Your choice for purchaseable image-editing software for digital

Pitchertaker

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Hello all:

Newbie to digital photography. Want opinions on what stars among the galaxy of image software you prefer for image editing that can be bought outright in a box, rather than "rented."

Not very advanced using software of any kind so the product needs to be intuitively designed and accessible for beginners yet advanced enough to permit growth as my experience increases.

Op System: Windows 7 Home.

Links for purchasing suggested products and reasons why you prefer it will be appreciated.

Will be downloading the free software Olympus offers off its website for my new Olympus OM-D EM-1 but want to buy something additional that may offer more features.

Many thanks for your responses.
 
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Solution
Newbie to digital photography. Want opinions on what stars among the galaxy of image software you prefer for image editing
The answers to this question depend very much on how much editing, and what kind(s) of editing, people do.

I see that you intend to shoot raw, which implies that you intend to learn how to get the best out of your images. While Photoshop Elements is reasonably good as an all-round editor it has very limited capabilities for developing raw files: Lightroom (LR) is very much better for adjusting colours, perspective, lens aberrations and many other things.

So that implies that LR is better than PSE: but wait: sometimes you may want to pull out specific areas of an image for special treatment, and there LR...
Or - 1st highlight the text you want to quote in the prior post. 2nd copy that text using the Ctrl-Insert key combination. 3rd, in the edit box for your new post click the "Increase quote level" box in the tool bar at the top (shows a tiny right pointing arrowhead with 3 lines). 4th, paste the selected text with the "Shift-Insert" key combination.

OP = "Original Post"

Kelly
:-D Thank you, too!
 
Do try and get your jpeg files right in the camera before you get carried away with raw.
Everyone should try to get their exposure right in camera regardless of file format (or even of medium). But what "right" means depends on what one wants from the file. There are two principle objectives that are very different from each other:
Not bad advice at all. [Cheeky sod!] If all one wants to do is play around on the computer manipulating raw files then all that is needed is the most basic camera with a good lens, compose, point and shoot.

The best current cameras have blinkies and all kinds of aids to get it right, or as right as possible for the user in the camera.
But that depends on what you mean by "right". My basic point is that the OP needs to understand what "right" means in different situations. Many editing programs are (almost)blind to whether they are working on JPG so the fundamental principles apply equally to raw and JPG.
Try everything. Use everything. Do it well. Those are my general rules.
Which rather contradicts "master JPG first", which is the advice I quarrel with.
 
Do try and get your jpeg files right in the camera before you get carried away with raw.
Everyone should try to get their exposure right in camera regardless of file format (or even of medium). But what "right" means depends on what one wants from the file. There are two principle objectives that are very different from each other:
Not bad advice at all. [Cheeky sod!] If all one wants to do is play around on the computer manipulating raw files then all that is needed is the most basic camera with a good lens, compose, point and shoot.

The best current cameras have blinkies and all kinds of aids to get it right, or as right as possible for the user in the camera.
But that depends on what you mean by "right". My basic point is that the OP needs to understand what "right" means in different situations. Many editing programs are (almost)blind to whether they are working on JPG so the fundamental principles apply equally to raw and JPG.
Try everything. Use everything. Do it well. Those are my general rules.
Which rather contradicts "master JPG first", which is the advice I quarrel with.
That is so much rot. Or you have a very inferior camera. A raw image file is seldom anything like as good as a good camera's jpeg file shot well and the raw requires processing by the user to create a jpeg at the end of it anyway. As often as not the editor create a jpeg in post processing that is not as good as the camera makes.

Good way to test this and good training in post-processing anyhow, is to master shooting jpeg but also shoot raw files. Process both to taste if necessary, which it surely will for the raw file, but compare the two jpeg files after processing the raw.

Frankly, if you cannot get brilliant jpeg files out of a modern digital camera with a minimum of post processing, there is something very wrong with your mastery of the camera.

If however, image manipulation and transformation is your aim, to create an image that is very much different from what the eye sees, or if light is exceptionally difficult or unreliable, I agree entirely that shooting raw files and skilled post processing in a sophisticated program is very desirable and possibly essential.
 
Do try and get your jpeg files right in the camera before you get carried away with raw.
Everyone should try to get their exposure right in camera regardless of file format (or even of medium). But what "right" means depends on what one wants from the file. There are two principle objectives that are very different from each other:
Not bad advice at all. [Cheeky sod!] If all one wants to do is play around on the computer manipulating raw files then all that is needed is the most basic camera with a good lens, compose, point and shoot.

