OK, I understand now. The thing that confused me a bit was the term chosen ("crop factor"). While in fact it's got not so much to do with any cropping, as well that Oly simply chose to name them by their actual focal lengths instead of 35mm equivalent focal lengths. Right? Still, the outcome is the same: 4/3 14mm fiel of view is 35mm equivalent 28mm field of view. Thanks.
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E-1 vs 10D
- Thread starter YosemiteSam
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Olivia T. BvG
Senior Member
Thanks for the link!
Olivia
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Olivia
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Steven Noyes
Forum Pro
Hands down to Canon. Oly is not even in the playing field on this one. Sorry.
Oly has no wide angle. 14mm??? That is what equivalent of a 28mm on a
35mm system.
I would say tie to slight edge to Oly. 10D like a Rebel??? I don't think so. The
weather seals is a nice touch by Oly. Both have the same construction, though.
On price. Canon is the current clear winner.
for me? My typical crop is 3:2. So none.
A non issue since there is a 1.6 crop and you are using only the center
portion of the lens
5.1 VS 6.3??? You been reading books on new math boy?
Right now I would have to give a big win to Canon on this one BASED on
specs. Look at the photo-cell site size. The Oly is much smaller and will
result is less dynamic range and more noise. Also, long exposure noise
will be in Canon's favor more than likely.
Also, the Oly will have to be cropped down allot to get to a 3:2 ratio that
matches how I like to frame.
100% agree on this. It is nice to see manufactures taking this seriously
Let's see how well the camera focuses.
TIFF? Why in the world would you do this in camera. RAW or JPG. TIFFs are big, clucky and buy nothing over the smaller JPGs. If you are going after quality, use RAW. PS 7 supports it with an add on and it will be built into PS 8.
However, Canon employes a lossless compression of RAW data resulting in a much smaller file.
Ad Canon.
True.
True.
Like the TIFF thing. So what.
Canon syncs at a higher rate. Also has HS sync. This is a Canon Speed
light thing not a body thing.
Ad - Canon.
True.
???? E-1 seems to not have AI AF + Continuos Drive. Big advantage to Canon here.
I prefer a bit extra weight and find the 10D a bit light to my tastes. This is simply
opinion here.
Good thing to. You need to do much more homework.
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Dennis Massey
Well-known member
Dennis Massey
Well-known member
I have a fellow pro photographer who like myself will buy all three cameras to see what we like the most. He has Olympus, Nikon, and Canon. I have Nikon and Olympus. I Had no use for the Canon since it did not shoot Tiff files. I do a lot of advertising work!
The Nikon is more ready to shoot when you need it in speed. The Olympus E-10,E-20 while a little slow had superior images. The Canon had a beautiful fill flash capability (I live near the beach so this is important for sunset sessions) The Nikon had problems with the digital flash in TTL mode. Seems like it underexposes images only with the external flash in TTL.
If I just had a camera that was rugged and ready like the Nikon, Sharp like the Olympus and colorful like the Canon. I would have my dream camera!
E-1 We will just have to wait and see!
D. Massey
D. Massey
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The Nikon is more ready to shoot when you need it in speed. The Olympus E-10,E-20 while a little slow had superior images. The Canon had a beautiful fill flash capability (I live near the beach so this is important for sunset sessions) The Nikon had problems with the digital flash in TTL mode. Seems like it underexposes images only with the external flash in TTL.
If I just had a camera that was rugged and ready like the Nikon, Sharp like the Olympus and colorful like the Canon. I would have my dream camera!
E-1 We will just have to wait and see!
D. Massey
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hey, is that you in the picture?
Canon EOS had 2 advantages over 4/3:
1. Lots of pro's already using Canon EF system.
2. You could retrofit EF lenses to EOS cameras as a stop gap mesure.
Olympus are going to have tough time marketing the system to
professonals who already have cupboards full of EOS lenses.
But current lens lengths are avkward to use. People have
complained about they have to switch lenses more often. IMHO, Canon
should just bring out 18-65mm just for all those D30/60/10D users.
They are not going away.
I don't know. The OM system was pretty big in their days. 8-1000mm.
And the latest 180mm f1.8 and 250mm 2.0 were considered THE
sharpest lenses anyone had tested. So they have the knowledge, but
can they sell it?
J.
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actually he does, there's still a focal lenth multiplier of 2 which means you have to multiply the focal length by 2, I'm not sure how Olympus markets their lenses if they go by the 35mm equivalent, the whole idea behind four thirds was an open standard and smaller and lighter lenses and bodies. In this regard they're succesful, these lenses are smaller and faster than their full size cousins.
