What happened to Loxia? Is Batis the plan going forward?

Not sure about the 25/2 as a "cafe" or "street" lens for normal people - this thing looks positively huge and I would run the other direction if someone pointed it at me. I do think they'll probably introduce more Loxia lenses down to 21mm based on flipping through the ZM lens catalog and what could fit a 52mm filter (which is supposed to be standard across the line). If I had to bet, 21mm will be hte next focal length.

philip pj said:

The 25/2 is also AF, making it very useful as a 'cafe' lens or for street use, tight enviro portraits...weighs just 335 grams, just 50 grams more than the FE55 prime. It's a 10/8 Distagon, Zeiss's Distagons are perhaps the best design range they have ever made in full frame, from quite early days too. I'd say Carl Zeiss just kicked a goal.

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lokiminion said:

Not sure about the 25/2 as a "cafe" or "street" lens for normal people - this thing looks positively huge and I would run the other direction if someone pointed it at me. I do think they'll probably introduce more Loxia lenses down to 21mm based on flipping through the ZM lens catalog and what could fit a 52mm filter (which is supposed to be standard across the line). If I had to bet, 21mm will be hte next focal length.

philip pj said:

The 25/2 is also AF, making it very useful as a 'cafe' lens or for street use, tight enviro portraits...weighs just 335 grams, just 50 grams more than the FE55 prime. It's a 10/8 Distagon, Zeiss's Distagons are perhaps the best design range they have ever made in full frame, from quite early days too. I'd say Carl Zeiss just kicked a goal.

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It's 78MM long, in comparison the FE55 is 70.5MM long, so it's just a bit bigger than the FE55.

Not huge but not tiny, the Loxia 35/2 or 50/2 would be a much better less conspicuous option maybe

So how does Zeiss make the Batis version of the 2/25 Distagon for FE smaller than the ZE version of of the 2/25 and add AF? And how did they make it $400 less? Did they compromise something? If not its going to be interesting.

Steve W said:

So how does Zeiss make the Batis version of the 2/25 Distagon for FE smaller than the ZE version of of the 2/25 and add AF? And how did they make it $400 less? Did they compromise something? If not its going to be interesting.

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Those SLR lenses have huge flange distances that mirrorless doesn't have

Look at M mount lenses vs Canon/Nikon Zeiss SLR lenses, they are like half the size

Snikt228 said:

Steve W said:

So how does Zeiss make the Batis version of the 2/25 Distagon for FE smaller than the ZE version of of the 2/25 and add AF? And how did they make it $400 less? Did they compromise something? If not its going to be interesting.

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Those SLR lenses have huge flange distances that mirrorless doesn't have

Look at M mount lenses vs Canon/Nikon Zeiss SLR lenses, they are like half the size

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Yes but the ZM is a Biogon, f/2.8 and MF. I'm thinking that's what the Loxia will be modeled after and small.

My only concern with the great upcoming Batis...... my experience with the Touit. I paid $900 and it dropped to nearly half price...

And I can't use it on FE. So its currently waiting in a box.

The Batis better hold value...... They look great, now with OSS

Steve W said:

Yes but the ZM is a Biogon, f/2.8 and MF. I'm thinking that's what the Loxia will be modeled after and small.

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Short semi-symmetrical lenses like the Biogons have difficulty with corner crosstalk on full frame low pitch sensors, and corner smearing on full frame sensors. Retrofocus designs like the Distagons in general do well with these sensors.

Jim

philip pj said:

Zeiss will have sales numbers for Loxia by now, I am guessing they did not go as well as hoped for, hence pushing the announcement of the Batis pair.

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Have to question your thought process on this statement.

The Loxia lens (all 2 of them) are near impossible to find in stock. Usually the day B+H and Adorama get them they are gone and Amazon never has them other than shipping from Japan

It would seem to me the US demand at least is far greater than Zeiss anticipated.

I would think Batis appeals to many more buyers though, and likely the shortage was just Zeiss not forecasting or making many.

lokiminion said:

Not sure about the 25/2 as a "cafe" or "street" lens for normal people - this thing looks positively huge and I would run the other direction if someone pointed it at me. I do think they'll probably introduce more Loxia lenses down to 21mm based on flipping through the ZM lens catalog and what could fit a 52mm filter (which is supposed to be standard across the line). If I had to bet, 21mm will be hte next focal length.

