Jerky panning and zooming with the AX100- any suggestions?

My Sony FDR AX 100 takes razor sharp videos most of the time- except when I am zooming or panning. It almost looks like a slip-stick motion. When I pan, I am mounted on a tripod with a fluid head so the actual movement of the camera is very smooth. I have noticed this issue with other AX100 cameras when sample video is posted on the internet so I don't think the issue is with my camera.

Are there any settings or techniques that can minimize this issue?

hzmeyer said:

It almost looks like a slip-stick motion.

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Do you mean the kind of motion you see in this YouTube video? That's due to a low frame rate (which means frame rates like 24 or 30 frames per second).

To fix that kind of jerky, staccato appearance you need to do one or more of the following:

• Shoot at a higher frame rate. The AX100 is capable of 60fps video - if you shoot and view your videos at that frame rate it will almost completely eliminate the problem.

• Use a slower shutter speed. For video taken at slow frame rates the recommendation is to use a shutter speed that's half the frame-to-frame interval. For example with 24fps video you'd use a shutter speed of 1/48th of a second (which in practical terms means 1/50th on most cameras). The slower shutter speed will introduce motion blur which helps to hide the problem, but at expense of clarity.

• Avoid shooting scenes that have such rapid motion in them. That means panning more slowly, using a wider angle so that subjects don't move across the frame so quickly, etc, panning with the subject so as to minimize its relative motion in the frame, etc.

For Hollywood productions which are almost always shot at 24fps, professionals use the latter two techniques to cope with the problem.

hzmeyer said:

Unfortunately, my main use for this camera is recording stage plays so I can't stop and restart without loosing dialog. When actors are on opposite sides of the stage, I have to be wide but when they are together, close-ups are required.

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This is the ideal situation for a "B" camera. You put it on a tripod, compose to record the whole stage, and let it record by itself during the whole play while you work the "A" camera to capture key shots. This lets you intercut footage from both cameras to provide more variety and avoid messy zooms and pans.

Almost every camera can record HD video these days, so it shouldn't be too hard to find or borrow a second camera that you can use for this purpose.

Sean

The video that prompted this post was shot at the maximum frame rate of 60p with the file format XAVC S. I did not set the shutter speed but manually adjusted the exposure to maintain a 70% zebra on the actor's faces. With the constantly changing stage lights, I wanted to give all three variables the ability to adjust. Do you feel the jerkiness would improve if I locked the shutter speed?

hzmeyer said:

The video that prompted this post was shot at the maximum frame rate of 60p with the file format XAVC S. I did not set the shutter speed but manually adjusted the exposure to maintain a 70% zebra on the actor's faces. With the constantly changing stage lights, I wanted to give all three variables the ability to adjust. Do you feel the jerkiness would improve if I locked the shutter speed?

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At 60p the shutter speed is a lot less of an issue. Most people perceive 60p motion as being quite smooth even with high shutter speeds, although some people might be more sensitive than others. Of course it should be simple enough for you to shoot some sample footage at various shutter speeds so you can judge for yourself whether it would improve things or not.

Two questions:

• Do you have a sample clip you can post so we can see exactly what the issue you're referring to is?

• Are you watching the original footage or have you put this through an editor? The reason I'm wondering is that the editor may have exported the footage at a slower frame rate, and if that's true then all of the issues I cited above would apply. In fact even with the original footage there could be a possibility that whatever you're using to view the video is only showing you 30 frames per second. For example I believe that YouTube might downconvert 60p to 30p unless you specifically tell it not to.

In addition what is said panning has to done slow and even half as slow of what you (and me) thought slow was ;-)

Have here a link to a Panning speeds chart You will see there is a relation between FOV (field of view) and frames per second.

The video in which I saw the jerkiness was played directly from the SD card.

My panning speed is directed by the movement of the actors. If I pan too slow, the actor will walk out of the frame. I originally did not zoom in so much but got comments that I needed to get in closer. You can't win.

I have uploaded stills but not video. I see the icon but are there instructions anywhere for the upload?

This is what I read about the AX100 and maybe this is what you mean because I and we haven't seen a part of the clip.

link for rolling shutter issue AX100

But I read also in the help.pdf of the AX100:

At a higher gain, the brightness becomes more appropriate in dim scenes, but the noise increases. At a lower gain, the noise decreases, but the shutter speed becomes slower to compensate for the lack of brightness, causing camera shake or subject blur.

