I haven't been able to duplicate the accuracy of the focus of the 5D Mark III and the 5DSr with the native lenses on the Sony A7RII. Maybe in time we will gain that ability working with the camera.
Thomas,

I figure that DSLRs are still slightly better in AF performance. Having said that I'm blown away by my A6000's AF performance in challenging scenarios like model coming right at me or even tennis.
José, I think you will appreciate the new eye-AF in AF-C mode in the a7R-ii! That should be awesome for portrait work!

 
because the refresh just can't keep up. On another note I just tried static shots with my Canon 24-105, 16-35mm,70-200, 100 macro, 85mm 1.2 and the 50 1.2 with great success. The files look excellent. I didn't try any tracking shots yet. The only lens I own that wouldn't work is my 135mm.
Your reprt on the "100 macro" just caught my attention: Was it the 100/ F 2.8 IS model? With that one, I had found AF to be quite unusable when I tried it with my Metabones III.

Could you say a bit more about your experience?

Thanks

Fritz
 
Frankly though, for shooting manually, nothing really beats a rangefinder for accuracy.
Frankly, if I lived near you, I would challenge you in a MF speed and accuracy duel. You with your M240 and Summicron 50 f2, me with a A7S and Loxia 50 f2. It could be interesting. :)
 
How about if we look at a picture of your A7rii and your d800 sitting on the table next to each other? Maybe that will shut people up.
Better still, just a still life photo taken with the D800 sitting on a window ledge next to a bowl of fruit, a reflection of the photographer with their A7RII in its lens, gently side-lit by a flickering candle and with just the merest hint of an impending golden sunrise outside. That would suffice. I don't need to see wedding pix ;-)
I sold my d800 a year ago. Its a decent camera. I have no use for it. I replaced it with an a7s. Like I said there are a million photos from a7rii on the internet. go look at them. Having a professional photog do a still life won't show you anything. Given enough time and a tripod I can make a canon rebel look like its taking mint shot. Why bother.
Well as you've coaxed me into another reply, here's what I think.

I think you said that what you get right out of the camera at a wedding shoot looks like 'fine art', so I wanted to see it for myself, but I can't. And looking at millions of A7RII photos on the internet doesn't help me visualise what you asserted.

I think that there are lots of creative people who can visualise what they want to capture, use just about any imaging device to record a foundation, then reshape it into something artful in software. The best of them undeniably produce some 'fine art' with time and effort.

So here's a proposition if you can find the time. Why not present a fine art look wedding picture (it doesn't have to be yours, or even from an A7RII), as an example of the fine art look that the A7RII can make 'out of camera' at weddings ? If you can't find a 'fine art' looking wedding example, why not just present any 'fine art' looking photograph as an example (it doesn't have to be yours, or even from an A7RII) of the kind of 'fine art' looking image that an A7RII can make straight out of camera ?
 
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I know this was written as a bit of a wind up for amusement value, so I'll treat it as such. However, there's a lot of inaccuracy in this post. The thing is Nikon owners have an exceptional range of native and third party glass to use without adapters, the best of examples of which outperform each and every native mount FE lens in existence. It's all very well to say that lenses like the Otus and Sigma Art lenses can be used on the A7 range too, but using adaptors is liable to introduce optical aberrations and frankly it's a lot easier to hold a D810 size body with a large and/or heavy lens mounted. Your rant about lenses also conceals the optically excellent/reasonably priced truth of the Nikon F1.8 range, which no other manufacturer has an answer to. It also misses a basic truth that a lot of DSLR users shoot DSLRs because they prefer to see the reflected image in an OVF vs an EVF. Some of us also prefer the white dot system for MF to peaking...

The point regarding sharpening is real and the A7R II RAWs can't be pushed as hard as those from a D810 or D750 in LR. Historically we've seen objective testing that confirms Nikon is able to push more performance from the same sensor compared to Sony.

If you are a canon owner, I can see lots of arguments to switch given the ever improving possibilities of AF for Canon lenses on Sony bodies. If you are a Nikon owner, many of those arguments are less persuasive. For example, you've completely misunderstood the D810, which was a revolutionary camera because Nikon rethought basic things like the AF and the shutter to make it a much easier and more satisfying camera to use. A camera version of the MacBook if you will, and people who claim it's no different probably never had the experience of using it and its predecessors for long periods. There are things Nikon could do better, notably video, incorporating wifi into more bodies and increasing its speed.

