Canon 5Ds(r) 1.6x and 1.3 x farce?

I guess I was expecting the 1.6x and 1.3x crop option in camera were more sensor aware. What I mean by that, I was expecting that when I chose either of these crop options, I would get 'more reach'..at least that is how it was described by several of the professional 'reviewers'. I was hoping/expecting the entire sensor or portion (1.6, 1.3) thereof would be isolated (and only that portion used for the image) as if it were an APS-C sensor..instead the image is simply 'cropped' for you down to that size..but NOT really. When you view the image in Lightroom and bring up the crop tool, the full image is actually still there, and you can 'undo' the crop. Not sure how that is a benefit (perhaps it is to some people)...I can crop my own images..don't really need a camera setting to do that for me. I guess my thinking was wishful?

<shrugs>
Ok, that's what I thought too... So if I select 1.3 the images in the viewfinder comes closer.

I was hoping that the 5D MKIV will have this exact feature and 10fps so I can use it for sports..
The viewfinder is optical - you cannot get the image in the viewfinder "zooming" to 1.3x or 1.6x.

If you are expecting that in the 5D IV you are going to be sorely disappointed.

I guess it could be done with an electronic view finder, but you aren't going to see that in the 5D IV, either.

Maybe in Live View?
 
I guess I was expecting the 1.6x and 1.3x crop option in camera were more sensor aware. What I mean by that, I was expecting that when I chose either of these crop options, I would get 'more reach'..at least that is how it was described by several of the professional 'reviewers'. I was hoping/expecting the entire sensor or portion (1.6, 1.3) thereof would be isolated (and only that portion used for the image) as if it were an APS-C sensor..instead the image is simply 'cropped' for you down to that size..but NOT really. When you view the image in Lightroom and bring up the crop tool, the full image is actually still there, and you can 'undo' the crop. Not sure how that is a benefit (perhaps it is to some people)...I can crop my own images..don't really need a camera setting to do that for me. I guess my thinking was wishful?

<shrugs>
Ok, that's what I thought too... So if I select 1.3 the images in the viewfinder comes closer.

I was hoping that the 5D MKIV will have this exact feature and 10fps so I can use it for sports..
The viewfinder is optical - you cannot get the image in the viewfinder "zooming" to 1.3x or 1.6x.

If you are expecting that in the 5D IV you are going to be sorely disappointed.

I guess it could be done with an electronic view finder, but you aren't going to see that in the 5D IV, either.

Maybe in Live View?
Theoretically you could do it if you moved all the exposure information to the LCD overlay (rather than along the outside edges) and then put a zooming viewfinder on the camera that could alter it's magnification of the image reflected off the prism. Would have a couple drawbacks though

A: More crap overlayed over the image you're composing with rather than along the outside edge

B: More complicated and thus larger viewfinder housing to accommodate the zoom mechanism
 
I guess I was expecting the 1.6x and 1.3x crop option in camera were more sensor aware. What I mean by that, I was expecting that when I chose either of these crop options, I would get 'more reach'..at least that is how it was described by several of the professional 'reviewers'. I was hoping/expecting the entire sensor or portion (1.6, 1.3) thereof would be isolated (and only that portion used for the image) as if it were an APS-C sensor..instead the image is simply 'cropped' for you down to that size..but NOT really. When you view the image in Lightroom and bring up the crop tool, the full image is actually still there, and you can 'undo' the crop. Not sure how that is a benefit (perhaps it is to some people)...I can crop my own images..don't really need a camera setting to do that for me. I guess my thinking was wishful?

<shrugs>
What you get with the "crop" modes is that the camera "crops" the image when producing the JPEG. No more, no less.

When in "crop" mode, the RAW file contains data from the entire sensor, and the process that creates the JPEG performs the crop. If you shoot RAW, and process in Lightroom, then Lightroom is doing the cropping, and like in-camera white balance, you can change it in post processing.

While it is theoretically possible to design a sensor where data is read only from the "cropped" area, the 5Ds sensor does not do this. The advantage of only reading part of the data is that it may reduce the time it takes to read the data from the sensor. If this was the bottleneck in camera speed, a reduction in data would allow faster operation (more FPS, deeper buffer).

There may be other bottlenecks in the camera which would prevent faster operation, even if you reduce the amount of data being read from the sensor.

.