So you need to do some tests and check the shutter speed during recording in same conditions. (60fps=1/125 or 30fps= 1/60 and not below these shutter speeds!) dim light: use 30 or 25 fps

Also: You can compensate for camera shake. Set [ SteadyShot] to [Off] when using a tripod (sold separately), then the image becomes natural.

hzmeyer said:

My panning speed is directed by the movement of the actors. If I pan too slow, the actor will walk out of the frame. I originally did not zoom in so much but got comments that I needed to get in closer. You can't win.

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So when you pan with a subject does the issue you're complaining about primarily affect the background or the actors themselves?

hzmeyer said:

I have uploaded stills but not video. I see the icon but are there instructions anywhere for the upload?

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DPReview doesn't host videos. You have to upload the video to a video hosting service such as Vimeo or YouTube and then post a link here to it.

hzmeyer said:

This is what I read about the AX100 and maybe this is what you mean because I and we haven't seen a part of the clip.

link for rolling shutter issue AX100

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"Rolling Shutter" is a different issue from the one I think you're trying to describe. Here's a link to a video that shows what rolling shutter looks like.

hzmeyer said:

At a higher gain, the brightness becomes more appropriate in dim scenes, but the noise increases. At a lower gain, the noise decreases, but the shutter speed becomes slower to compensate for the lack of brightness, causing camera shake or subject blur.

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Yes, if the issue you're talking about is what I think it is, then the subject blur is what you want in order to mask the staccato motion caused by a slow frame rate. I wouldn't expect this to be an issue at 60fps, but you could be more sensitive to it or perhaps there's still some reason why it's actually less than that.

What is your output target? If it is anything less than Ultra 4K (HiDef, DVD...), you have another option. You can record the whole thing pretty much static, without any panning or zooming. Then you get the continuous soundtrack. But for the video, if your editor allows it, you can downsize the window on the clip and move it to track the subject matter you want to focus on. It varies by video editor. Premiere Pro CS6 does it by motion flow, and you can change the window size to, say, HiDef 1920x1080. Then just render out that short clip. Then open the original clip, add a video track and put the short clip on the new track at the appropriate place, hiding the original clip during that time. The last step also depends on your editor, but you can possibly use keyframes and click the "eye" in PPro, for example. Anyway, this gives you a general idea.

hzmeyer said:

My Sony FDR AX 100 takes razor sharp videos most of the time- except when I am zooming or panning.

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That would be a feature of such camera and codec, enhanced by the choices of the camera operator. It's not related to that particular camera alone. You can minimise the effects by your shooting style, and determining your goal; what is it that you'r really wish to accomplish.

As for the razor sharp static scenes, that's an illusion created by in-camera sharpening. What matters more is the end result as a whole.

hzmeyer said:

Are there any settings or techniques that can minimize this issue?

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Settings: Set everything to manual, and electronic IS off. Use a relevant shutter speed to your recording frame rate, your recording target and so on. Unless you're controlling your shutter speed, gain, WB and aperture manually, trying to optimise the footage is pretty futile.

Techniques: Well, don't pan and zoom. Plan your shoots ahead. Move your butt instead, and shoot in sequences. Capture audio separately and change your camera position or angle of view between key action scenes. Record static sequences in 4K and deliver panned&scanned footage in 1080. Only pan with wide angle end of the lens, and do it slowly. Zoom between takes.

Make up your mind what is it that you actually wish to accomplish, what kind of look, and so on.

If your goal is to make it look like a proper TV drama (a stage performance produced for TV), you've got two options; either go on stage, stop the action on stage and move your camera position between the scenes (like they do movies and TV drama), or have two or more cameras (and camera operators) to capture the live performance from multiple angles on or off-stage (like they do live performances). With audio either tapped to the master audio (if the actors are mic'd) or captured from multiple locations by on-camera mics and/or with separate audio gear. You can pick up clues by watching quality stage performances shown in TV, for example.

You are right, it's indeed not that much about your camera (gear), it's more about what we are doing and how we do it. A great looking video is often much more than just following the action with the camera.

To see my issue, I just visited the Video forum and saw what I am experiencing. The post is entitled "My First Ever Video" and it shows up between second 7 and second 15 during a pan. I don't think this is rolling shutter. This a fairly slow pan but, to me, appears jerky.

