(pic) Trying to get it right...

Doug Barber · Jul 15, 2003

I've been doing lots of reading and searching and figuring on how is the best way to convert a color image to a B&W.

It has been interesting because it made me to spend some times looking at what we all call the "Masters"... No not Frank, Jarrell and Phil. But Adams, Karsh and Klein...

These guys had such fantastic skill both behind the camera and in the darkroom that one wonders if you could ever be just 10% as good. (Darn I'm not sure)

Anyway, I set out to try my hand at creating an image that would look decent after I converted it to B&W. I've come to the conclusion that this is easier said than done. (At least for me)

This is my (best) effort to date... but it still is missing that little something special.
Anyone got any ideas?
I know it can be better... I just cannot figure out how to do it.

--
All My Best
Doug Barber
http://www.pbase.com/dbarber
PBase supporter
(FCAS) Member
CP5700; PS7; Mac Ti-Book G4

FJBrad · Jul 15, 2003

Doug Barber said:
I've been doing lots of reading and searching and figuring on how
is the best way to convert a color image to a B&W.
It has been interesting because it made me to spend some times
looking at what we all call the "Masters"... No not Frank, Jarrell
and Phil. But Adams, Karsh and Klein...
These guys had such fantastic skill both behind the camera and in
the darkroom that one wonders if you could ever be just 10% as
good. (Darn I'm not sure)
Anyway, I set out to try my hand at creating an image that would
look decent after I converted it to B&W. I've come to the
conclusion that this is easier said than done. (At least for me)
This is my (best) effort to date... but it still is missing that
little something special.
Anyone got any ideas?
I know it can be better... I just cannot figure out how to do it.

--
All My Best
Doug Barber
http://www.pbase.com/dbarber
PBase supporter
(FCAS) Member
CP5700; PS7; Mac Ti-Book G4

Doug,

I don't know what method(s) you've tried yet, but I've had pretty good success using the Channel Mixer with the monochrome box checked, and then about +45to 50 in both the red and green sliders to start (generally leaving Blue to 0), and then slight changes from there. After I get it fairly neutral, I use curves to fine tune it (using a Curves adjustment layer in case I want to change it later).

Some people like to go into Channels and find the Channel with the least noise, then trash the remaining channels as a starting point.
You could also change to LAB mode, and work the Lightness channel.

If you want a monochrome hue, you can then use Hue and Saturation with the colorize box checked.

I think it's best just to experiment and find things that appeal to you. There isn't any right way to do it.
--
FJBrad

FJBrad · Jul 15, 2003

FJBrad said:
Doug Barber said:

I've been doing lots of reading and searching and figuring on how
is the best way to convert a color image to a B&W.
It has been interesting because it made me to spend some times
looking at what we all call the "Masters"... No not Frank, Jarrell
and Phil. But Adams, Karsh and Klein...
These guys had such fantastic skill both behind the camera and in
the darkroom that one wonders if you could ever be just 10% as
good. (Darn I'm not sure)
Anyway, I set out to try my hand at creating an image that would
look decent after I converted it to B&W. I've come to the
conclusion that this is easier said than done. (At least for me)
This is my (best) effort to date... but it still is missing that
little something special.
Anyone got any ideas?
I know it can be better... I just cannot figure out how to do it.

--
All My Best
Doug Barber
http://www.pbase.com/dbarber
PBase supporter
(FCAS) Member
CP5700; PS7; Mac Ti-Book G4

Click to expand...

Doug,
I don't know what method(s) you've tried yet, but I've had pretty
good success using the Channel Mixer with the monochrome box
checked, and then about +45to 50 in both the red and green sliders
to start (generally leaving Blue to 0), and then slight changes
from there. After I get it fairly neutral, I use curves to fine
tune it (using a Curves adjustment layer in case I want to change
it later).
Some people like to go into Channels and find the Channel with the
least noise, then trash the remaining channels as a starting point.
You could also change to LAB mode, and work the Lightness channel.
If you want a monochrome hue, you can then use Hue and Saturation
with the colorize box checked.
I think it's best just to experiment and find things that appeal to
you. There isn't any right way to do it.
--
FJBrad

Just wanted to add that I really liked what you did to the "Elevator" image.
--
FJBrad

Doug Barber · Jul 15, 2003

Thanks for the comments... I think I've been down all the paths you mentioned and a few more...lol

One thing I have learned... is every image is different so one should not simply use a canned approach.

But this is a long term project... so one should not think he can get it right on the first few images

Thanks again... and thanks for the kind words on the elevator. Actually, that was shot in B&W and simply adjusted in PS

--
All My Best
Doug Barber
http://www.pbase.com/dbarber
PBase supporter
(FCAS) Member
CP5700; PS7; Mac Ti-Book G4

Clive M Fox · Jul 15, 2003

Dear Doug,

Saw this photo the other day in colour I like it very much

With regards to the black & white version

On my monitor there is a tinge of green hue throughout the image

Using your image in photoshop I reduced the saturation to maximium - levels, this creates a more monchrome effect and renders the blacks to black, it also heightened the silver of the lady's hair

I then slightly reduced (in curves) the brightness and contrast making it in my humble opinion a much more moody shot.

