Simple, secondhand, Leica kit?

yardcoyote

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Me: Mid 50s, extensive but quite narrow experience with film (shot for 25+ years with a Pentax K1000 SE and 50 and 85mm primes, strictly street, walkaround, informal portraits in available light, primarily in black and white (Tri-X) with some drugstore color print film), took a long hiatus from photography at the end of the film era, then returned three years ago and took up digital. Am amazed by what modern cameras can do, but am disappointed with the shooting experience they provide. I have no rangefinder experience.

Looking for: a small (though not pocket sized), sturdy "daily driver" camera with a good viewfinder--OVF much preferred-- a good prime lens, preferably in the 40-55mm range, and the best, most involving shooting experience possible. I want a camera to have fun with, that offers the same level of full but simple control that I had with the old Pentax. No control wheels, and as few menus as humanly possible. I just want to do what I was doing on film (see above) with a digital camera.

Considering: Most of my major options seem to be from Fuji, since they offer the best controls I have been able to try. I'm considering the X100T, obviously-- if it offered a longer lens without the complications of a screw on accessory, I would probably already have one. I'm also weighing the merits of several of the interchangeable lens bodies and various lenses in the X system, while awaiting with interest the new 35mm f/2 which is supposed to arrive later this year. This lens combined with an XPro body might be a strong contender if it's as good optically as the other lenses in the series.

Oddly enough, I am also considering an Olympus EM-10 with the Oly 25mm f/1.8-- despite its modern controls and EVF, this is a solid and appealing little package at a relatively modest price that would be a very decent placeholder as I wait for something new.

Leica?: I ran through my list of criteria in my mind recently on a long car trip and realized that I probably am a prime candidate for a Leica if there was some way to get around the price issue. I honestly had never considered a Leica before except to promise myself a Monochrom if I ever had a financial windfall.

But now I'm wondering

1) is it possible to assemble a good, reliable secondhand Leica body and a high quality secondhand 50mm lens at a price that is even remotely competitive with other options?

2) how difficult would it be for someone with only SLR experience to learn to use a proper rangefinder? I am particularly concerned about focus-- I was deadly fast focusing the manual primes on the old Pentax, but that was with a split image focusing screen.

3) would the quality of the secondhand Leica kit, both in IQ and shooting experience, be so much better than the alternatives to justify the cost?

I understand that the answers to all these questions are subjective, but you know a lot more about the subject than I do. Thank you ahead of time for any opinions you have to offer.
 
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I'll cut to the part where you ask about learning to use a rangefinder as opposed to an SLR.

One of two things happens when you pick it up. You either take to it immediately or it takes a little learning or practice. Either way it is a different experience.

Now back up to Olympus. I shoot Olympus as well. It is apples and oranges to Leica Rangefinder. Totally different experience. I don't think you can assemble a worthwhile Leica setup for,anything close to the price of the others. In a list of qualifications price should be somewhere at the bottom of consideration criteria. That is my opinion. The use and feeling of the camera would be at the top of the list.

Simple second hand kit: any Leica digital full frame body with a 35 or 50mm lens. There are some good deals out there for these.
 
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I'm afraid price is an extremely important criterion for me. I'd very much like to put it further down on the list (where I'm sure it belongs) but facts must be faced.

I have been looking at secondhand M8 bodies-- this seems to be a well respected older body from what I've been reading around-- but I don't have a clue which used lenses I should be looking it to get the best value.

Prices for a few combos I've looked at (some with used versions of newer bodies and Leica lenses) range from "quite a nice FF DSLR" to "excuse me while I swallow my tongue". Somewhere in the mid range is "more than I paid for my car".

I think I may be in over my head just thinking about this.
 
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If you want a rangefinder experience on the cheap, the M8 with a Zeiss 35mm f2 is not that bad. The Summicron 40 is another candidate. You need an IR/UC cut filter for any lens you buy.

The M8 has an APS-H sensor, so multiply the lens by 1.33 to get the apparent full-frame equivalent.

Note, the M8 has its limitations, but can provide surprising results if you understand the limits.

That's about as cheap as it gets without going to a film camera.
 
I'm afraid price is an extremely important criterion for me. I'd very much like to put it further down on the list (where I'm sure it belongs) but facts must be faced.

I have been looking at secondhand M8 bodies-- this seems to be a well respected older body from what I've been reading around-- but I don't have a clue which used lenses I should be looking it to get the best value.

