Successor to the SD1?

mikeodial · May 25, 2015

I am new to the Sigma Merrill clan, but am finding myself spending nearly all my time on the Merrill pictures versus my Pentax ones. Now seeing the "Pentax" look as another tool in the shed rather than the "go to" for everything. Meanwhile, addiction to the Merrill look has settled in.

I have an DP2M but am now considering a SD1 with an 18-35 Art for landscape. (That would seem to match the quality of the sensor well enough to get the amazing output of the DP2M.)

Do you think Sigma will continue to develop the SLR, or introduce an interchangeable Mirrorless camera as a follow on to the SD1?

Would I be better just waiting for the Q0?

In the meantime I am saving my dollars for the Pentax FF if it turns out to be a worthwhile upgrade to the K3. (That is a separate decision). I have a bunch of FF Pentax lenses (4) which would be great for the times I need low light, fast autofocus etc. There doesn't seem to be a way to use the Pentax glass without butchering it, which I am unwilling to do.

Thoughts?

maceoQ · May 25, 2015

According to Yamaki san (CEO Sigma), there will be a new DSLR with the Quattro sensor.
But be sure you like the different look of Quattro compared to the Merrill sensor.

The 18-35mm Art is a very sharp lens but still can't match the output of the DP2m by a visible amount. But it is comparable to the DP1m which is a bit behind the extraordinary DP2m lens.
Lets hope, Sigma will finally offer something like a new 10-20mm "A" or 12-24mm "A" lens for the SD1.

I'm pretty sure, the DP0Q will be the best wide angle option for Foveon. I wish it would come with the Merrill sensor.

mikeodial said:
I am new to the Sigma Merrill clan, but am finding myself spending nearly all my time on the Merrill pictures versus my Pentax ones. Now seeing the "Pentax" look as another tool in the shed rather than the "go to" for everything. Meanwhile, addiction to the Merrill look has settled in.

I have an DP2M but am now considering a SD1 with an 18-35 Art for landscape. (That would seem to match the quality of the sensor well enough to get the amazing output of the DP2M.)

Do you think Sigma will continue to develop the SLR, or introduce an interchangeable Mirrorless camera as a follow on to the SD1?

Would I be better just waiting for the Q0?

In the meantime I am saving my dollars for the Pentax FF if it turns out to be a worthwhile upgrade to the K3. (That is a separate decision). I have a bunch of FF Pentax lenses (4) which would be great for the times I need low light, fast autofocus etc. There doesn't seem to be a way to use the Pentax glass without butchering it, which I am unwilling to do.

Thoughts?

mikeodial · May 25, 2015

maceoQ said:
According to Yamaki san (CEO Sigma), there will be a new DSLR with the Quattro sensor.
But be sure you like the different look of Quattro compared to the Merrill sensor.

The 18-35mm Art is a very sharp lens but still can't match the output of the DP2m by a visible amount. But it is comparable to the DP1m which is a bit behind the extraordinary DP2m lens.
Lets hope, Sigma will finally offer something like a new 10-20mm "A" or 12-24mm "A" lens for the SD1.

I'm pretty sure, the DP0Q will be the best wide angle option for Foveon. I wish it would come with the Merrill sensor.

mikeodial said:

I am new to the Sigma Merrill clan, but am finding myself spending nearly all my time on the Merrill pictures versus my Pentax ones. Now seeing the "Pentax" look as another tool in the shed rather than the "go to" for everything. Meanwhile, addiction to the Merrill look has settled in.

I have an DP2M but am now considering a SD1 with an 18-35 Art for landscape. (That would seem to match the quality of the sensor well enough to get the amazing output of the DP2M.)

Do you think Sigma will continue to develop the SLR, or introduce an interchangeable Mirrorless camera as a follow on to the SD1?

Would I be better just waiting for the Q0?