I i think it's still 28mm
i think the actual focal length is 14mm not equivalent, check out Phil's review to double check.
J
Jon Ragnarsson
Guest
--Canon EOS had 2 advantages over 4/3:
1. Lots of pro's already using Canon EF system.
2. You could retrofit EF lenses to EOS cameras as a stop gap mesure.
Olympus are going to have tough time marketing the system to
professonals who already have cupboards full of EOS lenses.
But current lens lengths are avkward to use. People have
complained about they have to switch lenses more often. IMHO, Canon
should just bring out 18-65mm just for all those D30/60/10D users.
They are not going away.
I don't know. The OM system was pretty big in their days. 8-1000mm.
And the latest 180mm f1.8 and 250mm 2.0 were considered THE
sharpest lenses anyone had tested. So they have the knowledge, but
can they sell it?
J.
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http://jonr.beecee.org/
Nicholas Marrone
Member
Think about it this way: do medium format cameras have a negative "crop factor?" On my 6x6 TLR a 65mm lens is wide angle. Does a 35mm camera have a crop factor of that? The answer is no. Just because the field of view of different cameras with lenses of the same length does not mean there is a crop factor involved.
Anyway, the E-1 has an equivalent field of view to 2x that of a 35mm camera. The 14mm lens is similar to a 28mm on an Om-1.
Yes, I understand. Of course it's logical that a smaller sensor has a different field of view, or to say it better: needs a lense that has different characatistics to gain comparible field of view as 35mm "sensors". But regarding their present competitors I imagined Oly had chosen to label the charactaristics of their lenses in 35mm equivalent numbers. Apperently they didnt. Further more it was the term "2x crop" a poster used that got me confused.
Joseph S Wisniewski
Forum Pro
Those are the "actual focal lengths". A 300mm lens brings light from a far away source into focus at a point 300mm from the lens. It doesn't matter if it's for 8mm movie film an E-1 sized sensor, 35mm film or 70mm film. It's still a 300mm lens. You don't need any film or sensor of any size to measure them, just a ruler, a light source, and a piece of paper to focus on. (a modern 300mm telephoto lens is a bit shorter than 300mm because it uses multiple lements in the lens to "shorten" the optical path a bit).
Now, if you draw a triangle, 300mm tall and 43mm wide at the base (35mm film has a 43mm diagonal) and measure the angle of the point, you see it's 8 degrees. If you draw another triangle, 300mm tall and 21mm wide (the diagonal of the E-1 sensor) at the base, you get a 4 degree triangle. The E-1 sensor is "filled" by a distant object 1/2 the size of an object that will fill the 35mm film.
So, a 300mm lens is always 300mm, no matter what size camera it's on. It just acts like teice as powerful a telephoto when it's onthe smaller E-1 sensor.
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Ciao!
Joe
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Joseph S Wisniewski
Forum Pro
More of a mess. The term "full frame" does not refer directly to the light sensing area of each pixel. It refers to the circuitry that "transfers" charges from the pixels to the A/D converter. There are two types of transfer circuits, "interline transfer" and "full frame transfer". The "full frame" chip only has one set of circuits, which do "double duty". First they accumunate a charge during the actual exposure, then the same circuits move the charge off the chip. An "interline" chip has separate circuitry for accumulation and transfer. Because the full frame chip has less circuitry, the circuitry it does have can be made larger, filling more of the chip's space with sensing cells. This isn't always the case, some full frame chips end up with smaller cells then equivelant interline chips.
I'm pretty sure this is the only way Oly uses the term "full frame". They don't use it to describe sensor size. This is also a confusing point, because many of the E-1 parts (like the shutter and the prism, the two biggest and heaviest parts of the camera) are full 35mm sized components. So it's only partially "full frame". (is the frame half full, or half empty?)
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J
John Burns
Guest
I was willing to give you the benefit of a doubt but when you resorted to quoted Eminem(alias Enema) you crossed the line.
John
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John
J
John Burns
Guest
Better hope the E1 is at least a moderate success or the next time you check things may be different.
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John
YosemiteSam
Leading Member
I said ad - Canon didn't I, S_F_Brains? Olympus has also announced an 11-22 F/2.8-3.5 for the E-1, A_Wipe. That translates to 22-44 designed for the sensor . Read up.
Gee, no errors here, huh?
Not on your life. 10D + TWO lenses = E-1 + ONE lens and Canon costs 50% more (unless u wnat El Cheap-O canon glass) and is close to twice the weight, the body is not sealed, has no CCD cleaner, .... Oh, and the Oly lenses are faster overall. (1)
As you've probably been told before - You ain't the typical case. Fool. And u must be stuck in 35mm world if u always do 3:2. There's so much more out there! ANd it'll cose less cause you'll be using standard sizes!