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I hope you are right, I would love to see a 21 Loxia come out by end of the year. Would be happy with an 18 or 21.

JimKasson said:

Steve W said:

Yes but the ZM is a Biogon, f/2.8 and MF. I'm thinking that's what the Loxia will be modeled after and small.

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Short semi-symmetrical lenses like the Biogons have difficulty with corner crosstalk on full frame low pitch sensors, and corner smearing on full frame sensors. Retrofocus designs like the Distagons in general do well with these sensors.

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Sorry for talking about FF cameras in this context.

Jim

mreynolds767 said:

lokiminion said:

Not sure about the 25/2 as a "cafe" or "street" lens for normal people - this thing looks positively huge and I would run the other direction if someone pointed it at me. I do think they'll probably introduce more Loxia lenses down to 21mm based on flipping through the ZM lens catalog and what could fit a 52mm filter (which is supposed to be standard across the line). If I had to bet, 21mm will be hte next focal length.

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I hope you are right, I would love to see a 21 Loxia come out by end of the year. Would be happy with an 18 or 21.

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Don't think they'll do an 18 - the 15 and 18 are Distagon designs, which seems to be significantly bigger. The smallest biogon design with a filter today of under 52mm that they can adapt is the 21mm f2.8. I would prefer they adapt the smaller and cheaper f4.5 but they'll probably go with the f2.8.

http://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/en_de/camera_lenses/zeiss-ikon/biogont2821zm.html

With respect to the original poster about Zeiss accelerating their Batis plans due to poor Loxia sales, I don't believe that is the case. The amount of work that went into these shows that it was probably at least a year in development if not more - the knee jerk reaction would've been to just fit an E-Mount on their SLR line of lenses and call it a day. If anything, announcing the Batis probably hurts their Loxia sales as a 55mm FE + 25mm Batis makes probably more sense than owning both the 55 and 35.

Anecdotally, I think the Loxia line probably did well given how hard it took to procure these lenses - hard to find them in stock still. If the 35mm FE 2.8 was an F2, things might've been different but Zeiss probably recouped their investment and then some - I def paid a small fortune for mine. The core technical challenge seems to have been creating this corrections mirror that's used on both the 35 and 50 so probably not much incremental cost to just insert that into the existing ZM 21 and 25 design plus repackage it using the new barrel design.

lokiminion said:

mreynolds767 said:

lokiminion said:

Not sure about the 25/2 as a "cafe" or "street" lens for normal people - this thing looks positively huge and I would run the other direction if someone pointed it at me. I do think they'll probably introduce more Loxia lenses down to 21mm based on flipping through the ZM lens catalog and what could fit a 52mm filter (which is supposed to be standard across the line). If I had to bet, 21mm will be hte next focal length.

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I hope you are right, I would love to see a 21 Loxia come out by end of the year. Would be happy with an 18 or 21.

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Don't think they'll do an 18 - the 15 and 18 are Distagon designs, which seems to be significantly bigger. The smallest biogon design with a filter today of under 52mm that they can adapt is the 21mm f2.8. I would prefer they adapt the smaller and cheaper f4.5 but they'll probably go with the f2.8.

http://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/en_de/camera_lenses/zeiss-ikon/biogont2821zm.html

With respect to the original poster about Zeiss accelerating their Batis plans due to poor Loxia sales, I don't believe that is the case. The amount of work that went into these shows that it was probably at least a year in development if not more - the knee jerk reaction would've been to just fit an E-Mount on their SLR line of lenses and call it a day. If anything, announcing the Batis probably hurts their Loxia sales as a 55mm FE + 25mm Batis makes probably more sense than owning both the 55 and 35.

Anecdotally, I think the Loxia line probably did well given how hard it took to procure these lenses - hard to find them in stock still. If the 35mm FE 2.8 was an F2, things might've been different but Zeiss probably recouped their investment and then some - I def paid a small fortune for mine. The core technical challenge seems to have been creating this corrections mirror that's used on both the 35 and 50 so probably not much incremental cost to just insert that into the existing ZM 21 and 25 design plus repackage it using the new barrel design.