In the meantime I am saving my dollars for the Pentax FF if it turns out to be a worthwhile upgrade to the K3. (That is a separate decision). I have a bunch of FF Pentax lenses (4) which would be great for the times I need low light, fast autofocus etc. There doesn't seem to be a way to use the Pentax glass without butchering it, which I am unwilling to do.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Oh, this is a revelation to me then. So the Merrill sensor I have come to love in the last week is history? It will not be the same rendering as the one I have in my DP2M.

That being the case, the SD1 might become a digital collectors item then I guess, as the rendering is close to/the same as the DP series. Do I have this correct?

maceoQ · May 25, 2015

mikeodial said:
mikeodial said:

Oh, this is a revelation to me then. So the Merrill sensor I have come to love in the last week is history?

Click to expand...

Unfortunately yes, but nobody knows how the successor of the Quattro sensor will look like.
Maybe they come back to the 1:1:1 "true foveon" ;-) structure, maybe full frame...
But for now, it's the last chance to get the DP3 Merrill, "the Holy Grail" of the Merrill cameras :-D

mikeodial said:
That being the case, the SD1 might become a digital collectors item then I guess, as the rendering is close to/the same as the DP series. Do I have this correct?

It might well be. But people have short memories, maybe after 1-2 years, they like the "punchy", noisy Quattro output and have forgotten the unique Merrill rendering.
I decided not to sell my Sigma gear, even if i would go for a FF Nikon/Sony system in the future.

mike earussi · May 25, 2015

mikeodial said:
Oh, this is a revelation to me then. So the Merrill sensor I have come to love in the last week is history? It will not be the same rendering as the one I have in my DP2M.

Sigma decide to trade a slight increase in resolution, faster processing time, and somewhat better color for the very high microcontrast that the Merrill was known for. Not everyone was happy with this decision--including me.

Many here would have preferred Sigma to just improve the Merrill's processing time and buffer size instead of scrapping it for a whole new design.

mikeodial said:
That being the case, the SD1 might become a digital collectors item then I guess, as the rendering is close to/the same as the DP series. Do I have this correct?

A distinct possibility. As there are no more Merrill chips being made, those cameras that have them will eventually no longer be available, so get them while you can.

FujLiver · May 25, 2015

mikeodial said:
I am new to the Sigma Merrill clan, but am finding myself spending nearly all my time on the Merrill pictures versus my Pentax ones. Now seeing the "Pentax" look as another tool in the shed rather than the "go to" for everything. Meanwhile, addiction to the Merrill look has settled in.

I have an DP2M but am now considering a SD1 with an 18-35 Art for landscape. (That would seem to match the quality of the sensor well enough to get the amazing output of the DP2M.)

Do you think Sigma will continue to develop the SLR, or introduce an interchangeable Mirrorless camera as a follow on to the SD1?

Would I be better just waiting for the Q0?

In the meantime I am saving my dollars for the Pentax FF if it turns out to be a worthwhile upgrade to the K3. (That is a separate decision). I have a bunch of FF Pentax lenses (4) which would be great for the times I need low light, fast autofocus etc. There doesn't seem to be a way to use the Pentax glass without butchering it, which I am unwilling to do.

Thoughts?

Sigma will no doubt have a replacement to the SD1 at some point

as Sigmas best lenses are all for DSLRs it will continue to release DSLRs until it's lens base is changed

Ceistinne · May 25, 2015

mike earussi said:
mikeodial said:

Oh, this is a revelation to me then. So the Merrill sensor I have come to love in the last week is history? It will not be the same rendering as the one I have in my DP2M.

Click to expand...

Sigma decide to trade a slight increase in resolution, faster processing time, and somewhat better color for the very high microcontrast that the Merrill was known for. Not everyone was happy with this decision--including me.

Many here would have preferred Sigma to just improve the Merrill's processing time and buffer size instead of scrapping it for a whole new design.

mike earussi said:

That being the case, the SD1 might become a digital collectors item then I guess, as the rendering is close to/the same as the DP series. Do I have this correct?

Click to expand...

A distinct possibility. As there are no more Merrill chips being made, those cameras that have them will eventually no longer be available, so get them while you can.