The best current cameras have blinkies and all kinds of aids to get it right, or as right as possible for the user in the camera.
But that depends on what you mean by "right". My basic point is that the OP needs to understand what "right" means in different situations. Many editing programs are (almost)blind to whether they are working on JPG so the fundamental principles apply equally to raw and JPG.
Try everything. Use everything. Do it well. Those are my general rules.
Which rather contradicts "master JPG first", which is the advice I quarrel with.
That is so much rot. Or you have a very inferior camera. A raw image file is seldom anything like as good as a good camera's jpeg file shot well and the raw requires processing by the user to create a jpeg at the end of it anyway. As often as not the editor create a jpeg in post processing that is not as good as the camera makes.
I have an excellent camera. I have camera raw defaults tuned to it and my preferred style of image (usually as natural as possible). That excellent camera has a sensor with 13+ stops of DR; call it 11+ stops of useable DR. In-camera JPGs typically are limited to about 9 stops of DR, so they can't deliver the same as raw in high-contrast light; or if using their expanded DR systems their tonality suffers (in the examples I've seen).

I occasionally hit the RAW+ button on my camera by mistake; I can always recognise the JPGs because they are inferior to my corresponding raw files. No doubt I could spend time fiddling with the camera settings to suit variable circumstances but then that's time wasted when I could be shooting.
 
That is so much rot. Or you have a very inferior camera. A raw image file is seldom anything like as good as a good camera's jpeg file shot well and the raw requires processing by the user to create a jpeg at the end of it anyway. As often as not the editor create a jpeg in post processing that is not as good as the camera makes.
Good way to test this and good training in post-processing anyhow, is to master shooting jpeg but also shoot raw files. Process both to taste if necessary, which it surely will for the raw file, but compare the two jpeg files after processing the raw.

Frankly, if you cannot get brilliant jpeg files out of a modern digital camera with a minimum of post processing, there is something very wrong with your mastery of the camera.

If however, image manipulation and transformation is your aim, to create an image that is very much different from what the eye sees, or if light is exceptionally difficult or unreliable, I agree entirely that shooting raw files and skilled post processing in a sophisticated program is very desirable and possibly essential.
With my EM-1 I can create a raw image and then also immediately create a jpeg of the same image?
 
I have an excellent camera. I have camera raw defaults tuned to it and my preferred style of image (usually as natural as possible). That excellent camera has a sensor with 13+ stops of DR; call it 11+ stops of useable DR. In-camera JPGs typically are limited to about 9 stops of DR, so they can't deliver the same as raw in high-contrast light; or if using their expanded DR systems their tonality suffers (in the examples I've seen).
I occasionally hit the RAW+ button on my camera by mistake; I can always recognise the JPGs because they are inferior to my corresponding raw files. No doubt I could spend time fiddling with the camera settings to suit variable circumstances but then that's time wasted when I could be shooting.

--
---
Gerry
___________________________________________
First camera 1953, first Pentax 1985, first DSLR 2006
http://www.pbase.com/gerrywinterbourne
[email protected]
I concur about creating images "as natural as possible." I liken this to driving a manual, vs. an automatic transmission. Just feels more like "real" driving, especially when engaging the clutch on an incline from a dead stop and preventing rolling into the vehicle behind you!

DR = Dynamic Resolution?
 
Do try and get your jpeg files right in the camera before you get carried away with raw.
Everyone should try to get their exposure right in camera regardless of file format (or even of medium). But what "right" means depends on what one wants from the file. There are two principle objectives that are very different from each other:
Not bad advice at all. [Cheeky sod!] If all one wants to do is play around on the computer manipulating raw files then all that is needed is the most basic camera with a good lens, compose, point and shoot.

The best current cameras have blinkies and all kinds of aids to get it right, or as right as possible for the user in the camera.
But that depends on what you mean by "right". My basic point is that the OP needs to understand what "right" means in different situations. Many editing programs are (almost)blind to whether they are working on JPG so the fundamental principles apply equally to raw and JPG.
Try everything. Use everything. Do it well. Those are my general rules.
Which rather contradicts "master JPG first", which is the advice I quarrel with.
That is so much rot. Or you have a very inferior camera. A raw image file is seldom anything like as good as a good camera's jpeg file shot well and the raw requires processing by the user to create a jpeg at the end of it anyway. As often as not the editor create a jpeg in post processing that is not as good as the camera makes.
If you cannot produce better jpg from a raw file than a SOOC jpg, then you have a magic camera or don't know how to work with raw files.
Good way to test this and good training in post-processing anyhow, is to master shooting jpeg but also shoot raw files. Process both to taste if necessary, which it surely will for the raw file, but compare the two jpeg files after processing the raw.

Frankly, if you cannot get brilliant jpeg files out of a modern digital camera with a minimum of post processing, there is something very wrong with your mastery of the camera.