Even if these issues were solved, the 5Ds would not be able to use EF-S lenses in crop mode. EF-S lenses are allowed to extend into the camera body as crop bodies have smaller mirror boxes. The 5Ds has a full size mirror. Mount an EF-S lens on a a 5Ds, and the mirror might hit the back of the lens.

.

The 5Ds is not a general purpose camera. It is a specialty camera. It is ideally suited for high resolution studio shooting. It has additional functionality (in-camera crop, video, etc.), but if those are your primary need, you may be better off with a different camera.
Canon made a reasonable engineering choice, it seems to me. Lightroom recognizes the crop in the raw file, so the photo shows up already cropped in Lightroom, but the data is not lost if you screw up framing and want some of the original file. The crop is completed in-camera with jpegs. Seems to me that is the most flexible arrangement, and is consistent with many other features that only apply to jpegs. Having just spent an afternoon shooting hummingbird moths, which do not sit still for anything, I appreciate being able to go back and reframe. And yes, the 1.3 and 1.6X framing is an artificial construct if you're shooting raw, but there must be lots of folks whose workflow requirements demand that they output jpegs, or else there wouldn't be all of the framing tools, highlight recovery tools, in-camera processing tools that were developed to enhance jpeg output.

I'm just shooting with mine. I really like it and it's growing on me every day. It's a super camera

-Greg
 
Canon made a reasonable engineering choice, it seems to me.
There is nothing "engineering" about that. It is purely marketing gimmick with no purpose rather than to mark the "Camera can shoot in APS-C mode" checkbox.

I've been using Canon for many years, at times considered changing to Nikon but decided to stay away after counting all pros and cons. To me this is the worst solution ever that came from Canon.

The only explanation I would accept is that the developers use it as a temporary placeholder that will be implemented properly in some of the firmware upgrades.
 
The viewfinder is optical - you cannot get the image in the viewfinder "zooming" to 1.3x or 1.6x.
Sure you can. Putting in an optical lens that magnifies to 1.0, 1.3 and 1.6 is trivial.
 
Canon made a reasonable engineering choice, it seems to me.
There is nothing "engineering" about that. It is purely marketing gimmick with no purpose rather than to mark the "Camera can shoot in APS-C mode" checkbox.

I've been using Canon for many years, at times considered changing to Nikon but decided to stay away after counting all pros and cons. To me this is the worst solution ever that came from Canon.

The only explanation I would accept is that the developers use it as a temporary placeholder that will be implemented properly in some of the firmware upgrades.
There are lots of photographers, with many different needs. A feature that is critical to one photographer may be useless to another.

The crop shooting on the 5Ds is no more a marketing gimmick then highlight tone priority, auto lighting optimizer, picture styles, JPEG resolution, JPEG quality, or even auto white balance. These are all settings that only apply to the creation of the JPEG from the RAW data.

For those that shoot JPEG, these are productive and helpful options.

You can make a reasonable argument that these settings are irrelevant when shooting RAW. But this is not always the case.

Some people shoot RAW+JPEG. If they get things right in the camera, they use the JPEG. If not, they process the RAW.

Even those that only shoot RAW can benefit from these options. It can be helpful to preselect these settings in the camera, with the option to override in post processing.
 
There is nothing "engineering" about that. It is purely marketing gimmick with no purpose rather than to mark the "Camera can shoot in APS-C mode" checkbox.

I've been using Canon for many years, at times considered changing to Nikon but decided to stay away after counting all pros and cons. To me this is the worst solution ever that came from Canon.

The only explanation I would accept is that the developers use it as a temporary placeholder that will be implemented properly in some of the firmware upgrades.
I'll respectfully disagree with you. Obviously you can do whatever you want with the Raw file and you can shoot at whatever imaginary crop factor you want. The crop factors are not carved in stone unless you output jpeg, just like other image processing functions within the camera. Canon chose the most conservative path, and that is an engineering choice in software / firmware. Seems to me that people bitching about this would rather have the data outside of the crop box thrown away, thinking that there might be an option for faster frame rate, or larger burst capacity as a tradeoff. Canon's engineers obviously made other choices. I dunno about others, but I bought this camera knowing it was a 5 FPS body and that my mk3 was 6 FPS. Yeah, I'd like more frame rate, but I ain't bitchin much. Image quality is pretty astonishing.

-Greg
 
Canon made a reasonable engineering choice, it seems to me.
There is nothing "engineering" about that. It is purely marketing gimmick with no purpose rather than to mark the "Camera can shoot in APS-C mode" checkbox.