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Based on your assessment does that mean you think a 21mm Loxia would be fairly straight forward to add to the product line now that the work for the 35 and 50 has been done? I purchased both of them and really like the feel and would love to see a 21 added to the family. I'm a sucker for Zeiss glass so I've already ordered the two Batis but have to admit if these are good I will start to sell of some of my Canon primes to cover their cost.

I won't be selling my Canon bodies but I do tend to use those more with the excellent zooms and my A7II with primes more now. Also, now that there are some great primes for the A7II the Fuji X-T1 system will probably be the odd man out. Loved the 14, 23, and 56 on it but if I can get a Loxia 21, 35, 50 and Batis 25 and 85 that would be great. My expectation is the 1.8/85 and the XF 1.2/56 will give exactly the same DOF. Yes the EV capability will be a little less but I can live with that.

So

XF 14mm to Loxia 21mm (when it happens) until then adapted ZE 21mm

XF 16mm to Batis 25mm

XF 23mm to Loxia 35mm

XF 35mm to Loxia 50mm

XF 56mm to Batis 85mm

Sony with high quality primes is becoming a reality. May even have to consider the 35mm f/1.4

First, Disclaimer: I'm not an optical engineer but I work in corporate strategy in real life and have lately gotten probably a little too OCD over photography in the past few months and have read through a lot of the literature out there before I bought my Loxia so that's the framework I'm applying.

http://www.verybiglobo.com/photokina-2014-zeiss-loxia-story/

I thought this was a good write-up on the technical background of the Loxia line + the two reviews he did of the 35mm and 50mm lenses.

Using this article as a starting point and the data sheets, I don't think it's "easy" but I think a lot of the work on the 35mm f2 biogon should be able to be adapted to a 25mm f2 design or the F4.5 design. Both 21mm designs fit into the diameter of the lens casing used although the 21mm f2.8 ZM design is a lot longer than the existing Loxia casings while the F4.5 design is shorter and can probably be dropped in with a corrective lens fairly easily.

With some more thought behind this, I'm going to bet that it'll be the 21mm f4.5 design since it fits into the existing design perimeters of the Loxia casing, which seems to be the same size for both the 35mm and 50mm lenses. However, the market probably wants the 21 f2.8 more so maybe Zeiss will surprise us with a longer Loxia casing and release a telephoto lens too. It seems like their MO is to release two lenses at a time (35 & 55, 25 & 85), so maybe they'll re-release the 85mm tele-tassar or the 100mm planar (adapt the 50mm planar corrective optics for this one?) at the same time.

All this is a reasonable educated guess and no more so feel free to agree or disagree.

some updates made.

Steve W said:

Based on your assessment does that mean you think a 21mm Loxia would be fairly straight forward to add to the product line now that the work for the 35 and 50 has been done? I purchased both of them and really like the feel and would love to see a 21 added to the family. I'm a sucker for Zeiss glass so I've already ordered the two Batis but have to admit if these are good I will start to sell of some of my Canon primes to cover their cost.

I won't be selling my Canon bodies but I do tend to use those more with the excellent zooms and my A7II with primes more now. Also, now that there are some great primes for the A7II the Fuji X-T1 system will probably be the odd man out. Loved the 14, 23, and 56 on it but if I can get a Loxia 21, 35, 50 and Batis 25 and 85 that would be great. My expectation is the 1.8/85 and the XF 1.2/56 will give exactly the same DOF. Yes the EV capability will be a little less but I can live with that.

So

XF 14mm to Loxia 21mm (when it happens) until then adapted ZE 21mm

XF 16mm to Batis 25mm

XF 23mm to Loxia 35mm

XF 35mm to Loxia 50mm

XF 56mm to Batis 85mm

Sony with high quality primes is becoming a reality. May even have to consider the 35mm f/1.4

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Steve W said:

I was surprised to see the Batis announcement of FE lenses with AF similar in concept to the Touits for APS-C. Does that mean that Loxia concept is dead? I had hoped for the 25 or 21mm Loxia to go with the 35/2 and 50/2 but will that ever happen now with the Batis 25/2?