If however, image manipulation and transformation is your aim, to create an image that is very much different from what the eye sees, or if light is exceptionally difficult or unreliable, I agree entirely that shooting raw files and skilled post processing in a sophisticated program is very desirable and possibly essential.
The aim with raw files should always be to get it as right as possible - not use it as a crutch to fix poor images. I want to get as much as I can from the 14-bit raw file. By starting with an 8-bit jpg, I'm already behind.

Mark
 
If you cannot produce better jpg from a raw file than a SOOC jpg, then you have a magic camera or don't know how to work with raw files.
SOOC Jpeg? Acronym land is so filled with wonder and mystery!
 
If you cannot produce better jpg from a raw file than a SOOC jpg, then you have a magic camera or don't know how to work with raw files.
SOOC Jpeg? Acronym land is so filled with wonder and mystery!
SOOC = Straight Out Of Camera. In other words, the JPG image produced by the camera, no editing on a computer. With enough effort fussing with the settings in the camera many cameras can produce a pretty good JPG, if the light is good. Anybody skilled in RAW development can do even better, but many casual viewers may not notice the difference, depending on how rummy the lighting for the scene was.

All cameras capable of RAW (which includes all ILC) can also save the image as RAW+JPG. So you get both versions of the same image, in separate files. Straight from the camera.

Kelly
 
DR = Dynamic Resolution?
DR = Dynamic Range. This is the range, measured in a ratio of stops (or Exposure Values) from the darkest to the brightest tones. (The term DR is borrowed from audio - it should really be called Tonal Range and indeed it used to be, but we can't turn back the tide). If it were possible to get pure black then DR would be infinite (anything divided by zero) but even in space there's always a tiny amount of light.

DR manifests itself in several ways:

A scene has a range of tones from dark to bright. On a dim, misty morning this might be only a few stops; if the sun is included the DR can be huge. Many typical photographic scenes have a DR of around 8-9 stops: this is part of why SOOC JPGs are usually tuned to about 9 stops.

In high-contrast light it might not be possible to "see" the full DR: either the darkest parts look completely black or the brightest parts look completely white (or both). This is called clipping. Human eyes can see a wide DR; depending on circumstances and the individual it can be 15-20 stops.

In a sensor highlight clipping occurs when a pixel is "full" of photons: this is an absolute limit. Black clipping occurs when noise overwhelms the tiny signal from very low light; there is a pretty hard measurable limit but for practical purposes there's a softer limit that's typical a couple of stops brighter. DxOMark measures the hard limits at both ends and shows the DR for many cameras: the current best have 13-14 stops; so their useable DR is about 11-12 stops.

Viewing devices (screen or print) can't get near pure black nor anything like the brightness of the sun. Their DR, especially some prints) can be as low as 5 or 6 stops and the latest screens perhaps 10 stops. This leads some people to think that there's no point in photos having a wider DR but that's wrong: what we do is map the available range of tones into whatever device we're using.

This diagram illustrates the way scene DR and capture/output DR relate. If the scene DR exceeds to 12 or so stops of the sensor we have to lose something, and as lost detail in the highlights (highlight clipping) usually looks ugly we normally try to avoid that and accept some loss of detail in the darkest shadows.Once we've caught the DR on the sensor we process the file to compress that DR into an output for viewing (usually JPG) without loss of DR. In-camera JPG engines typically discard some of the DR caught on the sensor before compressing what's left. (I haven't shown the final stage to viewing device but imagine it being like a fourth step on the raw side of the diagram with a further stage of compression.

Note that when the scene DR is narrower than about 9 stops nothing is lost at the dark end but shooting JPG can still lose a bit at the bright end.

ed24161d0bbd4221a557998046ff1a9d.jpg

I should stress that this doesn't mean that raw shooting is always good and JPG shooting is always bad. There's a lot more to it than just DR: speed, convenience, journalistic rules etc also come into play. For the majority of photographers shooting JPG is perfectly satisfactory and I wouldn't try to persuade anyone to change from what suits them.

But for anyone who has chosen the raw shooting method I see no benefit (and possible confusion) in learning the different techniques of JPG shooting.



--
---
Gerry
___________________________________________
First camera 1953, first Pentax 1985, first DSLR 2006
[email protected]
 
If you cannot produce better jpg from a raw file than a SOOC jpg, then you have a magic camera or don't know how to work with raw files.
SOOC Jpeg? Acronym land is so filled with wonder and mystery!
SOOC = Straight Out Of Camera. In other words, the JPG image produced by the camera, no editing on a computer. With enough effort fussing with the settings in the camera many cameras can produce a pretty good JPG, if the light is good. Anybody skilled in RAW development can do even better, but many casual viewers may not notice the difference, depending on how rummy the lighting for the scene was.