None of this means of course that the Sony A7 line doesn't have its own USPs. That's why, historically, I've owned one. But to claim a group of owners collectively are crazy because they have different priorities to you is a little crazy in itself...


The last thing the guys defending the sinking ship Nikon want to look at are the superb images coming from the Sonys, with either FE, Batis or fine legacy lenses - none of which they can actually use - having to solely put up with the crusty, stale range of Nikkors instead (they actually still make a handful of manual focus lenses as a reminder of what they could once do).

No no. Instead of that, the high powered displays are used to scrupulously examine every little tiny thing that might be there if you can just ignore the fabulous images. You know, 0.2 stops of DR IF you shoot at ISO 64.

Photo shock jock Lloyd Chambers was quoted at SAR as saying he could sharpen his Nikon files four times more without them falling apart like the bad Sonys do, he thinks Sony 'cooks'.

read it, that is why he wrote it:

'While I can double or quadruple sharpening on a Nikon D810 file with minimal ill effects, doing so on a Sony A7R or A7R II files looks godawful.'

Jesus wept - all photographers work very hard to get sharpening just right for each file and here - four times! Some bragging right eh? Like turning the amp to 11 like the Spinal Tap muso airhead. Unreal is the world they inhabit - quite literally. It seems to be more religion dogma than balanced analysis - get some perspective guys. Context matters..

Push well aside however: the better high ISO, IBIS, EVF aids, silent shutter, video, we don't need to hear about that kind of flexibility, oh no.

These are pure operational improvements, the things that actually assist real photographers in real world photography, features that broaden the scope of use cases way beyond the natural home of Nikon; and don't mention where they got the sensor, or how little changed the D810 is over the last 2-3 models they pumped out for the faithful to swoon over.

Seriously, if I had the misfortune to have a Nikon system I'd be all over their forum moaning about the lack of functionality of the things, the backward direction of that narrow focus company, the lack of high IQ cutting edge lenses to match Sony/Zeiss, the lack of a decent focusing system beyond AF, the lack of a decent size/weight travel system, the seeming loss of direction, the drowning not waving...the unidimensionality of the cameras.

What is the best they can manage to accompany the pseudo-scientific gobbledygook? Yep, that trademark sneering condescension that accompanies each and every foray into another camera brand's public places. Nice.

But most Sony users are more mature than that, in fact many are reformed old world camera users who saw which way the wind was blowing, and wanted some of the innovation, they saw what the gain in sheer image quality could do for them, for their work.

'Come over to the dark side' whispers the silent, strong, versatile a7rII, lol.
It's good fun, but you do need a sense of humor to watch the spectacle these days.
 
Frankly though, for shooting manually, nothing really beats a rangefinder for accuracy.
Frankly, if I lived near you, I would challenge you in a MF speed and accuracy duel. You with your M240 and Summicron 50 f2, me with a A7S and Loxia 50 f2. It could be interesting. :)
What would be more interesting is if both of us swapped cameras and lenses for a week, used them constantly and then compared notes
 
your flickr album has two different camera model if you're looking at the title and the subtitle. :)
LOL - I have too much practice in writing A7 II (I owned one until my purchase of the A7R II), Duly updated
 
Hi Thomas,

I appreciate sharing your thoughts on those cameras. I made up my mind and go with the 5Ds. I'm on my way to the camera store now. This camera should last me at least seven years just like the 5DmkII :-)

Jose
Jose,

I think for fashion the eye focus (and on-sensor accuracy of focus) of the A7R2 is a must-have. Not sure that the 5DS brings to the fashion table that is comparable?
Jose,

My assistants and I haven't been able to duplicate the accuracy of the focus of the 5D Mark III and the 5DSr with the native lenses on the Sony A7RII. Maybe in time we will gain that ability working with the camera.
Thomas,

I figure that DSLRs are still slightly better in AF performance. Having said that I'm blown away by my A6000's AF performance in challenging scenarios like model coming right at me or even tennis.
José, I think you will appreciate the new eye-AF in AF-C mode in the a7R-ii! That should be awesome for portrait work!

Actually spacemn I didn't get the A7RII, instead I bought the 5Ds. I just have a more complete lens lineup than with my Canons than e-mounts.