Prices for a few combos I've looked at (some with used versions of newer bodies and Leica lenses) range from "quite a nice FF DSLR" to "excuse me while I swallow my tongue". Somewhere in the mid range is "more than I paid for my car".

I think I may be in over my head just thinking about this.
For the M8 start with a 28mm or 35mm lens. Remember to multiply the lens by 1.33 to get the equivalent size in FF.

Zeiss offers some excellent lenses for under $1,000.

Voigtlander is an inexpensive alternative => Voigtlander Nokton Classic 35mm f/1.4 $630

An M8 camera will set you back about $1500 to $2000.

If you don't like it you can flip it for what you paid for. Buying from a reputable dealer is a plus (i.e., B&H, Adorama, KEH, etc.).
 
Neat! Thanks. I knew the M8 was a crop sensor, but hadn't gotten the crop factor straight.
 
I think good M8's can be found for as little as $1000. That's about what I expect to get for mine in excellent condition when finally get off my duff and upgrade to an M240 (hush JD). I have a 28 Elmarit and a 50 Summicron and that seems pretty much ok for my shooting on the crop sensor, and that's from a guy with about 6 Nikon zooms in the cabinet.

Rangefinders are different. As a recent convert from Nikon myself, I agree that you will either love the things or hate them. Regarding the Leica's, if you are interested in long lenses, high ISO, or advanced features, move along, there's noting to see here. :)

In view of the price tag, I think it's important to honestly evaluate where you are on the photography totem pole. If you are only interested in the finished produce, there's a lot of easier and cheaper ways to reach excellent quality.

On the other hand, if you're like me and just enjoy mucking about with finely crafted bits of equipment, a Leica might be just the ticket to induce you to actually get out and make more photographs.

In my view, what you are really looking at here is whether you will enjoy the experience of using a rangefinder Leica enough to suffer the cost premium. As the investment involved is substantial, I strongly suggest you rent a body/lens combo from lensrentals.com and find out the easy way.

--
http://www.nightstreets.com
-
"Sick cultures show a complex of symptoms such as you have named...but a dying culture invariable exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners is more significant than a riot."
This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health but as proof of his/her strength. ...Friday, it is too late to save this culture--this worldwide culture... Therefore we must now prepare the monasteries for the coming Dark Age. Electronic records are too fragile..."
--Robert A. Heinlein in "Friday"
 
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The Leica pricing is what it is. It's never likely to change. They are not mainstream. It is not for the faint of heart even when buying older items.

If price is a major factor the angst may cloud the experience. You'll be wondering forever if you spent too much and it may interfere with the experience.

An M-8 and older Summicron 35 or 50 may quell the appetite but beware...........if you get hooked.
 
The rental advice is sound, I think. I am definitely in this for the shooting experience/ messing around factor-if someone made a modern digital SLR equivalent to the Leica rangefinder I would probably already have one. I agree with your basic premise: if it was all about the finished product, my current gear would be fine.
 
The rental advice is sound, I think. I am definitely in this for the shooting experience/ messing around factor-if someone made a modern digital SLR equivalent to the Leica rangefinder I would probably already have one. I agree with your basic premise: if it was all about the finished product, my current gear would be fine.
Think about it this way. Figure even if you dump $10,000 grand in a top end body and two excellent lenses, based on a 4 year cycle that's still less than $300/month on entertainment that won't get you arrested. (argument didn't work real hot on the wife, but what the hell, maybe you'll have better luck) :)
 
All good advice. Thanks. I need to remember that there are other brands of lens-- there is much research to be done.
 
Me: Mid 50s, extensive but quite narrow experience with film (shot for 25+ years with a Pentax K1000 SE and 50 and 85mm primes, strictly street, walkaround, informal portraits in available light, primarily in black and white (Tri-X) with some drugstore color print film), took a long hiatus from photography at the end of the film era, then returned three years ago and took up digital. Am amazed by what modern cameras can do, but am disappointed with the shooting experience they provide. I have no rangefinder experience.

Looking for: a small (though not pocket sized), sturdy "daily driver" camera with a good viewfinder--OVF much preferred-- a good prime lens, preferably in the 40-55mm range, and the best, most involving shooting experience possible. I want a camera to have fun with, that offers the same level of full but simple control that I had with the old Pentax. No control wheels, and as few menus as humanly possible. I just want to do what I was doing on film (see above) with a digital camera.

