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Nikon guy has a Sigma question, please

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CrabbyGuy

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I am interested in B&W results that normally require a camera without a Bayer filter over the sensor, e.g., a Leica M Monochrom Typ 246 ($7500 without lenses). Alternatively I have read mainly on astronomy blogs about carefully scraping the Bayer filter off a conventional sensor. (Their motivation seems primarily to increase the light sensitivity of the sensor.)

I saw a mention on DPReview about some software that Sigma brought out that takes advantage of the Foveon sensor's architecture to enhance B&W photos. Could someone tell me if this works well, how the results compare to those from a "debayered" conventional sensor, and if there is a somewhat inexpensive camera (used) that works with this that I could try. Pointing me to an article or two would be helpful as well.

Thanks for your trouble.
 
Sounds like you might like a SD1M Sigma DSLR. The Sigma software (Sigma Photo Pro, known here as SPP) supplied with the camera has a conversion to monochrome which allows playing with the three "color" channels to mix them according to your taste. I mention the SD1M because you can pop out the hot mirror with your thumbnail - giving you instant full-spectrum shooting or IR-only if you stick an IR filter on the lens. (Hot mirror pops right back in for normal shooting, of course). Seen some really good monochrome shots here done that way. Using SPP, I can guarantee you will be producing seriously sharp images in no time at all.

For further adventures, an app called RawDigger lets you export any of the layer captures from the raw image data, so you can pick the best. And, if you like contrast, the export can be sans gamma, all dark and Gothic :-)

Sorry, no links to articles from me. I expect one of the circling sharks here will along shortly to help with that ;-)

SD1Ms are selling for around $800 US, body only, perhaps a grand with a kit lens.

--
Pedantry is not a felony.
Ted
 
Last edited:
xpatUSA said:
Sounds like you might like a SD1M Sigma DSLR. The Sigma software (Sigma Photo Pro, known here as SPP) supplied with the camera has a conversion to monochrome which allows playing with the three "color" channels to mix them according to your taste. I mention the SD1M because you can pop out the hot mirror with your thumbnail
Click to expand...
I can't say I am really impressed with SPP way of doing it, but the files from Sigma are generally exceptionally well detailed, and are good start for anything.

What is hot mirror?
xpatUSA said:
- giving you instant full-spectrum shooting or IR-only if you stick an IR filter on the lens. (Hot mirror pops right back in for normal shooting, of course). Seen some really good monochrome shots here done that way. Using SPP, I can guarantee you will be producing seriously sharp images in no time at all.

For further adventures, an app called RawDigger lets you export any of the layer captures from the raw image data, so you can pick the best. And, if you like contrast, the export can be sans gamma, all dark and Gothic :-)

Sorry, no links to articles from me. I expect one of the circling sharks here will along shortly to help with that ;-)

SD1Ms are selling for around $800 US, body only, perhaps a grand with a kit lens.
Click to expand...
 
CrabbyGuy said:
..

I saw a mention on DPReview about some software that Sigma brought out that takes advantage of the Foveon sensor's architecture to enhance B&W photos. Could someone tell me if this works well, how the results compare to those from a "debayered" conventional sensor, and if there is a somewhat inexpensive camera (used) that works with this that I could try. Pointing me to an article or two would be helpful as well.
Click to expand...
I usually convert files to tiff, and deal with the rest in Silver Efex Pro. This way it works the best for me. As you know, not every frame will work in B&W (as not every frame looks the best in color), so I would never start with B&W in capture.



17302273385_9116068c65_o.jpg




16682014423_73d4e28ef4_o.jpg




17213231851_0f79c151ff_o.jpg


Compared to bayer,



17050273439_e27ba98078_o.jpg




15312555372_62f9246f47_o.jpg




.. and so on, you get the idea.

--
- sergey
 
Why do you call it a hot mirror Ted? Isn't it just an IR filter?
 