My apologizes to the poster for using his video as an example of a video issue but he also could benefit if a solution to this problem could be found.

hzmeyer said:

To see my issue, I just visited the Video forum and saw what I am experiencing. The post is entitled "My First Ever Video" and it shows up between second 7 and second 15 during a pan. I don't think this is rolling shutter. This a fairly slow pan but, to me, appears jerky.

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Are you talking about this video? If so, then it's the slow frame rate issue I described upthread. Solutions are a slower shutter speed, slower pan or faster frame rate.

There's also a small chance that you're referring to the fact that the speed of the pan is not consistent - it speeds up in some places and slows down in others. If that's what you're talking about then the solution is a good quality fluid head for your tripod.

Yes, that is the video I was referencing. My video was very similar. I shot at that maximum frame rate of 60p. I shot on a tripod with a fluid head. But I let the camera choose the shutter speed. For the next filming, I will lock in a slower shutter speed. If that works, many thanks.

hzmeyer said:

Yes, that is the video I was referencing. My video was very similar. I shot at that maximum frame rate of 60p. I shot on a tripod with a fluid head. But I let the camera choose the shutter speed. For the next filming, I will lock in a slower shutter speed. If that works, many thanks.

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regarding the settings that you were using, 4 days ago in your first post.

And instead of referring to other people's videos, why not post a short clip showing your actual problem??

You could be doing so much more to make it easier for people to be able to give you advice.

What shutter speed are you planning to use? Are you confident that it will be appropriate?

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Why not post a clip of my video? Simple- I don't know how.

As far as what shutter speed, I will run some tests to see which one works best. I wish there was a way to check the shutter speed on videos I already shot so I could see the ones that gave me the problem.

hzmeyer said:

For the next filming, I will lock in a slower shutter speed. If that works, many thanks.

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Be aware that you may need to use an ND filter in order to achieve a slow shutter speed in bright daylight. The AX100 has a built-in ND filter but I'm not familiar enough with the camera to know whether or not you will need to engage it manually.

hzmeyer said:

My apologizes to the poster for using his video as an example of a video issue but he also could benefit if a solution to this problem could be found.

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The actual solution is simple; Practise, practise, practise.

hzmeyer said:

But I let the camera choose the shutter speed.

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Don't do that. Don't let the camera choose the shutter speed.

hzmeyer said:

I wish there was a way to check the shutter speed on videos I already shot so I could see the ones that gave me the problem.

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Forget about it. Stop fiddling with the titchy bits and concentrate on getting a hang of the basics first.

Like mentioned earlier, set everything to manual, and then control everything manually. For starters, set your shutter speed to a 180-degree angle, and keep it there, for now. In other words, set the shutter speed to 1/125 for 60fps and 1/60 for 30fps.

Adjust iris/aperture manually until you see a picture that looks just about right. Same for gain/ISO and WB, but try to keep it in base ISO as much as possible. Anticipate the environment you'll be shooting with so that you don't have to fiddle with it during each take, or at least keep it to a minimum. Readjust between takes whenever necessary. Use the zebras of the camera to give you a clue about the right exposure. Like mentioned above, you may need a ND filter in bright daylight, but that's just part of the basics.

Then, practise some more. You'll get the hang of it, eventually. Happy shooting!

Hi,

I now own a Sony AX100E and jittery footage is something I have spotted in my panning and I wish to solve it.

This video here shows another users example.


in 4K I am offered only 25p so using the shutter rule seen above that will be 1/50.

Not sure why 30p is talked of here, unless thats what USA models have.

I have carried out pan tests at very slow medium and fast panning on 1/50 1/60 1/100 right up to 1/600 all on Steady Shot Standard and they all look not much different ! repeated it with Steady Shot Active. No difference.

I was to believe that 1/50 would solve it.

Also means that all the shutter speeds offered are redundant if one has just one to use.

I could on my old camcorder use any speed I wished though for airshow use it had to be 1/50 for lovely blurred props., though I could have got away with 1/100.

Prior to this I had a miniDV camcorder and different capturing technology , CCD versus Exmor R CMOS of the ax100E and didnt notice such in those days.

Has progress actually spoilt the basic appearance of videoing ?

DBenz

DBenz01 said:

Hi,

I now own a Sony AX100E and jittery footage is something I have spotted in my panning and I wish to solve it.

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Wow, quite an excavation job, a blast from the past, almost 3 years back.

DBenz01 said:

This video here shows another users example.

in 4K I am offered only 25p so using the shutter rule seen above that will be 1/50.

