Nikon Is now 1 year behind Canon

pquaife · Jul 18, 2003

For quite a few years I have been dissapointed with Nikon (despite owning several thousand dollars of their gear).

They are always slow and the end result of their slowness is not better than the competition.

Major beefs in recent years:

Rotating filter ring - Canon's and others lenses fixed this issue years before Nikon.
Image Stabilization - same situation Canon is years ahead.

Now we hear Nikon will produce it's own CMOS sensor - and only 4 MP!!!!
Isn't that the Canon 1d all over again?

This is the most STUPID thing I have heard in a long time. They cannot achieve the image quality of the Sigma/Foveon this way. Sure you say - this is for photo journalists who don't need image quality, just speed - big mistake - they need to achieve both.

I can only hope that Nikon finally fixes the masked viewfinder nonsense on their lower level SLRs and puts a higher MP sensor in them.

Otherwise I will be selling my 9 Nikkors etc.

--
Phil

daytontp · Jul 18, 2003

Phil said:
Now we hear Nikon will produce it's own CMOS sensor - and only 4
MP!!!!
Isn't that the Canon 1d all over again?

Have you noticed the EOS 1D uses a CCD sensor, not a CMOS sensor. And, CMOS sensors have less noise than CCD sensors do.

The new Nikon sensor is said to have less noise at higher ISO speeds than other CMOS sensor and is said to have a 14 Stop Dynamic Range. Which should put it at par with Color Negative Film.

And, the newer AF system is said to be faster than the AF system the EOS-1 cameras use. Plus, the WiFi wireless feature, that Canon does not have yet.

You should wait until you use a product before you bash it.

--

'More people shoot Nikon than all other companies combined'. quote from 2003 Nikon Presentation. http://www.pbase.com/daytontp/

littlebabylon · Jul 18, 2003

I m the one who also owning several thousand dollars of their gear for 10 years time, as the history shown, Nikon is all the time slower than Canon's technology. However, my personal opinion is that Nikon has get used to it and seems not intented to over turn such situation. besides, Nikon and Canon seems capturing the same segment in the market, but actually there is a little bit different on the segmentation. and in the view point of marketing, Nikon plays very smart on the marketing strategies for years in which keeping a high level of brand loyalty.

However, especially in digital technology, it just like a international weapon race, you stop, you will lost the market share then. Hope Nikon will do better in the coming future, as technology won't wait.

rgds
kevin

f dinaro · Jul 18, 2003

bashing Nikon on this forum will allways get you in trouble.The bottom line is if you had a $20,000 photo shoot in the Mohave desert would you take a d1x or a d1...........I rest my case...........frank d

Phil said:
For quite a few years I have been dissapointed with Nikon (despite
owning several thousand dollars of their gear).

They are always slow and the end result of their slowness is not
better than the competition.

Major beefs in recent years:
Rotating filter ring - Canon's and others lenses fixed this issue
years before Nikon.
Image Stabilization - same situation Canon is years ahead.

Now we hear Nikon will produce it's own CMOS sensor - and only 4
MP!!!!
Isn't that the Canon 1d all over again?

This is the most STUPID thing I have heard in a long time. They
cannot achieve the image quality of the Sigma/Foveon this way. Sure
you say - this is for photo journalists who don't need image
quality, just speed - big mistake - they need to achieve both.

I can only hope that Nikon finally fixes the masked viewfinder
nonsense on their lower level SLRs and puts a higher MP sensor in
them.

Otherwise I will be selling my 9 Nikkors etc.

--
Phil

--
frank d
just have fun with it ! http://www.pbase.com/frangee/photos_by_frangee

Thomas Sapiano · Jul 18, 2003

daytontp said:
Have you noticed the EOS 1D uses a CCD sensor, not a CMOS sensor.
And, CMOS sensors have less noise than CCD sensors do.

a) The new Nikon sensor isn't CMOS, it is similar but not quite the same. This new technology has a higher fill-rate so its noise profile should be quite nice compared to current CMOS imagers.

b) CMOS inherently has more noise than CCD sensors, however it can be better configured with noise reduction hardware/software. Canon's CMOS offerings work well because they have developed especially good noise reduction hardware and software - that isn't going to directly translate to all CMOS implementations.

c) Nikon, however, has prooven to be quite good at noise reduction. The sensor in the EOS 1D is supposedly an upsized version of the one in the D1H however the per pixel quality of the D1H seems to be somewhat better. Same hardware, but different software can make a huge difference.

daytontp said:
The new Nikon sensor is said to have less noise at higher ISO
speeds than other CMOS sensor and is said to have a 14 Stop Dynamic
Range. Which should put it at par with Color Negative Film.