I agree that an 85/1.8 and 25/2 are needed I just don't want another theme introduced to distract from a consistent set of lenses. This is fragmenting the market in the sense that the feel and approach to these lenses are all different. I'm a big fan on consistency when it comes to lens families. The ZM family with 15, 18, 21, 25, 35, 50, and 85 is what I want to see for Sony with the Loxia, or even if it had been Batis I could understand but what is Zeiss up to?

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It is just a different bird...

I am just surprised Loxia and Batis are even close in price. I would have assumed AF and OSS would have increased the cost significantly assuming lens performance is the same between both lines.

I will be getting one lens from each camp soon. Doing video and photo makes for an expensive hobby.

Steve W said:

sean lancaster said:

Steve W said:

JurijTurnsek said:

Loxia is a different beast and it still has a place in FE lens lineup. But I would think that the Batis line will sell more and that Loxia lenses will always be hard to find in stock.

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Agree its a different beast but I was hoping that Zeiss would "focus" its effortst on a Loxia line and fill it out before creating another. Or for that matter never started with Loxia if they weren't committed to it. 3 Touits, 2 Loxia, 2 Batis's. Seems they are very schizophrenic. That's why I sold of my Touits. Just didn't think I would ever see another one in the Fuji mount. In some cases I liked them better than Fuji but having a lens family that is consistent is a big thing to me.

That's why I'm a fan of roadmaps. Even if Batis lenses are great, and I seen no reason not to believe they will be, what focal length after 25 and 85 should I expect next? Same is true for Loxia. Even Touit.

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I don't see the sense in what you're saying. Why would a lens lose appeal because there would not be a full line of similar branded lenses? I could see myself buying the Batis 25/2 and calling it good with Batis. I guess I am surprised that people think brands instead of focal lengths. Give me quality and the focal lengths I want and I am happy. I prefer to keep my lenses smaller, but even the Rokinon 135/2 feels appropriate to me for what it provides.

Sean Lancaster Photos on Facebook

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Sean, I'm not thinking brands, I'm thinking systems, ergonomics and consistency. Most system have similar ways of processing the colors and EV so that changing focal lengths doesn't change the rendering or exposure in very different ways. Back in the day I remember Nikon getting lots of credit for ensuring that their lens line was consistent across all their focal lengths. Also, consistent ergonomics also help with muscle memory and improves working speed. Does the focus ring turn in the same direction, does it have the same feel. Are the markings in the smae place. Fuji's 14 and 23 and now 16 all have the same manual focus clutch but their 18, 35, 60, and 56 are different. Their 27 doesn't have an aperture ring for example. Do you or don't you have a MF switch, etc. I don't want to have to relearn how every lens works. When I change from 55mm to 85mm or to 105mm or 135mm when doing a portrait shoot I don't want to relearn how to use a lens (and no zoom are great but no the answer to this question). I want the 85, 105, and 135 to siblings. This is all just my opinion but its based on years of use of cameras and for many years why systems have been successful.

I know craftsmen who feel the same way about their hand tools or power tools. Consistent ergonomics helps be more productive.

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What can I say?

+1 = In other words, spot on!


All the best,
Pedro

Steve W said:

JurijTurnsek said:

Loxia is a different beast and it still has a place in FE lens lineup. But I would think that the Batis line will sell more and that Loxia lenses will always be hard to find in stock.

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Agree its a different beast but I was hoping that Zeiss would "focus" its effortst on a Loxia line and fill it out before creating another. Or for that matter never started with Loxia if they weren't committed to it. 3 Touits, 2 Loxia, 2 Batis's. Seems they are very schizophrenic. That's why I sold of my Touits. Just didn't think I would ever see another one in the Fuji mount. In some cases I liked them better than Fuji but having a lens family that is consistent is a big thing to me.

That's why I'm a fan of roadmaps. Even if Batis lenses are great, and I seen no reason not to believe they will be, what focal length after 25 and 85 should I expect next? Same is true for Loxia. Even Touit.

Either that or I will just have to assume that Zeiss needs to be thought of as a niche lens maker. Find one specialty lens from them and after that go back to the OEM for everything else.

I thought differently because of ZM, ZE, and ZF product families that are fairly broad from 15mm to 135mm which is the reasonable range for MF lenses.

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Agree 100%!