José
 
Frankly though, for shooting manually, nothing really beats a rangefinder for accuracy.
Frankly, if I lived near you, I would challenge you in a MF speed and accuracy duel. You with your M240 and Summicron 50 f2, me with a A7S and Loxia 50 f2. It could be interesting. :)
What would be more interesting is if both of us swapped cameras and lenses for a week, used them constantly and then compared notes
 
I'm starting to get the impression that Tony's insights are not up to his gravitas and claims. A few weeks ago he had to backtrack on his dissing extenders. Now this new set of dubious conclusions.
 
I'm starting to get the impression that Tony's insights are not up to his gravitas and claims. A few weeks ago he had to backtrack on his dissing extenders. Now this new set of dubious conclusions.

--
Michael S
Please be a little more specific about which of his conclusions that you disagree with.

I watched his video twice and never felt he was dissing the A7RII.
I agree here, i don't feel he was biased towards any one camera in the video or said anything bad about the sony.

The 5DSR simply has more detail, it's 50mp vs the 42mp in the sony and 36 in the nikon. That was pretty much a given without the video, just look at the spec sheet. The canon focused better with it's native lenses at long telephoto and low light, that's also a given. Those are really the only good things he said about the canon, i hardly feel a payola conspiracy here.
 
the lack of a decent focusing system beyond AF,
On this point we are in total agreement. The viewfinder MF aids provided by Nikon and Canon are terrible. I don't use MF lenses on my Nikon, generally, even if they are Nikon! At least not for handheld shooting. My A7R is so superior it's not even funny. On a tripod, the D810 is actually quite excellent, but I wouldn't mind actually being able to shoot one of my MF teles on it.

Anyways, Nikon's missed the boat totally with the Df...all that hype and then just a green dot? Really?
I think this is subjective. I've always preferred the green/white dot system to focus peaking. It's the closest to the accuracy I can get from a rangefinder or split prism SLR. I think this all turns on the ability to see peripherally (or not).

In contrast focus peaking is a bit of a "I hope this time it's in focus system" when used for stills. Fuji offers alternatives to peaking too, which I think work better (the split image system and the picture within a picture give better results).

Frankly though, for shooting manually, nothing really beats a rangefinder for accuracy.

--
http://sgoldswoblog.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sgoldswo/
After using Leica RF's from the IIIa through the M9 on more lenses than I could ever remember I can state, without equivocation that ...

My Sony A7 and A7r2 are far more accurate for MF than any Leica RF I ever used.

Also, more dependable and more versatile.

Under ideal conditions, the RF is very fast though. It is a close call as to which is speedier in good light when using central focus and a smallish aperature.

-Bill
 
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the lack of a decent focusing system beyond AF,
On this point we are in total agreement. The viewfinder MF aids provided by Nikon and Canon are terrible. I don't use MF lenses on my Nikon, generally, even if they are Nikon! At least not for handheld shooting. My A7R is so superior it's not even funny. On a tripod, the D810 is actually quite excellent, but I wouldn't mind actually being able to shoot one of my MF teles on it.

Anyways, Nikon's missed the boat totally with the Df...all that hype and then just a green dot? Really?
I think this is subjective. I've always preferred the green/white dot system to focus peaking. It's the closest to the accuracy I can get from a rangefinder or split prism SLR. I think this all turns on the ability to see peripherally (or not).
Yes, personal preference for sure. I find that, to get accurate focus on the D810, I have to quite slowly watch the dot blink into confirmation to make sure I've nailed it, something that takes more time and takes my eyes off the subject. Focus peaking with magnification on a custom button works faster for me. Just focus peaking without magnification is, as you note, is pretty bad for accuracy. I have to use it set to high and only then do I get appropriate peaking during mag.

With Df, I feel that Nikon really missed an opportunity to re-imagine MF. Perhaps a digital rangefinder like my X100s? That way you can see the dot blinking across a scale as it moves towards focus. Maybe even a dot for plane of focus and two lines for limit of DOF. It just seems like more could have been done.
In contrast focus peaking is a bit of a "I hope this time it's in focus system" when used for stills. Fuji offers alternatives to peaking too, which I think work better (the split image system and the picture within a picture give better results).
I love the Live View split image on the D810. For me, this is my new favourite tripod mode. I find the current Nikon LV implementation to be among the best, actually, especially for leveling.
 