I've been using Canon for many years, at times considered changing to Nikon but decided to stay away after counting all pros and cons. To me this is the worst solution ever that came from Canon.

The only explanation I would accept is that the developers use it as a temporary placeholder that will be implemented properly in some of the firmware upgrades.
There are lots of photographers, with many different needs. A feature that is critical to one photographer may be useless to another.

The crop shooting on the 5Ds is no more a marketing gimmick then highlight tone priority, auto lighting optimizer, picture styles, JPEG resolution, JPEG quality, or even auto white balance. These are all settings that only apply to the creation of the JPEG from the RAW data.

For those that shoot JPEG, these are productive and helpful options.

You can make a reasonable argument that these settings are irrelevant when shooting RAW. But this is not always the case.

Some people shoot RAW+JPEG. If they get things right in the camera, they use the JPEG. If not, they process the RAW.

Even those that only shoot RAW can benefit from these options. It can be helpful to preselect these settings in the camera, with the option to override in post processing.
I would find myself agreeing with you more if shooting with them in JPEG gave you some advantage beyond not needing to crop after the fact - a nominal FPS boost for each crop factor would have been nice for Canon to provide tbh.
 
I would find myself agreeing with you more if shooting with them in JPEG gave you some advantage beyond not needing to crop after the fact - a nominal FPS boost for each crop factor would have been nice for Canon to provide tbh.
Faster crop frame rates would have been nice. We don't know if data throughput is the only limiting factor in this camera. Faster frame rates might require beefing up other components as well. This would increase the price of the camera.

For someone like me, who does not need higher frame rates from this camera, I prefer a lower price point.

Perhaps we will see 50megapixels and 10fps in an $8K the 1Dx replacement?
 
I would find myself agreeing with you more if shooting with them in JPEG gave you some advantage beyond not needing to crop after the fact - a nominal FPS boost for each crop factor would have been nice for Canon to provide tbh.
Faster crop frame rates would have been nice. We don't know if data throughput is the only limiting factor in this camera. Faster frame rates might require beefing up other components as well. This would increase the price of the camera.

For someone like me, who does not need higher frame rates from this camera, I prefer a lower price point.

Perhaps we will see 50megapixels and 10fps in an $8K the 1Dx replacement?
Good point - it also takes a lot of mirror box engineering, although it looks like they used the same tech from the 7D2 here as far as the mechanism (at least according to the marketing folks), but who really knows.
 
I don't think some people get it. The 5DS/R has the same approximate pixel density as the 7D, a 1.6 crop camera. So the "crop" functions in the menu are completely unnecessary. You shoot the whole frame, and then you--if you choose to or need to--take any crop out of it you want. If you take a 7D size crop out of the center, then it would be just like you used a 1.6 crop factor camera. You just have some extra real estate outside. Yes, the file is bigger, but the RAW files themselves are not all that big--50-60MB.

The thing is, this is great. With your 7D, you might get a little too tight, and cut off something you needed. Or you need to straighten a building later, and that always takes extra width. Now you have it. You can take a 1.6 crop from the center, from to bottom, from the upper left corner, etc. You still end up with the pixels the 7D would have given you but with new flexibility. My wife used it on Saturday to shoot flying birds with a 500mm F4L and 2X extender. On the 7D, that would have been really tight and a challenge to keep a flying bird in the viewfinder. On the 5DSR, there was extra room outside the center 1.6 portion, so if the bird zigged, instead of zigging out of the frame, it zigged to the side of the frame, but still in the picture.

This is going to be the sleeper wildlife camera, I think. The hi res FF sensor gives a new flexibility and makes the camera actually more forgiving in your composition, since it is full frame, but with the pixel density of a 1.6 crop camera. The poo poo-ers can complain all they want. A lot of them did with the 5D2, but I preorder it, and got nearly seven years of use out of it...and it still works just like when it was new. That's why I pre ordered this one. First impressions are that it is going to do a lot more than advertised, once we stop thinking of it as just a full frame camera, although in that role, it is already extraordinary. Who cares about the crop factor. Crop it in Photoshop.
 
This is going to be the sleeper wildlife camera, I think. The hi res FF sensor gives a new flexibility and makes the camera actually more forgiving in your composition, since it is full frame, but with the pixel density of a 1.6 crop camera.
But you lose the benefit of "Crop Mode" we see on other cameras (especially shooting RAW). In this case, it seems, you do not get the increase in frames per second shooting rate and smaller file size that Crop Mode usually gives.
Who cares about the crop factor. Crop it in Photoshop.
Some find it beneficial to crop in camera (capture less so smaller file) than doing it out of camera in post. In this case, if the 5Ds(r) doesn't actually crop at capture, there may indeed be little/no benefit.

