So...is the A7RII getting lossless RAW, or what?

The A7rii also records shots taken with 'c-af' and silent shutter at 12 bits while it records 's-af' at 14 bits. Does this make much difference?
I don't know what c-af and s-af stands for, but here is a blurb from the link you posted later:
  • RAW images recorded with this camera have a resolution of 14 bits per pixel. However, resolution is limited to 12 bits in the following shooting modes:
    • [Long Exposure NR]
    • [BULB]
    • Continuous shooting (including continuous shooting in [Superior Auto] mode.)
    • [Silent Shooting]
These circumstances represent a substantial portion of many folks' shooting needs especially those folks who might benefit from 14 bits. Other than Continuous shooting, which may have some form of logic associated to the reason for using 12 bits, but I do not see a similar logic for the other 3.
 
thank you but I'm not much worried by the moire, I can take it away in capture one, my biggest problem are the compression artefacts inside text, looks like a medium quality jpeg, not a raw.

Also on the left where is moire there is a lot of compression
You are not seeing compression artefacts.
 
thank you but I'm not much worried by the moire, I can take it away in capture one, my biggest problem are the compression artefacts inside text, looks like a medium quality jpeg, not a raw.

Also on the left where is moire there is a lot of compression
You are not seeing compression artefacts.
So what am I seeing? text is not clean, I used iso 200 and studio flashes, it should be as clean as it gets, the same setup and a nikon doesn't have the same effect.
the pattern of "dirt" inside text is very similar to a jpeg artifact, and it is probably the only difference from nikon to sony (apart moire but as I said I can fix that).
 
Why are you not worried about moiré? I find it horrendous in this photo, making the shot almost unusable. The texture inside the lettering (possibly from raw compression, but who really knows) is nothing in comparison.
 
So here is where I am a bit confused. I certainly know a D810 user who says he gets more leeway to push files with his D810 than he does with his A7r. Is that because the Sony raw files are 'lossy' or because they are not recording 'true 14 bit' in the first place.
He is probably going into 12-bit mode inadvertently on the Sony (it's easy to do if you don't know how to avoid it).

Or it might be the difference between ISO 64 and ISO 100 in shadow noise.
 
Last edited:
Ever think that maybe... just possibly... the printing is actually like that and the other camera is not showing it ? ? ?
 
The A7rii also records shots taken with 'c-af' and silent shutter at 12 bits while it records 's-af' at 14 bits. Does this make much difference?
How do you know this? The a7s records continuous shutter shots and silent shutter shots at 12-bits, but never records data that fully populates a 14-bit histogram.

Jim
 
Show us a few of the photos you've taken that require lossless raw please.
I just switched to sony from nikon and I'm very happy but the first pictures I took with A7II were bags of coffee in studio (flash + 90mm macro) and I got something very surprising, kind of jpeg compression artifacts around text and moire.
I shoot the same bags a week before with a nikon d610 and there were no problems, so I think in part the problem is raw compression.

(the following screen capture are taken in PNG so what you see is what I get from Lr, maybe watch the original file and not the preview)
Your problem there is that this is a SCREEN CAPTURE, not the original output RAW conversion. What you're seeing here is that 1. the capture app may be compressing or otherwise being altered (pixel level clarity is very low), 2. the image could have any unknown amount of adjustments to create that lighter halo, which is almost always a sign of sharpening.

Since you have no original image to show, no solid conclusions can really be derived. It's a poor looking screen capture of an image that could be anything, with any number of factors affecting it.
 
Nope, .arw is all 11 bit plus 7 delta bit in all A7 series and the Nex series including Alpha series from a33 to a99. You will suffer some quality in high contrast image with some of fringing/artifact in some of hard edge or so. Like star trail it would reveal more so. And highlight detail is much less than Nikon with pure 14 bit image that is much easier to rescue highlight blownout than in current Sony cameras.
This is the first such claim about blown highlight recovery (which is a contradicting term anyway)
that's putting it mildly, lol... "rescue highlight blownout" is right up there with "government intelligence" :D
 
ad I said, moiré can be taken away very very easily in Capture One, I haven't removed in this picture to keep it as clean as possible to post it here.

For raw compression there is no fix and for a camera that wants to compete with dslr is a disappointment, files are not as clean as a dslr, it is not just highlights or shadow clipping, it's also fine detail
 
Show us a few of the photos you've taken that require lossless raw please.
I just switched to sony from nikon and I'm very happy but the first pictures I took with A7II were bags of coffee in studio (flash + 90mm macro) and I got something very surprising, kind of jpeg compression artifacts around text and moire.
I shoot the same bags a week before with a nikon d610 and there were no problems, so I think in part the problem is raw compression.

(the following screen capture are taken in PNG so what you see is what I get from Lr, maybe watch the original file and not the preview)
Your problem there is that this is a SCREEN CAPTURE, not the original output RAW conversion. What you're seeing here is that 1. the capture app may be compressing or otherwise being altered (pixel level clarity is very low), 2. the image could have any unknown amount of adjustments to create that lighter halo, which is almost always a sign of sharpening.

Since you have no original image to show, no solid conclusions can really be derived. It's a poor looking screen capture of an image that could be anything, with any number of factors affecting it.
the raw is unedited exactly like the one I compare to (nikon D610).
The screen capture app is the stock Mac OS X, it saves in PNG so no compression and the file is exactly what I see in Lr.

The problem here is very simple to my eyes, raw compression affects fine details in raw, not a major problem but a step back from my previous camera.

Hope Sony will give lossless raw to version 2 A7
 
everyone understands what is meant by those words :)
Nevertheless, best to just say 'highlight recovery'. If highlights are 'blown', you can't recover anything. Null data. Nikons don't have magical blown highlight recovery features.