I tried to post your image back again so you could see my result but do not know how to achieve this

Regards

Clive

Doug Barber said:
I've been doing lots of reading and searching and figuring on how
is the best way to convert a color image to a B&W.
It has been interesting because it made me to spend some times
looking at what we all call the "Masters"... No not Frank, Jarrell
and Phil. But Adams, Karsh and Klein...
These guys had such fantastic skill both behind the camera and in
the darkroom that one wonders if you could ever be just 10% as
good. (Darn I'm not sure)
Anyway, I set out to try my hand at creating an image that would
look decent after I converted it to B&W. I've come to the
conclusion that this is easier said than done. (At least for me)
This is my (best) effort to date... but it still is missing that
little something special.
Anyone got any ideas?
I know it can be better... I just cannot figure out how to do it.

--
All My Best
Doug Barber
http://www.pbase.com/dbarber
PBase supporter
(FCAS) Member
CP5700; PS7; Mac Ti-Book G4

R w H · Jul 15, 2003

The best and easiest method I've fouind for converting to b&w is to switch to Lab Color, then simply delete the a and b channels. In the end, the image will be refered to - in the channels menu - as Alpha 1. The result is far superior to either converting directly to gray scale, or selecting one of the channels in RGB. (Convert the transformed image back to RGB or grayscale before saving, though, or you will be unable to save as jpeg.) Really like the photo.

Bob

Doug Barber · Jul 15, 2003

Thanks for your note and the mail you sent me.
Here is the image you sent me...

This version seems to have more of a true B&W feel to it...

I think I like it but I'm not sure its still got the look I'm looking for. It seems to me that this image should have that 100 year old look.... (what ever that means)
What do you think?
Doug

Clive M Fox said:
Saw this photo the other day in colour I like it very much

With regards to the black & white version

On my monitor there is a tinge of green hue throughout the image

Using your image in photoshop I reduced the saturation to maximium

levels, this creates a more monchrome effect and renders the

blacks to black, it also heightened the silver of the lady's hair

I then slightly reduced (in curves) the brightness and contrast
making it in my humble opinion a much more moody shot.

I tried to post your image back again so you could see my result
but do not know how to achieve this

Regards

Clive

Doug Barber said:

I've been doing lots of reading and searching and figuring on how
is the best way to convert a color image to a B&W.
It has been interesting because it made me to spend some times
looking at what we all call the "Masters"... No not Frank, Jarrell
and Phil. But Adams, Karsh and Klein...
These guys had such fantastic skill both behind the camera and in
the darkroom that one wonders if you could ever be just 10% as
good. (Darn I'm not sure)
Anyway, I set out to try my hand at creating an image that would
look decent after I converted it to B&W. I've come to the
conclusion that this is easier said than done. (At least for me)
This is my (best) effort to date... but it still is missing that
little something special.
Anyone got any ideas?
I know it can be better... I just cannot figure out how to do it.

--
All My Best
Doug Barber
http://www.pbase.com/dbarber
PBase supporter
(FCAS) Member
CP5700; PS7; Mac Ti-Book G4

Click to expand...

--
All My Best
Doug Barber
http://www.pbase.com/dbarber
PBase supporter
(FCAS) Member
CP5700; PS7; Mac Ti-Book G4

Doug Barber · Jul 15, 2003

Thanks for this... I don't think I've ever tried this. I'll give it a go
Thanks again
Doug

R w H said:
The best and easiest method I've fouind for converting to b&w is to
switch to Lab Color, then simply delete the a and b channels. In
the end, the image will be refered to - in the channels menu - as
Alpha 1. The result is far superior to either converting directly
to gray scale, or selecting one of the channels in RGB. (Convert
the transformed image back to RGB or grayscale before saving,
though, or you will be unable to save as jpeg.) Really like the
photo.

Bob

--
All My Best
Doug Barber
http://www.pbase.com/dbarber
PBase supporter
(FCAS) Member
CP5700; PS7; Mac Ti-Book G4

Doug Barber · Jul 15, 2003

Okay, Here is my version

then we have Clives version

Also I did a version (following) RwH instructions

If anyone else wants to lend their talent...
Here is the color version

--
All My Best
Doug Barber
http://www.pbase.com/dbarber
PBase supporter
(FCAS) Member
CP5700; PS7; Mac Ti-Book G4

Clive M Fox · Jul 15, 2003

I should have used the original colour image to transform , I do agree the DwH version or the Alpha system is far better. I have never used that method before

Clive

JP Scherrer · Jul 16, 2003

Hi ! just a -perhaps- silly question: wouldn't it be better to take the pic in BW directly in-camera ?

...or else, have you ever tried to take the same pic, once in color and once in BW, just for the sake of judging the difference ?
...and WHAT is the difference ?

TIA for your thoughts...