--
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)
 
Last edited:
I set the camera to raw and 1:1 crop. The viewfinder shows the crop and the rest of the screen is darkened so you can see what is outside the crop as a compositional aid. As you press the shutter button the sides of the crop flash red to warn you what is not included. I opened the raw file in ACR and low and behold it was cropped as shot. The file opened to 192 mb 19.307 inches square at 300 dpi.... a full frame is around 288mb.

I open the same raw file in Capture One and I have the full 288mb file without any reference to the crop...

Interesting....will need to read the manual....;-)

PS Just went back to ACR....If I click on the crop tool the rest of the raw file (the full frame) appears.... This is way cool for composition. No you don't get some magical extra reach just a crop but with 50 mp the extra size does give lots of room when compared to a 20 mp camera.
 
Last edited:
...

Some find it beneficial to crop in camera (capture less so smaller file) than doing it out of camera in post. In this case, if the 5Ds(r) doesn't actually crop at capture, there may indeed be little/no benefit.

...
The 5Ds crops in camera when you are shooting JPEG.

Some photographers do shoot JPEG.
 
...

Some find it beneficial to crop in camera (capture less so smaller file) than doing it out of camera in post. In this case, if the 5Ds(r) doesn't actually crop at capture, there may indeed be little/no benefit.

...
The 5Ds crops in camera when you are shooting JPEG.

Some photographers do shoot JPEG.
It crops in camera (post capture?) but it does not seem to capture just the crop area, like some models do. So you may not get the benefits of the more traditional Crop Mode.
 
It captures only the cropped area in jpeg. The file is only the cropped area in jpeg no extra..In raw you have more options.
Not sure that's the case looking at how buffer and shooting rate are affected or not affected. in other words...is the 5Ds(r) cropping in camera from a full sensor read/capture...or only reading that area of the sensor that represent the crop mode FoV.

As to what I was considering: from the OP: "When you view the image in Lightroom and bring up the crop tool, the full image is actually still there, and you can 'undo' the crop". That's not how crop mode works in some other models

--
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)
 
Last edited:
It captures only the cropped area in jpeg. The file is only the cropped area in jpeg no extra..In raw you have more options.
Not sure that's the case looking at how buffer and shooting rate are affected or not affected. in other words...is the 5Ds(r) cropping in camera from a full sensor read/capture...or only reading that area of the sensor that represent the crop mode FoV.

As to what I was considering: from the OP: "When you view the image in Lightroom and bring up the crop tool, the full image is actually still there, and you can 'undo' the crop". That's not how crop mode works in some other models
 
It captures only the cropped area in jpeg. The file is only the cropped area in jpeg no extra..In raw you have more options.
Not sure that's the case looking at how buffer and shooting rate are affected or not affected.

...
Yes, that is the case. JPEGs are cropped, and RAW files contain all pixels, but default to the specified crop.

I have confirmed this by setting the 5Ds to crop mode and shooting RAW+JPEG:

The camera produced JPEG was cropped.

The Raw file was marked to be cropped, but contained the full sensor data. When I open the RAW file in Photoshop CS6, it defaults to cropping as specified in the camera. Using the crop tool, I can change the cropping. I can even remove the cropping and get the full, uncropped, image.
 
It captures only the cropped area in jpeg. The file is only the cropped area in jpeg no extra..In raw you have more options.
Not sure that's the case looking at how buffer and shooting rate are affected or not affected.

...
Yes, that is the case. JPEGs are cropped,...
Then in the case of 5Ds(r) JPEG's...does the camera records/captures the full sensor image then crop it and render the JPEG it writes to the card? ...vs reading/recording only the cropped area of the sensor. Would only make a difference in buffer/FPS performance...if any.
and RAW files contain all pixels, but default to the specified crop.
The Raw file was marked to be cropped, but contained the full sensor data. When I open the RAW file in Photoshop CS6, it defaults to cropping as specified in the camera. Using the crop tool, I can change the cropping. I can even remove the cropping and get the full, uncropped, image.
That's how I understood it to be with the 5Ds(r). In that case...there is really no practical benefit to Crop Mode in Raw.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top