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Yup.

DBenz01 said:

Not sure why 30p is talked of here, unless thats what USA models have.

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The OP in this thread was/is from 'murrica. So is this clip. Hence the US-centric settings.

DBenz01 said:

I have carried out pan tests at very slow medium and fast panning on 1/50 1/60 1/100 right up to 1/600 all on Steady Shot Standard and they all look not much different ! repeated it with Steady Shot Active. No difference.

I was to believe that 1/50 would solve it.

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It's still a good rule of thumb, but it won't solve all the shortcomings of the camera or fix the antics of the shooter.

I'm not even sure what the different Steady Shot settings are supposed to do, but my guess is that the ideal setting will be "Off." Provided that such a setting is available.

The faster the pan, the worse the jitter and/or blur. The shutter speed is just one factor in that. Another factor is the codec and heavy video compression done by the camera. Although using a shorter shutter speed will enhance the kind of stroboscopic action in the screen, too, making it more straining for the eyes. Digital stabilisers tend to add a layer of warpiness/wobbliness to the image. So does rolling shutter at some point. The final insult will be YouTube compression, which will usually not help, either.

So the other good rule of thumb is to pan slowly especially with cameras like these, if you need to pan in the first place. Let the image processor of the camera have ample time to cope with the ever changing pixels.

DBenz01 said:

Also means that all the shutter speeds offered are redundant if one has just one to use.

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The 180 degree rule doesn't mean you only have one shutter speed. It kind of depends on what you're trying to do, and what kind of look you're after.

Some cameras can record in more than one frame rate, for example. Slower or faster shutter speeds can be used with each frame rate, too, but they do have a significant effect on the motion cadence of the video, and they're typically used to enhance certain visual/emotional impact. For regular videos the so called 180 degree shutter angle (shutter speed) is still the ideal way to go. That's why even some consumer cameras have built-in ND filters for bright sunny conditions.

Also keep in mind that consumer cameras like these are not made with the highest possible video quality in mind. They're optimised more for things like ease of use under all kinds of conditions for less experienced shooters. The idea is to deliver adequate results straight out of the camera straight into the TV screen, which has all the 'image enhancement' features I don't even dare to imagine, which will mask some of the shortcomings of the video. 'Most' users/buyers of these cameras don't even care about things like shutter speeds or even a little bit of jitter.

DBenz01 said:

Prior to this I had a miniDV camcorder and different capturing technology , CCD versus Exmor R CMOS of the ax100E and didnt notice such in those days.

Has progress actually spoilt the basic appearance of videoing ?

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Both CCDs and CMOS's have their pros and cons. 'Progress' is often dictated by cost and profitability, at least in the mainstream. Looks like it'll still take a while before CMOS tech will catch up the pros of the CCD technology, but that's where the industry is going these days.

Nevetheless, the featured video and many other videos like it look like the way they do mostly for other reasons than the sensor type. There's also not much point in trying to fight the camera. We might as well try to work around the quirks instead and trying to get along with what we've got.

Like in cases like this, keeping the good rules of thumbs in mind, and use shooting techniques that will hide rather than highlight the shortcomings of the camera in use, like pan slowly, shoot in more static sequences, use proper support gear, etc.

As yet another rule of thumb states, 'it's not about the gear'

Hi,

my panning is as slow as is sensible without stopping altogether, far slower than most do as if they are spraying something ! I am not prone to camera shake, I was commended on my smooth panning of aircraft and if you can film a spitfire and keep things steady you can film anything. That was on CCD and I get the feeling progress has screwed up the ability to film as well. I cannot film such now without footage looking as if I am a bumbling amateur. Both camcorders cost same amount (£1200 v £1600) both were/are top end of the consumer market. Next step is heavy pro camcorders and loss of transportability as well as loss of £££. bang goes taking it on holiday. van and tripod needed !

The jerkiness is not my panning, it is the camcorder.

Steady shot off makes it impossible to film hand held at all, and I am very good an video shooting. It didnt alter the jitters either.

I read that the AX100 and AX53 are prone to this.

50p is better at reducing it but there is no 50p offered in 4K mode.

I am told dont use 25p by Sony id panning so they are saying dont use 4K when using this 4K camcorder !!!!! Videoing does involve panning.

Basically they have goofed.

I have a fast card 300MB/s so its not that. Bought that as it was suggested it might be the card.

DBenz