All cameras capable of RAW (which includes all ILC) can also save the image as RAW+JPG. So you get both versions of the same image, in separate files. Straight from the camera.

Kelly
Thank you for the enlightenment! Om........
 
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Nice illustration, Gerry, thanks.
 
Nice illustration, Gerry, thanks.
I agree that it is a nice illustration, very nice. The difficulty can be that folks assume every scene has DR that is that wide, for the interesting material in the scene. If you are choosy about the lighting in the first place, even JPG can have sufficient DR range for the scene. Depending on the lighting. Plus, extreme DR is necessary for the HDR game. But HDR is not a universal quest. Some folks like dark (blocked in) shadows for more drama.

Kelly
 
I agree that it is a nice illustration, very nice. The difficulty can be that folks assume every scene has DR that is that wide, for the interesting material in the scene. If you are choosy about the lighting in the first place, even JPG can have sufficient DR range for the scene. Depending on the lighting. Plus, extreme DR is necessary for the HDR game. But HDR is not a universal quest. Some folks like dark (blocked in) shadows for more drama.
Kelly
HDR? DPReview needs an acronym page.
 
I agree that it is a nice illustration, very nice. The difficulty can be that folks assume every scene has DR that is that wide, for the interesting material in the scene. If you are choosy about the lighting in the first place, even JPG can have sufficient DR range for the scene. Depending on the lighting. Plus, extreme DR is necessary for the HDR game. But HDR is not a universal quest. Some folks like dark (blocked in) shadows for more drama.

Kelly
HDR? DPReview needs an acronym page.
High Dynamic Range. Most good cameras have several levels of HDR that can be applied to jpeg images, automatically combining several shots either side of the camera's [or your] chosen ideal exposure value into one image that will have lifted shadows and highlights that are not clipped to white. Or most can also compute a similar image from one shot, which is particularly useful for moving subjects.

For raw, three, five or seven shots taken at different exposure levels [automatically or manually] can be combined in post-processing software.

Since you are hell-bent on post-processing, I'm sure you know all of this already and only have difficulty with the language, in which case I apologise for 'teaching grandma to suck eggs' as the saying goes.
 
High Dynamic Range. Most good cameras have several levels of HDR that can be applied to jpeg images, automatically combining several shots either side of the camera's [or your] chosen ideal exposure value into one image that will have lifted shadows and highlights that are not clipped to white. Or most can also compute a similar image from one shot, which is particularly useful for moving subjects.

For raw, three, five or seven shots taken at different exposure levels [automatically or manually] can be combined in post-processing software.

Since you are hell-bent on post-processing, I'm sure you know all of this already and only have difficulty with the language, in which case I apologise for 'teaching grandma to suck eggs' as the saying goes.
No, I don't know all of this and am not embarrassed to admit it. Much more useful to obtain an education by making inquiries of those more knowledgeable than I.

I'm very pleased with the results thus far, and deeply appreciate the kindness and willingness you and others have to offer me insights and understanding. You folks are a friendly and helpful lot.

My goal is to recreate, as faithfully as possible, what I see in images on-site. That, to me, is part of the joy and creative inspiration of photography.
 
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I agree that it is a nice illustration, very nice. The difficulty can be that folks assume every scene has DR that is that wide, for the interesting material in the scene. If you are choosy about the lighting in the first place, even JPG can have sufficient DR range for the scene. Depending on the lighting. Plus, extreme DR is necessary for the HDR game. But HDR is not a universal quest. Some folks like dark (blocked in) shadows for more drama.

Kelly
HDR? DPReview needs an acronym page.
Newbies, ugh :-)

This might help.
 
I agree that it is a nice illustration, very nice. The difficulty can be that folks assume every scene has DR that is that wide, for the interesting material in the scene. If you are choosy about the lighting in the first place, even JPG can have sufficient DR range for the scene. Depending on the lighting. Plus, extreme DR is necessary for the HDR game. But HDR is not a universal quest. Some folks like dark (blocked in) shadows for more drama.

Kelly
HDR? DPReview needs an acronym page.
Newbies, ugh :-)

This might help.
Most excellent! Thank you! :-)
 
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A technical query regarding comments: How do you guys section off quotes before offering comments? Also: What's "OP" mean? Do I need to move to Mayberry? :-D
Just click the cursor where you want to insert a quote and press the 'return' button and start typing. *** I'll insert something above to demonstrate. If you wish to delete text, highlight it and press delete. This is called 'snipping'.

The OP is you, the Original Poster.
Thanks! OP says: "DOH!"
Don't beat yourself up. At least you asked! "OP" means BOTH "Original Post" and "Original Poster". Which one should be clear from the context.
 

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