The thing is Nikon owners have an exceptional range of native and third party glass to use without adapters, the best of examples of which outperform each and every native mount FE lens in existence.
The FE 16-35, 35/1.4, 55/1.8 and 90 macro are easily as good or better than any Nikon equivalent. The Batis 25/85 are also very good. Otis and ZF lenses can be adapted so that's a push. Nikon has more native lenses, but virtually everything can be adapted to E-mount.

A-mount glass fills out the lineup and you get full AF and IBIS with LAEA3 on the A7RII. Canon has comparable lenses across the range and most can be adapted to the A7RII with fill OS/AF capabilities. You may not want to include those, but in the real world people actually using the camera will include them as part of the available lenses.

Nikon's range of lenses is severely limited by the mount, pretty much every lens ever made can be adapted to the E-mount. Why limit yourself to Nikon mount glass when there's so many other great lenses available?
 
The thing is Nikon owners have an exceptional range of native and third party glass to use without adapters, the best of examples of which outperform each and every native mount FE lens in existence.
The FE 16-35, 35/1.4, 55/1.8 and 90 macro are easily as good or better than any Nikon equivalent. The Batis 25/85 are also very good. Otis and ZF lenses can be adapted so that's a push. Nikon has more native lenses, but virtually everything can be adapted to E-mount.
It isn't just Nikon who makes glass for the F mount though. The FE 16-35 is a very good little lens that outperforms the Nikon 16-35 for resolution, but it is outperformed itself by the Nikon 14-24 and 18-35mm lenses (the latter of which is a budget lens). For that matter, the Tamron 15-30 is comparably priced and gives even better results than the Nikon 14-24. The Sigma Art 35mm in Nikon mount outperforms the Sony/Zeiss 35mm lens and the Sony/Zeiss 55mm lens has better bokeh than the Sigma Art 50mm lens but is otherwise outperformed, particularly for resolution. I will happily give you the 90 macro as being better than the Nikon equivalent. Otus and ZF.2 lenses from Zeiss can be adapted, but why would I introduce the compromise of an adapter* and a body that's less comfortable to hold with heavy glass mounted?

Regardless, this isn't lens top trumps. A lens that's reasonable in cost but lighter and/or smaller might get you a shot that you might miss in other circumstances. This goes for the FE lenses as much as it goes for Nikon F1.8G primes.

A-mount glass fills out the lineup and you get full AF and IBIS with LAEA3 on the A7RII. Canon has comparable lenses across the range and most can be adapted to the A7RII with fill OS/AF capabilities. You may not want to include those, but in the real world people actually using the camera will include them as part of the available lenses.

Nikon's range of lenses is severely limited by the mount, pretty much every lens ever made can be adapted to the E-mount. Why limit yourself to Nikon mount glass when there's so many other great lenses available?
Because adapters* reduce optical performance and introduce aberrations. You may not want to hear that if you use adapted glass, but: http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/09/there-is-no-free-lunch-episode-763-lens-adapters

I've shot with adapted lenses on A7 series cameras (Nikon and Contax G) and more extensively on Sony NEX, M43s and Fuji X cameras (Nikon, Leica M, Voigtlander and Contax G). In the end I've come to the conclusion I would be better served by the native glass on the native mounts.

I think you misunderstand me if you think I'm saying that the Sony system is poor. What I'm really saying is that people have good reasons to use DSLRs and they are unlikely to switch en masse to mirrorless (so Philip pj's post is a bit of a pipedream/exaggeration). Far more likely is people buying a second body for video or a travel system.

I really like the A7R II, it's a great improvement on the A7R and even on the A7 II. But I won't be selling my D810 anytime soon unless Nikon releases a new body with an improved sensor. Your own views may vary, but don't assume DSLR owners haven't considered the options or aren't mirrorless users in their own right.
 