That's what the rumors are saying and I'm hoping that it's true

Frankly, I'm partially glad that they are sticking with a lower pixel count - it hopefully shows that they will be focusing on quality versus quantity of pixels. If the rumors are true and this puppy can support clean 6400ISO shots, it should be an awesome sports cameras for my purposes - if it only had a larger sensor it'd be perfect

daytontp said:
And, the newer AF system is said to be faster than the AF system
the EOS-1 cameras use. Plus, the WiFi wireless feature, that Canon
does not have yet.

Drooling already

Negative287 · Jul 18, 2003

Thanks for stopping by! Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

Also, Please read the article, it said the technology was like CMOS but more simple and would have less noise... It also claimed the sensor was designed for speed. So, it'll have less noise, better image quality and be almost as fast as the 1D and that's why they're taking that route and they'll probably have something like an 11 MP APS sized sensor and more glass available when the D2x is announced!

Phil said:
For quite a few years I have been dissapointed with Nikon (despite
owning several thousand dollars of their gear).

They are always slow and the end result of their slowness is not
better than the competition.

Major beefs in recent years:
Rotating filter ring - Canon's and others lenses fixed this issue
years before Nikon.
Image Stabilization - same situation Canon is years ahead.

Now we hear Nikon will produce it's own CMOS sensor - and only 4
MP!!!!
Isn't that the Canon 1d all over again?

This is the most STUPID thing I have heard in a long time. They
cannot achieve the image quality of the Sigma/Foveon this way. Sure
you say - this is for photo journalists who don't need image
quality, just speed - big mistake - they need to achieve both.

I can only hope that Nikon finally fixes the masked viewfinder
nonsense on their lower level SLRs and puts a higher MP sensor in
them.

Otherwise I will be selling my 9 Nikkors etc.

--
Phil

Peter Phan · Jul 18, 2003

They may be behind, but I think we can all be thankful that they're at least still in the game. A lot of it may seem like "deja vu all over again" when you compare it to what Canon was introducing 2 years ago (4mp, 8fps, wireless flash, image stabilization, multiple point wide area focus array) but Canon users need Nikon to be competitive just as much as Nikon users need Nikon to be competitive. Now Canon probably feels a little more pressure to finally bring out their update to the 1D. And the beat goes on.

Phil said:
For quite a few years I have been dissapointed with Nikon (despite
owning several thousand dollars of their gear).

They are always slow and the end result of their slowness is not
better than the competition.

Major beefs in recent years:
Rotating filter ring - Canon's and others lenses fixed this issue
years before Nikon.
Image Stabilization - same situation Canon is years ahead.

Now we hear Nikon will produce it's own CMOS sensor - and only 4
MP!!!!
Isn't that the Canon 1d all over again?

This is the most STUPID thing I have heard in a long time. They
cannot achieve the image quality of the Sigma/Foveon this way. Sure
you say - this is for photo journalists who don't need image
quality, just speed - big mistake - they need to achieve both.

I can only hope that Nikon finally fixes the masked viewfinder
nonsense on their lower level SLRs and puts a higher MP sensor in
them.

Otherwise I will be selling my 9 Nikkors etc.

--
Phil

win39 · Jul 18, 2003

On the other hand you have to respect a company that understands that photography is an art and is not in the business of obsoleting the tools that its customers have already bought. If it takes a little longer to do that, great. Plus Nikon can build on the mistakes of others that way. So a first generation technology from a company that waits is frequently second or third generation because the initial work has been done by others. It may not be cutting edge at that point, but it has been proven to be useful and it works.

As for Foveon, I have not seen any examples that show its vast superiority. It is a nice idea, but it is the application that matters. Remember that both those VWs that used to turn over at the drop of a hat and Mercedes racing cars had swing axles. It is all in the execution.

Since Foveon has licensed Texas Instruments to produce the chips I wonder who is going to use them besides Sigma? The new point and shoot chip?

rick decker · Jul 18, 2003

Yes but Canon is light years behind FOVEON!! You will see in the next few months.

Phil said:
For quite a few years I have been dissapointed with Nikon (despite
owning several thousand dollars of their gear).

They are always slow and the end result of their slowness is not
better than the competition.