Considering: Most of my major options seem to be from Fuji, since they offer the best controls I have been able to try. I'm considering the X100T, obviously-- if it offered a longer lens without the complications of a screw on accessory, I would probably already have one. I'm also weighing the merits of several of the interchangeable lens bodies and various lenses in the X system, while awaiting with interest the new 35mm f/2 which is supposed to arrive later this year. This lens combined with an XPro body might be a strong contender if it's as good optically as the other lenses in the series.

Oddly enough, I am also considering an Olympus EM-10 with the Oly 25mm f/1.8-- despite its modern controls and EVF, this is a solid and appealing little package at a relatively modest price that would be a very decent placeholder as I wait for something new.

Leica?: I ran through my list of criteria in my mind recently on a long car trip and realized that I probably am a prime candidate for a Leica if there was some way to get around the price issue. I honestly had never considered a Leica before except to promise myself a Monochrom if I ever had a financial windfall.

But now I'm wondering

1) is it possible to assemble a good, reliable secondhand Leica body and a high quality secondhand 50mm lens at a price that is even remotely competitive with other options?

2) how difficult would it be for someone with only SLR experience to learn to use a proper rangefinder? I am particularly concerned about focus-- I was deadly fast focusing the manual primes on the old Pentax, but that was with a split image focusing screen.

3) would the quality of the secondhand Leica kit, both in IQ and shooting experience, be so much better than the alternatives to justify the cost?

I understand that the answers to all these questions are subjective, but you know a lot more about the subject than I do. Thank you ahead of time for any opinions you have to offer.
You haven't said what your budget is. You could buy an M8 and a 28 or 35 lens.

However, rangefinder photography is very different to SLR photography. Most digital cameras do entail control wheels - either accept that or stick with film.

Consider also a Canon 5D body and a Leica R lens. Control wheel for shutter speed only.
 
There are some cheap options to have a taste of Leica. M8 plus 40mm Summicron C will cost you less than US$2.000. You can also buy a X2 or X-Vario for less than that.

It is true that if you do like it, the camara could be sold with little loss, but nobody warned you of the biggest danger. You risk being contaminated with the Leica virus. This will mean serious consequences for your wallet.
 
I gather that I run the risk of becoming addicted (you're the second person to mention that)... it's a fair warning, especially when I priced out a full kit of new gear (body and two primes) and hit $10K without breaking a sweat.
 
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Actually you can get a Fuji with a traditional control setup, but otherwise you are right so far as I can tell. This has been puzzling to me ever since I went digital, but there you go.
 
Wouldn't work on the Other Old Pentaxian either, I'm sure.
 
Yup, +1 for all those M8 recommendations, but beware if you need to get it serviced, as some parts are now unavailable-LCD springs to mind. I bought one new 4 years ago and got hooked, and soon went to an M9, but the M8 can deliver stunningly sharp pictures, and is a great B&W camera to boot when used without IR-cut filters.

It's not a rangefinder, but if you wanted a Fuji-related experience, how about an X100S? From all accounts a fine P&S cam that apes a RF, but has very good autofocus lens....and the price is right?

Cheers,

Rob
 
Thinking about all of the X100 series, but I think at this point I'd spring for the T-- I think the few improvements are enough to sway me since I'd really want to keep the camera long term. The only reason I haven't already got one is the 35mm equivalent lens-- in a perfect world I 'd prefer a 45 or 50, and the Fuji accessory lens doesn't cut it for me, being large, expensive, and fragile. I am permanently skeptical of extra glass and an extra screw on connection.

Waiting on the 35mm f/2 lens and possible new XPro body before deciding which Fuji if I decide to go that way.

It's not so much a rangefinder experience I'm looking for as a camera with traditional manual controls (including an aperture ring on the lens) and an OVF. Manual focus with proper focusing aids would be a righteous bonus. Right now all the options seem to be in the rangefinder form factor. If anyone made a small DSLR with a big pentaprism, controls like that and a nice small prime or two, I would already be happy. Such cameras were common as dirt in the film era. We had Pentax K and M bodies at our house, other people had Nikons, Canons, Olympuses-- you could pick any of them up and just use them.
 
I gather that I run the risk of becoming addicted (you're the second person to mention that)... it's a fair warning, especially when I priced out a full kit of new gear (body and two primes) and hit $10K without breaking a sweat.
Oh hell no. $10k is just a deposit.
 
There is a company called KatzEye optics that makes focusing screens with split-prism focusing aids, for retrofitting to a range of DSLRs, just like in the good old days of OVFs. Focus-peaking on DSLRs is the modern equivalent I guess, and works very well on Olympus E-M1 when coupled with 12-40 and 40-150 lenses that have the snap-out manual focus ring.

Rob
 

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