Frankly though, for shooting manually, nothing really beats a rangefinder for accuracy.
Frankly, if I lived near you, I would challenge you in a MF speed and accuracy duel. You with your M240 and Summicron 50 f2, me with a A7S and Loxia 50 f2. It could be interesting. :)
What would be more interesting is if both of us swapped cameras and lenses for a week, used them constantly and then compared notes
 
The thing is Nikon owners have an exceptional range of native and third party glass to use without adapters, the best of examples of which outperform each and every native mount FE lens in existence.
The FE 16-35, 35/1.4, 55/1.8 and 90 macro are easily as good or better than any Nikon equivalent. The Batis 25/85 are also very good. Otis and ZF lenses can be adapted so that's a push. Nikon has more native lenses, but virtually everything can be adapted to E-mount.
It isn't just Nikon who makes glass for the F mount though. The FE 16-35 is a very good little lens that outperforms the Nikon 16-35 for resolution, but it is outperformed itself by the Nikon 14-24 and 18-35mm lenses (the latter of which is a budget lens). For that matter, the Tamron 15-30 is comparably priced and gives even better results than the Nikon 14-24. The Sigma Art 35mm in Nikon mount outperforms the Sony/Zeiss 35mm lens and the Sony/Zeiss 55mm lens has better bokeh than the Sigma Art 50mm lens but is otherwise outperformed, particularly for resolution. I will happily give you the 90 macro as being better than the Nikon equivalent. Otus and ZF.2 lenses from Zeiss can be adapted, but why would I introduce the compromise of an adapter* and a body that's less comfortable to hold with heavy glass mounted?

Regardless, this isn't lens top trumps. A lens that's reasonable in cost but lighter and/or smaller might get you a shot that you might miss in other circumstances. This goes for the FE lenses as much as it goes for Nikon F1.8G primes.
The lighter/smaller lens is definitely nice. Plus for my hands the Sony a7RII with 16-35/f4 is already about the biggest/heaviest I'd prefer to go. When lenses get much heavier than 1.5lbs I don't like using them. Tamron 15-30mm is 2.5lbs, and the Tamron 70-200mm/2.8 we have is 3.2lbs and I don't like using it at all.
A-mount glass fills out the lineup and you get full AF and IBIS with LAEA3 on the A7RII. Canon has comparable lenses across the range and most can be adapted to the A7RII with fill OS/AF capabilities. You may not want to include those, but in the real world people actually using the camera will include them as part of the available lenses.

Nikon's range of lenses is severely limited by the mount, pretty much every lens ever made can be adapted to the E-mount. Why limit yourself to Nikon mount glass when there's so many other great lenses available?
Because adapters* reduce optical performance and introduce aberrations. You may not want to hear that if you use adapted glass, but: http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/09/there-is-no-free-lunch-episode-763-lens-adapters

I've shot with adapted lenses on A7 series cameras (Nikon and Contax G) and more extensively on Sony NEX, M43s and Fuji X cameras (Nikon, Leica M, Voigtlander and Contax G). In the end I've come to the conclusion I would be better served by the native glass on the native mounts.
I prefer native mounts as well, especially now that the native FE mount lenses have continuous eye AF. It's a game-changer for us, and yes I know we're amateurs, but these amateur-friendly features are quite frankly awesome. Our keeper rate with in-focus eyes has never been this high.
I think you misunderstand me if you think I'm saying that the Sony system is poor. What I'm really saying is that people have good reasons to use DSLRs and they are unlikely to switch en masse to mirrorless (so Philip pj's post is a bit of a pipedream/exaggeration). Far more likely is people buying a second body for video or a travel system.
Not for us. We bought the a7II as a second body, and a7RII as the primary body. I truly do not like large bulky DSLR bodies, because they don't fit into my hand. My husband likes them better, but even he will admit that the smaller body is easier to take to outings and pack into my purse without requiring a dedicated backpack.

This is such a personal decision because most cameras have good enough image quality for most purposes/tasks nowadays. So the differentiating features for us were 5-axis IBIS, EVF/Live View autofocus, video capability so we don't have to carry a separate camcorder (most DSLR lenses make noise during operation, even SSM lenses, so on-board spur-of-the-moment recording is such a hassle), and the continuous eye AF.

Those "enabling" features, or maybe "for the lazy commonperson" features, are really great in action. Maybe we won't be able to squeeze out that last few tiny ounces of image quality, but hey, we got the shot in between wrangling two boys both under 3 years of age.

At one point during a photoshoot where we set up a tripod, I picked the camera up off the ground including the tripod and handheld the shot, because the babies had moved and angles changed. That's the sort of thing studio photographers and professionals working with posing models don't have to deal with, and that's the sort of thing we do. I don't know if my hands were steady or not -- I'm pretty sure they weren't. The 5-axis IBIS compensated for it, and we got the shots.

--
http://www.lightfinity.net
 
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