Major beefs in recent years:
Rotating filter ring - Canon's and others lenses fixed this issue
years before Nikon.
Image Stabilization - same situation Canon is years ahead.

Now we hear Nikon will produce it's own CMOS sensor - and only 4
MP!!!!
Isn't that the Canon 1d all over again?

This is the most STUPID thing I have heard in a long time. They
cannot achieve the image quality of the Sigma/Foveon this way. Sure
you say - this is for photo journalists who don't need image
quality, just speed - big mistake - they need to achieve both.

I can only hope that Nikon finally fixes the masked viewfinder
nonsense on their lower level SLRs and puts a higher MP sensor in
them.

Otherwise I will be selling my 9 Nikkors etc.

--
Phil

--

.......Feel The Power.........Sigma.....SD9..........

http://www.lightreflection.com
http://www.silveroaksranch.com
http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home

pquaife · Jul 18, 2003

Pete Perry said:
Thanks for stopping by! Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

That kind of intollerant, stupid remark. tells me a lot about you. This is not private club and you cergtainly don't control it. Further, I certainly don't have to ask your permission to post here. Who do you think you are?

Member said:
Also, Please read the article, it said the technology was like CMOS
but more simple and would have less noise... It also claimed the
sensor was designed for speed.

So, it'll have less noise, better

Member said:
image quality and be almost as fast as the 1D and that's why
they're taking that route and they'll probably have something like
an 11 MP APS sized sensor and more glass available when the D2x is
announced!

Phil said:

For quite a few years I have been dissapointed with Nikon (despite
owning several thousand dollars of their gear).

They are always slow and the end result of their slowness is not
better than the competition.

Major beefs in recent years:
Rotating filter ring - Canon's and others lenses fixed this issue
years before Nikon.
Image Stabilization - same situation Canon is years ahead.

Now we hear Nikon will produce it's own CMOS sensor - and only 4
MP!!!!
Isn't that the Canon 1d all over again?

This is the most STUPID thing I have heard in a long time. They
cannot achieve the image quality of the Sigma/Foveon this way. Sure
you say - this is for photo journalists who don't need image
quality, just speed - big mistake - they need to achieve both.

I can only hope that Nikon finally fixes the masked viewfinder
nonsense on their lower level SLRs and puts a higher MP sensor in
them.

Otherwise I will be selling my 9 Nikkors etc.

--
Phil

Click to expand...

--
Phil

Peter Phan · Jul 18, 2003

win39 said:
On the other hand you have to respect a company that understands
that photography is an art and is not in the business of obsoleting
the tools that its customers have already bought.

Would that include lenses? Canon obsoleted the FD line in one fell swoop about 16 years ago, but every lens/body combination since then has been completely 100% compatible. Nikon lenses have much more "diversity" of compatibility between their bodies, so it might be a bit specious of you to say that Nikon isn't in the "business of obsoleting". The very essence of the DX philosophy dictates non-compatibility (or at best, incomplete compatibility) with full frame film and digital bodies. And in a few years time, they may even introduce a full frame digital body, with obvious ramifications to those with a large collection of DX lenses. They do what they have to do, just like any other company.

jeff-c · Jul 18, 2003

Peter Phan said:
The very essence of the DX philosophy dictates
non-compatibility (or at best, incomplete compatibility) with full
frame film and digital bodies. And in a few years time, they may
even introduce a full frame digital body, with obvious
ramifications to those with a large collection of DX lenses. They
do what they have to do, just like any other company.

I can't wait for the day when Canon finally releases their DX lens lineup. Many Canon 10D/D60/D30/300D users will be happy when that happens except you.

Jason B · Jul 18, 2003

I must agree with Rick, foveon blows away bayer any day. No moire, greater details and contrast... 3mp foveon is better than 6mp bayer when upsampled to the same size. I only hope that Nikon or even canon can find ways to produce a similar technology without having to rely on foveon to license it. I think I'll email Nikon and tell them what I think, it's worth a shot & with a lot of pressure, maybe they will see this as a way to REALLY hurt canon's sales! If they made a foveon D200 I would buy multiple cameras- and I am normally cheap!

competition=power to the people

rick decker said:
Yes but Canon is light years behind FOVEON!! You will see in the
next few months.

DavidMillier · Jul 18, 2003

I think you'd better stick with "no more COLOUR moire". There's plenty of evidence of swirly monochrome moire interference patterns on fabrics from the X3 chip. It's the consequence of doing away with the blurring filter...