Sergey_Green said:
xpatUSA said:
Sounds like you might like a SD1M Sigma DSLR. The Sigma software (Sigma Photo Pro, known here as SPP) supplied with the camera has a conversion to monochrome which allows playing with the three "color" channels to mix them according to your taste. I mention the SD1M because you can pop out the hot mirror with your thumbnail
Click to expand...
I can't say I am really impressed with SPP way of doing it, but the files from Sigma are generally exceptionally well detailed, and are good start for anything.
Click to expand...
Yes, I prefer RawDigger where no conversion is involved at all. Each channel of raw image data can be exported and then manipulated any way you please.
Sergey_Green said:
What is hot mirror?
Click to expand...
"hot mirror" is photographic slang for an IR-blocking filter placed between the lens and the sensor to prevent wavelengths above approx. 650nm from reaching the sensels.
 
Scottelly said:
Why do you call it a hot mirror Ted?
Click to expand...
"hot mirror" (slang) is a common term in photography and is a horrible phrase, IMHO, but I thought it was universally understood . . . until now :-(
Scottelly said:
Isn't it just an IR filter?
Click to expand...
"an IR filter" is insufficiently descriptive and it's very usage here is classically photographic - because it can mean two completely opposite things. Which makes you a true photographer, Scott! Unlike myself, being a photographer/engineer hybrid person.

In the Real World of Engineering where folks actually care about concise descriptions, the said chunk of glass would be called a band-pass filter and would have the type and limits of transmission defined; thus, I would say "a 400-650nm band-pass optical filter".

In the Blurry World of Photography where folks use any terms they care to, we could have at least said "low-pass filter" but, unfortunately and true to form, this term could be confused with it's more common usage to describe the anti-aliasing filter (OLPF) found on many Bayer-pattern sensors.

--
"Photographic terminology sucks" (xpatUSA 2015).
Ted
 
Last edited:
xpatUSA said:
Sergey_Green said:
xpatUSA said:
Sounds like you might like a SD1M Sigma DSLR. The Sigma software (Sigma Photo Pro, known here as SPP) supplied with the camera has a conversion to monochrome which allows playing with the three "color" channels to mix them according to your taste. I mention the SD1M because you can pop out the hot mirror with your thumbnail
Click to expand...
I can't say I am really impressed with SPP way of doing it, but the files from Sigma are generally exceptionally well detailed, and are good start for anything.
Click to expand...
Yes, I prefer RawDigger where no conversion is involved at all. Each channel of raw image data can be exported and then manipulated any way you please.
Click to expand...
Is not RawDigger only analyzer (not a coverter) ?
xpatUSA said:
xpatUSA said:
What is hot mirror?
Click to expand...
"hot mirror" is photographic slang for an IR-blocking filter placed between the lens and the sensor to prevent wavelengths above approx. 650nm from reaching the sensels.
Click to expand...
I am not very familiar with Sigma dSLRs. They have closed mirror chamber as I understand, so you place filter on top of that protective glass?
 
CrabbyGuy said:
I am interested in B&W results that normally require a camera without a Bayer filter over the sensor, e.g., a Leica M Monochrom Typ 246 ($7500 without lenses). Alternatively I have read mainly on astronomy blogs about carefully scraping the Bayer filter off a conventional sensor. (Their motivation seems primarily to increase the light sensitivity of the sensor.)

I saw a mention on DPReview about some software that Sigma brought out that takes advantage of the Foveon sensor's architecture to enhance B&W photos. Could someone tell me if this works well, how the results compare to those from a "debayered" conventional sensor, and if there is a somewhat inexpensive camera (used) that works with this that I could try. Pointing me to an article or two would be helpful as well.

Thanks for your trouble.
Click to expand...
The inexpensive route would be the SD14/15, you can buy them cheaply on ebay, especially the SD14 and see how the lack of interpolation works. They're 4mp but give you the effective resolution of around 12-16mp (depends on the lens). The more expensive route would be the SD1, which is much higher resolution, but black and white will look very similar on all those models outside of resolution differences. Of course you can pop out the dust protector/IR filter on all three and shoot infrared and then convert to mono, they are great for that. In fact you can do that "modification"out in the field, which makes them unique in that respect. If you quickly convert the raw files in Sigma Photo Pro and then edit them in Nik Silver Efex you can get excellent results.
 