If you were capable of reading what I wrote, I eliminated the pixels on the long end of the Canon - those that most people crop off.
Well you agreed with me on most everything else except so I'll stop now.
Boy.
(1) Zuiko-Digital 14-54 F/2.8-3.5 $599 MSRP
Canon 14-40 F/4 $799 Street + Canon 24-70 F/2.8 $1349.00 Street
Yes of course. It's just that it's been sort of common practice with f.i. non-DSLR cams to convert a lense's magnification power into 35mm equivalent terms. For instance the Olympus 2100 in reality has a 8-80mm integrated zoomlens (or something like that, I dont know exactly, doesnt really matter), yet about everybody (even Phil Askey in his review) speaks of it as having a 38-380mm lense, as derived from the 35mm world. I guess mainly to make comparisments easier. So at first I thought Oly had done the same with the E1 lenses.
J
John Burns
Guest
Of course there is much more out there and it is better to start with 6.3MP than 5MP when dealing with it. 4x6 and multiples advantage Canon. 5x7 and multiples bigger advantage Canon. 8x10 and multiples pretty close.
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John
agreed, oly lenses are nice light and fast but lens selection right now still belongs to eos system
Agreed, reading the reviews it's apparent the Oly body is built like the higher end pro cameras but I vehemently disagree with your rebel analogy, the 10d is a very well made camera.
Disagree, the canon is now $1400 in some areas, the 3d is coming out and the price of the 10d will drop even further, you also have to remember even if the demand for the e1 is high if Olympus can't keep w production then price will remain high plus Olympus is pretty harsh when it comes to pricing, if you want to add a battery grip, that's $500, another $500 for the top of the line flash, that's close to $3000 for a camera system with only four available lenses at launch. I've so far seen two images from the e1, not bad but nothing mind blowing either, good noise control though but lets see how it does at the higher isos.
Your forgetting that people also these for printing, design and publication, not all image files are destined for the 8x10 format, it's better to start with a larger file always for more flexibility.
And what about losses to vignetting or
Only the sharpest central portion of the lens is used, this point is moot.
I won't do any calculations here, but I'd say the effective
No, that's stretching it, 18mb vs 14mb is still significant, and if you shoot raw it's even bigger, does Olympus have a raw format? Tiffs take too long to write and take up too much space.
But, according to the specs published
These arent specs, these are marketing claims, I don't think you can make a verdict at this point because the claims haven't been verified by third parties. For all you know Olympus is making these claims against their old exx series which had the same designed for digital lens.
Agreed, but no one knows if it works yet though.
agreed
10d has auto=rotate, Oly no.
agreed
Hmmm...agreed
No big deal
So does Canon, it's a tie and for a pro camera the sync speed is fairly slow
Huh? How? Isn't a 60 second exposure better than 30>
Ad-oly
Based on preference, to some the 10x zoom is more important than playback modes.
call it a tie or cancel it.
Ad Oly
moot for many people, they use card readers
Canon 10d has ai servo.ai focus tracking, more and cheaper accessories,
Some prefer heavier cameras for stability, pure preference
That's based on body specs and features alone, image quality does not blow the 10d away.
Steven Noyes
Forum Pro
Actually there several other points I strongly disagreed with you as well. You were making wild assumptions (like noise and quality. And BTW the one sample image looks pretty good noise wise) all over the place and discarding any advantage (like flash sync/CMOS noise/higher resolution of 10D...) that the 10D had over the E-1 while lording over small advantages (like seals) to trounce the 10D. The 10D a Rebel??? Get real on this one. Wake up man. In short, there was no subjectivity to your post and it was poorly thought out and executed.
On price you can only look at the body. You can not assume (because that makes an A$$ out of U and ME) that every one will want the same cheap lenses you will. Personally, I find the choices rather week and, on the average, rather slow. So with the price, you compare the price of the body. Then what lens? I like primes and avoid zooms. For me, I have 2 choices. One is what??? $8,000 USD ? I am slowly getting rid of my zooms and going to all primes. Why? I prefer primes.
You think a 4 lens system will trounce the Canon lens system with its TS/E lenses, higher speed primes, and multiple macros. You concede the lens issue (but you really don't if you read your post) because you have already decided to buy the E-1 (and it does look like a start of a nice system) while looking for cheerleaders to validate your decision.
You (subjectively) assume that every one lives in the same 3:4 TV world that you do and will crop each and every photo to a 3:4 ratio. I seldom do. I like wider ratios typically like 3:2, 2:1, 3:1 and 4:1. So please, stop watching all that TV and notice the various ratios surrounding your world.