This is the reason I sold the Touits and started collecting Canon FD L glass, for the NEX and A7ii. I now have the 24L/1.4, the 50L/1.2, the 85L/1.2, the 300L/4, the 500L/4.5 and the 2 zooms 20-35L/4 and 80-200L/4. I love the similar use-action, feel, look (except for the big white 500) and filter sizing for most of them.

I would have loved to start collecting the Loxia range but was similarly puzzled by the side-step to the Batis.

Old Baldy said:

Steve W said:

JurijTurnsek said:

Loxia is a different beast and it still has a place in FE lens lineup. But I would think that the Batis line will sell more and that Loxia lenses will always be hard to find in stock.

Click to expand...

Agree its a different beast but I was hoping that Zeiss would "focus" its effortst on a Loxia line and fill it out before creating another. Or for that matter never started with Loxia if they weren't committed to it. 3 Touits, 2 Loxia, 2 Batis's. Seems they are very schizophrenic. That's why I sold of my Touits. Just didn't think I would ever see another one in the Fuji mount. In some cases I liked them better than Fuji but having a lens family that is consistent is a big thing to me.

That's why I'm a fan of roadmaps. Even if Batis lenses are great, and I seen no reason not to believe they will be, what focal length after 25 and 85 should I expect next? Same is true for Loxia. Even Touit.

Either that or I will just have to assume that Zeiss needs to be thought of as a niche lens maker. Find one specialty lens from them and after that go back to the OEM for everything else.

I thought differently because of ZM, ZE, and ZF product families that are fairly broad from 15mm to 135mm which is the reasonable range for MF lenses.

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Agree 100%!

This is the reason I sold the Touits and started collecting Canon FD L glass, for the NEX and A7ii. I now have the 24L/1.4, the 50L/1.2, the 85L/1.2, the 300L/4, the 500L/4.5 and the 2 zooms 20-35L/4 and 80-200L/4. I love the similar use-action, feel, look (except for the big white 500) and filter sizing for most of them.

I would have loved to start collecting the Loxia range but was similarly puzzled by the side-step to the Batis.

--
O.B.

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Let's face it - Most users, aka potential buyers, want AF!

Therefore, it's easy to predict that the Batis Line will be the most wanted and where Zeiss will invest more time in development&production; exclusive manual lenses have a major part in Zeiss prestige, but are and will always be a niche product, specially when most of the concurrence, being Sony, third party to come or even Zeiss themselves, either lens or camera enabled, can offer both (auto and manual focusing) worlds.

Don't get me wrong - I love manual focusing, ie, focusing precisely where I want and which I do/use most of the time, but quite honestly, the "fly-by-wire lens" are not so bad anymore, from a sensitive and precision point of view, when compared to their mechanical siblings...

Also one should take into account - or not forget - that in some scenarios AF can be handy, even for the ones that still have "falcon eyes" and "quick focusing fingers"...

So, no surprise for me if the Batis Line begins growing/multiplying much faster than any other Zeiss lens range/family - Remember, third party will not let the A7x sales success pass by without making (and taking a) part of it...

All the best,
Pedro

agree 100% that most users prefer to have the convenience of AF, but Zeiss seemed to be heading down the track of rolling out the seemingly wonderful Loxia ranhe of MF lenses in line with their iconic top end MF history, but then we dont hear anything further on the Loxia line rollout and they start rolling out competitve AF Batis line.

I have no issues with them doing the Batis line, if we just knew where we stand with the Loxia future.

if they intend to grow the Loxia, then I'd start to invest in them, as I prefer this type to the Batis, which appears to be simply an adaption of the OK but cheap feeling Toiuit line, which had little appeal for me.
--
O.B.

Old Baldy said:

agree 100% that most users prefer to have the convenience of AF, but Zeiss seemed to be heading down the track of rolling out the seemingly wonderful Loxia ranhe of MF lenses in line with their iconic top end MF history, but then we dont hear anything further on the Loxia line rollout and they start rolling out competitve AF Batis line.

I have no issues with them doing the Batis line, if we just knew where we stand with the Loxia future.

if they intend to grow the Loxia, then I'd start to invest in them, as I prefer this type to the Batis, which appears to be simply an adaption of the OK but cheap feeling Toiuit line, which had little appeal for me.
--
O.B.

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They've already stated they will keep both and a wide angle Loxia is planned for September.