Sergey_Green said:
xpatUSA said:
Sergey_Green said:
xpatUSA said:
Sounds like you might like a SD1M Sigma DSLR. The Sigma software (Sigma Photo Pro, known here as SPP) supplied with the camera has a conversion to monochrome which allows playing with the three "color" channels to mix them according to your taste. I mention the SD1M because you can pop out the hot mirror with your thumbnail
Click to expand...
I can't say I am really impressed with SPP way of doing it, but the files from Sigma are generally exceptionally well detailed, and are good start for anything.
Click to expand...
Yes, I prefer RawDigger where no conversion is involved at all. Each channel of raw image data can be exported and then manipulated any way you please.
Click to expand...
Is not RawDigger only analyzer (not a coverter) ?
Click to expand...
Not quite:

Loading…

www.rawdigger.com
Sergey_Green said:
Sergey_Green said:
Sergey_Green said:
What is hot mirror?
Click to expand...
"hot mirror" is photographic slang for an IR-blocking filter placed between the lens and the sensor to prevent wavelengths above approx. 650nm from reaching the sensels.
Click to expand...
I am not very familiar with Sigma dSLRs. They have closed mirror chamber as I understand, so you place filter on top of that protective glass?
Click to expand...
All Sigma DSLRs come with what they call a "dust cover" just below the lens mount - you do not place anything on top of it. This dust cover has a glass, of course, and is also an approx. 400-650nm optical band-pass filter. It can be easily removed, which allows every wavelength passed by the lens to be incident upon the sensor. The sensor is sensitive from approx 280nm UV up to 1100nm near-IR. Therefore, so-called "full-spectrum" shots can be made. Placing a 720nm optical high-pass filter, e.g. Hoya, on the lens allows IR-only photography because no UV or visible light reaches the sensor.

Hope this helps.
 
xpatUSA said:
All Sigma DSLRs come with what they call a "dust cover" just below the lens mount - you do not place anything on top of it. This dust cover has a glass, of course, and is also an approx. 400-650nm optical band-pass filter. It can be easily removed, which allows every wavelength passed by the lens to be incident upon the sensor. The sensor is sensitive from approx 280nm UV up to 1100nm near-IR. Therefore, so-called "full-spectrum" shots can be made. Placing a 720nm optical high-pass filter, e.g. Hoya, on the lens allows IR-only photography because no UV or visible light reaches the sensor.
Click to expand...
I see now. Thanks.
 
CrabbyGuy said:
I am interested in B&W results that normally require a camera without a Bayer filter over the sensor, e.g., a Leica M Monochrom Typ 246 ($7500 without lenses). Alternatively I have read mainly on astronomy blogs about carefully scraping the Bayer filter off a conventional sensor. (Their motivation seems primarily to increase the light sensitivity of the sensor.)

I saw a mention on DPReview about some software that Sigma brought out that takes advantage of the Foveon sensor's architecture to enhance B&W photos. Could someone tell me if this works well, how the results compare to those from a "debayered" conventional sensor, and if there is a somewhat inexpensive camera (used) that works with this that I could try. Pointing me to an article or two would be helpful as well.

Thanks for your trouble.
Click to expand...
Check out this article from The Online Photographer: http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2014/03/the-sigma-dp2-merrill.html

I think it covers one of the reasons that Sigma does so well with black and white photos.
 
xpatUSA said:
Sergey_Green said:
xpatUSA said:
Sounds like you might like a SD1M Sigma DSLR. The Sigma software (Sigma Photo Pro, known here as SPP) supplied with the camera has a conversion to monochrome which allows playing with the three "color" channels to mix them according to your taste. I mention the SD1M because you can pop out the hot mirror with your thumbnail
Click to expand...
I can't say I am really impressed with SPP way of doing it, but the files from Sigma are generally exceptionally well detailed, and are good start for anything.
Click to expand...
Yes, I prefer RawDigger where no conversion is involved at all. Each channel of raw image data can be exported and then manipulated any way you please.
Click to expand...
And if you want B&W there is no point in using any but the top layer. (Which is panchromatic).
 
The Merrill sensor is most excellent for B&W. The DP2M produces output files remarkably similar to the Leica Monochrom up to about ISO 400.

Once the ISO starts to rise use just the top (blue) layer and results match the Leica Monochrome up to ISO 3200.