Steven
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On price you can only look at the body. You can not assume (because that makes an A$$ out of U and ME) that every one will want the same cheap lenses you will. Personally, I find the choices rather week and, on the average, rather slow. So with the price, you compare the price of the body. Then what lens? I like primes and avoid zooms. For me, I have 2 choices. One is what??? $8,000 USD ? I am slowly getting rid of my zooms and going to all primes. Why? I prefer primes.
You think a 4 lens system will trounce the Canon lens system with its TS/E lenses, higher speed primes, and multiple macros. You concede the lens issue (but you really don't if you read your post) because you have already decided to buy the E-1 (and it does look like a start of a nice system) while looking for cheerleaders to validate your decision.
You (subjectively) assume that every one lives in the same 3:4 TV world that you do and will crop each and every photo to a 3:4 ratio. I seldom do. I like wider ratios typically like 3:2, 2:1, 3:1 and 4:1. So please, stop watching all that TV and notice the various ratios surrounding your world.
Steven
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J
John Mason
Guest
the real problem will be Canon never sets on it's laurals. The D60 came out about 1 year after the D30 and had twice the megapixels in the same size sensor with no noise increase - which is an amazing feat. Canon's Cmos sensors have proprietary technology in that they have a seperate amp for each pixel tuned to cancel random variations which is how they pulled up the double the pixels in the same space with no noise increase magic.
The problem would be when, by the time the E1 actually ships, Canon will have it's next version out or shortly out which will be a 1.3 crop in the 8mp range.
On the analysis, most was pretty good. The problem points were the comparison to the Rebel. Obviously the original poster has not actually handled a 10d. It's not like a rebel at all.
The lens advantage for the Olympus could be pretty strong. You usually have to get 2 good lenses to equal what Olympus will be able to pull off with one lens because of the 10D crop factor. But if canon comes out with the 1.3 8mp version of the 10D this Olympus advantage will not be as strong.
One thing that was not pointed out was the number of excellent 3rd party lens choices for the proprietary Canon lens mount which is funny since the Olympus is a multi-manufacturer standard which only has one announced seller of lenses. So at this time Canon has a strong advantage there.
The sync speed analysis of the original poster was not correct at all since what is important about sync speed is the ultimate real speed of the shutter, not the size of the curtain slot or the HS sync tricks of certain flashes. The 10D has an inherently faster shutter which helps in shooting moving objects. Higher the better.
The corner light fall off as many pointed out isn't an issue since the 10D uses central portion of circle projected by the lens.
Bottom line will be that 6mp to 5mp won't be the reality by the time the E1 ships, but more like 8mp or 9mp to 5mp with similar noise and dynamic range characteristics. That will be the problem for Olympus to overcome. The CCD sensor they are using is also more costly to produce than the Canon CMOS sensors, so Canon can fight lower on any price war.
However, I think the Oly will be a great package for someone to start out with that wants a totally integrated digital system designed from the ground up for that purpose. But, it may just end up like bubble memory.
John Mason - Lafayette, IN
The problem would be when, by the time the E1 actually ships, Canon will have it's next version out or shortly out which will be a 1.3 crop in the 8mp range.
On the analysis, most was pretty good. The problem points were the comparison to the Rebel. Obviously the original poster has not actually handled a 10d. It's not like a rebel at all.
The lens advantage for the Olympus could be pretty strong. You usually have to get 2 good lenses to equal what Olympus will be able to pull off with one lens because of the 10D crop factor. But if canon comes out with the 1.3 8mp version of the 10D this Olympus advantage will not be as strong.
One thing that was not pointed out was the number of excellent 3rd party lens choices for the proprietary Canon lens mount which is funny since the Olympus is a multi-manufacturer standard which only has one announced seller of lenses. So at this time Canon has a strong advantage there.
The sync speed analysis of the original poster was not correct at all since what is important about sync speed is the ultimate real speed of the shutter, not the size of the curtain slot or the HS sync tricks of certain flashes. The 10D has an inherently faster shutter which helps in shooting moving objects. Higher the better.
The corner light fall off as many pointed out isn't an issue since the 10D uses central portion of circle projected by the lens.
Bottom line will be that 6mp to 5mp won't be the reality by the time the E1 ships, but more like 8mp or 9mp to 5mp with similar noise and dynamic range characteristics. That will be the problem for Olympus to overcome. The CCD sensor they are using is also more costly to produce than the Canon CMOS sensors, so Canon can fight lower on any price war.
However, I think the Oly will be a great package for someone to start out with that wants a totally integrated digital system designed from the ground up for that purpose. But, it may just end up like bubble memory.
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John Mason - Lafayette, IN
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