No evidence to show 'highlight detail is much less than Nikon', either. I make no claims myself, as it's possible the D750 does indeed have a higher clipping ceiling, but comments implying 'much less' highlight detail for the A7II lack substantiation without test data.
 
Last edited:
ad I said, moiré can be taken away very very easily in Capture One, I haven't removed in this picture to keep it as clean as possible to post it here.

For raw compression there is no fix and for a camera that wants to compete with dslr is a disappointment, files are not as clean as a dslr, it is not just highlights or shadow clipping, it's also fine detail
We now see not just moiré but an agenda appearing, despite the fact that your image does not display cRAW artifacts at all, nor highlight and shadow clipping.

The fine detail is lacking due to any number of issues, not the least of which probably have to do with it being a picture of a printed product, screen capture software processing of your image producing additional sharpening highlights and softening of detail.

You know what they say about blaming the tool, right? I'll give you this, you're the first person I've seen to criticize A7 IQ by taking a picture of the picture.
 
Last edited:
Ever think that maybe... just possibly... the printing is actually like that and the other camera is not showing it ? ? ?
That was my first idea ;-) so I double checked the print but no text color is flat.

 
ad I said, moiré can be taken away very very easily in Capture One, I haven't removed in this picture to keep it as clean as possible to post it here.

For raw compression there is no fix and for a camera that wants to compete with dslr is a disappointment, files are not as clean as a dslr, it is not just highlights or shadow clipping, it's also fine detail
We now see not just moiré but an agenda appearing, despite the fact that your image does not display cRAW artifacts at all, nor highlight and shadow clipping.

The fine detail is lacking due to any number of issues, not the least of which probably have to do with it being a picture of a printed product, screen capture software processing of your image producing additional sharpening highlights and softening of detail.

You know what they say about blaming the tool, right? I'll give you this, you're the first person I've seen to criticize A7 IQ by taking a picture of the picture.
I have noticed the problem because I shoot the same objects with 2 different cameras, everything else is the same, same studio, same lights, same software, same me...
And shooting products that are printed is not that uncommon so if I don't get the same quality as my older camera I'm disappointed
 
Show us a few of the photos you've taken that require lossless raw please.
I just switched to sony from nikon and I'm very happy but the first pictures I took with A7II were bags of coffee in studio (flash + 90mm macro) and I got something very surprising, kind of jpeg compression artifacts around text and moire.
I shoot the same bags a week before with a nikon d610 and there were no problems, so I think in part the problem is raw compression.

(the following screen capture are taken in PNG so what you see is what I get from Lr, maybe watch the original file and not the preview)
Your problem there is that this is a SCREEN CAPTURE, not the original output RAW conversion. What you're seeing here is that 1. the capture app may be compressing or otherwise being altered (pixel level clarity is very low), 2. the image could have any unknown amount of adjustments to create that lighter halo, which is almost always a sign of sharpening.

Since you have no original image to show, no solid conclusions can really be derived. It's a poor looking screen capture of an image that could be anything, with any number of factors affecting it.
the raw is unedited exactly like the one I compare to (nikon D610).
So let's see the RAW rather than a picture of a picture.

Seems odd you can't export the RAW as TIFF or PNG and crop that to prove your point. Either way, the halo you see isn't cRAW.
The screen capture app is the stock Mac OS X, it saves in PNG so no compression and the file is exactly what I see in Lr.
Assuming your screen capture is 100% exactly the same as the RAW in LR - it doesn't mean there isn't any processing of the image going on, that you have some kind of scaling of your desktop happening or scaling of the image either in LR or at some other point.

We don't even know if you might not be showing us a thumbnail JPEG. That's really what it looks like to my eyes - the artifact halo is quite typical looking for that.
The problem here is very simple to my eyes, raw compression affects fine details in raw, not a major problem but a step back from my previous camera.
And again, as people keep telling you, you're operating from the false assumption that the image you posted exhibits lossy compression cRAW artifacts, which it does not. It's nothing like cRAW compression.

What you see there is a halo effect indicative of scaling, sharpening or other image adjustment either in the screen capture app or your Mac - desktop UI shell, who knows? Either way, it's not the A7 compression that's causing the problem, here.
Hope Sony will give lossless raw to version 2 A7
The A7II has the same ARW compression as Sony has been using since the SLT and DSLR days. All signs point to the A7RII having the same.

Edit: Thinking more about it, you did say it was a 3x zoom in LR. Obviously that's going to make the thing look soft, and if you have default sharpening applied, there's your halo effect. The halo could even be scaling or other processing from your video card. That's why we use RAW conversions rather than spitting out a PNG screen cap.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: osv
ad I said, moiré can be taken away very very easily in Capture One, I haven't removed in this picture to keep it as clean as possible to post it here.

For raw compression there is no fix and for a camera that wants to compete with dslr is a disappointment, files are not as clean as a dslr, it is not just highlights or shadow clipping, it's also fine detail
We now see not just moiré but an agenda appearing, despite the fact that your image does not display cRAW artifacts at all, nor highlight and shadow clipping.

The fine detail is lacking due to any number of issues, not the least of which probably have to do with it being a picture of a printed product, screen capture software processing of your image producing additional sharpening highlights and softening of detail.

You know what they say about blaming the tool, right? I'll give you this, you're the first person I've seen to criticize A7 IQ by taking a picture of the picture.
I have noticed the problem because I shoot the same objects with 2 different cameras, everything else is the same, same studio, same lights, same software, same me...
And shooting products that are printed is not that uncommon so if I don't get the same quality as my older camera I'm disappointed
So let's see the RAW exports with both to compare... Or do a Mac screen capture of the D610 image at the same zoom (which also might be affecting the halo around your letters).

You do already seem to have a predisposition in this discussion, like you're here to prove your negative rather than inquire.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top