At 6400 the Monochrome is less than a stop better than the Merrill. Converting from just the blue layer is easily accomplished in SPP the RAW conversion software packaged with the camera.

If you buy one of the DP merills they produce these results for around $700.

(for B&W the Merrill sensor outperforms the Quatro sensor)

Reference articles? Subscribe to Reid Reviews. Excellent articles, very reasonable price, great customer service. If you buy a camera, consider buying a camera or think about considering to buy a camera it pays you back.
 
CrabbyGuy said:
I am interested in B&W results that normally require a camera without a Bayer filter over the sensor, e.g., a Leica M Monochrom Typ 246 ($7500 without lenses). Alternatively I have read mainly on astronomy blogs about carefully scraping the Bayer filter off a conventional sensor. (Their motivation seems primarily to increase the light sensitivity of the sensor.)

I saw a mention on DPReview about some software that Sigma brought out that takes advantage of the Foveon sensor's architecture to enhance B&W photos. Could someone tell me if this works well, how the results compare to those from a "debayered" conventional sensor, and if there is a somewhat inexpensive camera (used) that works with this that I could try. Pointing me to an article or two would be helpful as well.

Thanks for your trouble.
Click to expand...
Get the Ricoh GR. Read this : http://thephotofundamentalist.com/?p=1522
 
Last edited:
papillon_65 said:
CrabbyGuy said:
I am interested in B&W results that normally require a camera without a Bayer filter over the sensor, e.g., a Leica M Monochrom Typ 246 ($7500 without lenses). Alternatively I have read mainly on astronomy blogs about carefully scraping the Bayer filter off a conventional sensor. (Their motivation seems primarily to increase the light sensitivity of the sensor.)

I saw a mention on DPReview about some software that Sigma brought out that takes advantage of the Foveon sensor's architecture to enhance B&W photos. Could someone tell me if this works well, how the results compare to those from a "debayered" conventional sensor, and if there is a somewhat inexpensive camera (used) that works with this that I could try. Pointing me to an article or two would be helpful as well.

Thanks for your trouble.
Click to expand...
The inexpensive route would be the SD14/15, you can buy them cheaply on ebay, especially the SD14 and see how the lack of interpolation works. They're 4mp but give you the effective resolution of around 12-16mp (depends on the lens). The more expensive route would be the SD1, which is much higher resolution, but black and white will look very similar on all those models outside of resolution differences. Of course you can pop out the dust protector/IR filter on all three and shoot infrared and then convert to mono, they are great for that. In fact you can do that "modification"out in the field, which makes them unique in that respect. If you quickly convert the raw files in Sigma Photo Pro and then edit them in Nik Silver Efex you can get excellent results.
Click to expand...
 
I don't see the term "hot mirror" used that much myself but I have seen it used extensively on DPR forums on two occasions. The first was when the Nikon D2H came out with its unique Nikon only sensor that caused a lot of controversy at the time. There was a great deal of talk about the use of hot mirror filters then as people tried various things to improve the camera. The second was the Leica M8 where Leica had needed to keep the sensor filter stack thin to which resulted in a rather weak IR block filter. There was a lot of talk about about external "hot mirror" filters then as well.

I get the impression that the term in simultaneously well understood and obscure!

xpatUSA said:
Scottelly said:
Why do you call it a hot mirror Ted?
Click to expand...
"hot mirror" (slang) is a common term in photography and is a horrible phrase, IMHO, but I thought it was universally understood . . . until now :-(
xpatUSA said:
Isn't it just an IR filter?
Click to expand...
"an IR filter" is insufficiently descriptive and it's very usage here is classically photographic - because it can mean two completely opposite things. Which makes you a true photographer, Scott! Unlike myself, being a photographer/engineer hybrid person.

In the Real World of Engineering where folks actually care about concise descriptions, the said chunk of glass would be called a band-pass filter and would have the type and limits of transmission defined; thus, I would say "a 400-650nm band-pass optical filter".

In the Blurry World of Photography where folks use any terms they care to, we could have at least said "low-pass filter" but, unfortunately and true to form, this term could be confused with it's more common usage to describe the anti-aliasing filter (OLPF) found on many Bayer-pattern sensors.
Click to expand...
 
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