Jason B said:
competition=power to the people

rick decker said:

Yes but Canon is light years behind FOVEON!! You will see in the
next few months.

Click to expand...

Joe Jensen · Jul 18, 2003

daytontp said:
Phil said:

Now we hear Nikon will produce it's own CMOS sensor - and only 4
MP!!!!
Isn't that the Canon 1d all over again?

Click to expand...

Have you noticed the EOS 1D uses a CCD sensor, not a CMOS sensor.
And, CMOS sensors have less noise than CCD sensors do.

The new Nikon sensor is said to have less noise at higher ISO
speeds than other CMOS sensor and is said to have a 14 Stop Dynamic
Range. Which should put it at par with Color Negative Film.

And, the newer AF system is said to be faster than the AF system
the EOS-1 cameras use. Plus, the WiFi wireless feature, that Canon
does not have yet.

You should wait until you use a product before you bash it.

--
'More people shoot Nikon than all other companies combined'. quote
from 2003 Nikon Presentation. http://www.pbase.com/daytontp/

tuanokc · Jul 18, 2003

Phil said:
For quite a few years I have been dissapointed with Nikon (despite
owning several thousand dollars of their gear).

They are always slow and the end result of their slowness is not
better than the competition.

Major beefs in recent years:
Rotating filter ring - Canon's and others lenses fixed this issue
years before Nikon.
Image Stabilization - same situation Canon is years ahead.

Now we hear Nikon will produce it's own CMOS sensor - and only 4
MP!!!!
Isn't that the Canon 1d all over again?

This is the most STUPID thing I have heard in a long time. They
cannot achieve the image quality of the Sigma/Foveon this way. Sure
you say - this is for photo journalists who don't need image
quality, just speed - big mistake - they need to achieve both.

I can only hope that Nikon finally fixes the masked viewfinder
nonsense on their lower level SLRs and puts a higher MP sensor in
them.

Otherwise I will be selling my 9 Nikkors etc.

--
Phil

Just sligthly or few steps behind on the technology side, for the record on IS, Nikon is about 3 generations behind Canon.

Canon and Nikon user. Film/Digital

glowluzid · Jul 18, 2003

rick decker said:
Yes but Canon is light years behind FOVEON!! You will see in the
next few months.

Foveon isn't competing directly with nikon or canon. They're making FPA CCDs for consumer cameras. And Nikon/canon could use foveon sensors in their bodies.

Furthermore, Foveon may be ahead in FPA design when it comes to 3 mpix resolution, but color, ISO and frame speed are still issues for many of us, and foveon is behind in those areas.

peacefoto · Jul 18, 2003

you call the 1.3, 1.6 and 1.0 cropping factor 'choices' for consumers but can't see nikon offered all the choices of different lenses for different needs? now i do hope canon folks are smarter than you ...

Peter Phan said:
Would that include lenses? Canon obsoleted the FD line in one fell
swoop about 16 years ago, but every lens/body combination since
then has been completely 100% compatible. Nikon lenses have much
more "diversity" of compatibility between their bodies, so it might
be a bit specious of you to say that Nikon isn't in the "business
of obsoleting". The very essence of the DX philosophy dictates
non-compatibility (or at best, incomplete compatibility) with full
frame film and digital bodies. And in a few years time, they may
even introduce a full frame digital body, with obvious
ramifications to those with a large collection of DX lenses. They
do what they have to do, just like any other company.

glowluzid · Jul 18, 2003

win39 said:
On the other hand you have to respect a company that understands
that photography is an art and is not in the business of obsoleting
the tools that its customers have already bought....It may not be
cutting edge at that point, but it has been proven to be useful and
it works.

Translation: "I can't afford to upgrade as fast as canon is putting out new technology, so I'm sticking with nikon."

Folks, new technology does not obsolete the utility of older technology for users. Damaging your gear is what obsoletes them.

Peter Phan · Jul 18, 2003

Jeff-C said:
I can't wait for the day when Canon finally releases their DX lens
lineup. Many Canon 10D/D60/D30/300D users will be happy when that
happens except you.

Me, too. With the user base as it is, there certainly would be a market for it. I'd love it if the 3rd party manufacturers got into it, too. Hopefully, it would have minimum uncompromised coverage for up to 1.3x-size sensors. But I anticipate such lenses would be "fill the niche" lenses rather than part of an "APS-only, nothing else" philosophy.

Nikon Is now 1 year behind Canon

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