Cheers,
Jean-Pierre
Pbase and DPReview supporter
Go have a look at : http://www.pbase.com/scherrer

marek k · Jul 16, 2003

rwh version doug... is my bet. The tones seem to range wider - well the blacks are blacker anyway. And b&w works better for this one than color.

Doug Barber said:
Also I did a version (following) RwH instructions

--
All My Best
Doug Barber
http://www.pbase.com/dbarber
PBase supporter
(FCAS) Member
CP5700; PS7; Mac Ti-Book G4

--
-marek

Some of my photographs can be found under the following links:
http://www.pbase.com/mkrol/
http://www.usefilm.com/browse.php?mode=port&data=14298
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~okocim/photos/

R w H · Jul 16, 2003

I often shoot in b&w with the 4500 (and until recently with the 995). The grayscale image from the camera is actually in RGB mode. Recently, when testing a Canon S9000 printer, I wanted to see if an RGB grayscale image gave different results than the same image saved in Grayscale mode. But I also converted the RGB b&w to Lab Color, deleted the a and b channels and found - to my surprise - an increase in the dynamic range of the picture.

Bob

Doug Barber · Jul 16, 2003

J.P.

I quit often take images in B&W. But they are normally what I would call static type shot's. Landscapes, buildings Etc.

When I'm shooting people, I normally shoot color only because I know I can change to B&W later. If I play with the camera as I try to shoot a person... I might not get the shot.
Doug

J-P. Scherrer said:
Hi ! just a -perhaps- silly question: wouldn't it be better to take
the pic in BW directly in-camera ?
...or else, have you ever tried to take the same pic, once in color
and once in BW, just for the sake of judging the difference ?
...and WHAT is the difference ?

TIA for your thoughts...

Cheers,
Jean-Pierre
Pbase and DPReview supporter
Go have a look at : http://www.pbase.com/scherrer

--
All My Best
Doug Barber
http://www.pbase.com/dbarber
PBase supporter
(FCAS) Member
CP5700; PS7; Mac Ti-Book G4

Doug Barber · Jul 16, 2003

Bob:

I'm the same... I find I'm shooting more and more in B&W and the range is much better than I could ever get in my computer.

The best B&W I've ever done were the ones right out of the camera. Mind you, having the ability to see the image in B&W right in the camera goes a long way to composing and lighting the image correctly.

Thanks again for the LAB process... I think I will be using it lots in the future.
Doug

R w H said:
I often shoot in b&w with the 4500 (and until recently with the
995). The grayscale image from the camera is actually in RGB mode.
Recently, when testing a Canon S9000 printer, I wanted to see if an
RGB grayscale image gave different results than the same image
saved in Grayscale mode. But I also converted the RGB b&w to Lab
Color, deleted the a and b channels and found - to my surprise - an
increase in the dynamic range of the picture.

Bob

--
All My Best
Doug Barber
http://www.pbase.com/dbarber
PBase supporter
(FCAS) Member
CP5700; PS7; Mac Ti-Book G4

Muriel S · Jul 16, 2003

I like Marek's rendition best.

As a side note, I just grabbed my 3100, took an auto pic with flash of my computer desktop side (including new shoes). Then I went to picture enhance, monochrome, and the camera made a b/w photo out of the color one and saved it as another photo. Unedited. Not too bad for taking just one pic.

--
Muriel - 9 9 5, 3 1 0 0, W C-6 3, T C-2 E
DPR and Pbase supporter
FCAS Charter Member

Danko · Jul 16, 2003

Have you tried to convert picture out of camera? How comparable results?

I can do it with mine, but I could not find picture (from my gallery)wich look nice as b/w (all look beter as it is)

Bohdan, CP 3100

Danko · Jul 16, 2003

Your pictures are right, but I think Marek's work look beter

all the best

Bohdan, CP 3100

Mykl Devlin · Jul 16, 2003

In black and white mode the camera is only recording 256 levels of grey. In RGB mode it is recording 256X256X256 different possible levels of colour intensity for each pixel...

So you should be able to get a better black and white out of a colour image than a "out of the camera" black and white.

Funny how we have all flexibility but a B&W film image still looks soooooo good.

Having said that, if you are not used to visuallising things in black and white, shooting with black and white turned on helps you with the technical aspects of it.

One possibility is to have a user set (speaking for the 5700 not sure how it works on the other cameras) with the image desaturated to find the image, and then the next user set with the same settings but normal colour to actually take it.

Mykl

J-P. Scherrer said:
Hi ! just a -perhaps- silly question: wouldn't it be better to take
the pic in BW directly in-camera ?
...or else, have you ever tried to take the same pic, once in color
and once in BW, just for the sake of judging the difference ?
...and WHAT is the difference ?

TIA for your thoughts...

Muriel S · Jul 16, 2003

I like your pic, too, Doug, but I am not exactly a great black and white fan. I think the color photo looked better.
--
Muriel - 9 9 5, 3 1 0 0, W C-6 3, T C-2 E
DPR and Pbase supporter
FCAS Charter Member

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