Mike,

Has it been confirmed by Sigma that more Merrill chips are being made.?

S

mike earussi · May 25, 2015

Ceistinne said:
mike earussi said:

mikeodial said:

Oh, this is a revelation to me then. So the Merrill sensor I have come to love in the last week is history? It will not be the same rendering as the one I have in my DP2M.

Click to expand...

Sigma decide to trade a slight increase in resolution, faster processing time, and somewhat better color for the very high microcontrast that the Merrill was known for. Not everyone was happy with this decision--including me.

Many here would have preferred Sigma to just improve the Merrill's processing time and buffer size instead of scrapping it for a whole new design.

Ceistinne said:

That being the case, the SD1 might become a digital collectors item then I guess, as the rendering is close to/the same as the DP series. Do I have this correct?

Click to expand...

A distinct possibility. As there are no more Merrill chips being made, those cameras that have them will eventually no longer be available, so get them while you can.

Click to expand...

Mike,

Has it been confirmed by Sigma that more Merrill chips are being made.?

AFAIK no more Merrill chips will be produced. My understanding is that they've switched entirely to the Q design. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of Sigma's inner workings will correct me, but until then my suggestion would be that if you're wanting to buy a new Merrill camera now would be the time to do so.

Ceistinne said:
S

rick decker · May 25, 2015

Well we know there is no full-frame on the horizon and no mirrorless with interchangeable lenses. It would seem that the next DSLR will use the current (Q) sensor. However, Yamaki-sama has not given any indication (that I am aware of) about how he feels about the Q sensor. Sales statistics would tell the story. As of a few months ago, very little work had been done on the DSLR. Probably most of the resources are dealing with the DP0 which they want to get out as quickly as possible. I think the trade-offs to do the Q have been more significant than was expected. If this forum is split on Q vs M, it wouldn't surprise me if there is a dichotomy within Sigma. However depending upon what has been produced and contracted for, they may need to stay on the Q path.

For most manufacturers, camera sales have been on a downslide for several years:

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html

rf-design · May 26, 2015

mike earussi said:
Ceistinne said:

mike earussi said:

mikeodial said:

Oh, this is a revelation to me then. So the Merrill sensor I have come to love in the last week is history? It will not be the same rendering as the one I have in my DP2M.

Click to expand...

Sigma decide to trade a slight increase in resolution, faster processing time, and somewhat better color for the very high microcontrast that the Merrill was known for. Not everyone was happy with this decision--including me.

Many here would have preferred Sigma to just improve the Merrill's processing time and buffer size instead of scrapping it for a whole new design.

mike earussi said:

That being the case, the SD1 might become a digital collectors item then I guess, as the rendering is close to/the same as the DP series. Do I have this correct?

Click to expand...

A distinct possibility. As there are no more Merrill chips being made, those cameras that have them will eventually no longer be available, so get them while you can.

Click to expand...

Mike,

Has it been confirmed by Sigma that more Merrill chips are being made.?

Click to expand...

AFAIK no more Merrill chips will be produced. My understanding is that they've switched entirely to the Q design. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of Sigma's inner workings will correct me, but until then my suggestion would be that if you're wanting to buy a new Merrill camera now would be the time to do so.

mike earussi said:

S

Click to expand...

In germany the SD1M is now at 839€ and the DP1M jump from 380€ to 650€. I think that the batches of DPxM are first sold out and the SD1M at last but I expect that avaibility of SD1M will not overlap long the SD1Q.

Ceistinne · May 26, 2015

rick decker said:
Well we know there is no full-frame on the horizon and no mirrorless with interchangeable lenses. It would seem that the next DSLR will use the current (Q) sensor. However, Yamaki-sama has not given any indication (that I am aware of) about how he feels about the Q sensor. Sales statistics would tell the story. As of a few months ago, very little work had been done on the DSLR. Probably most of the resources are dealing with the DP0 which they want to get out as quickly as possible. I think the trade-offs to do the Q have been more significant than was expected. If this forum is split on Q vs M, it wouldn't surprise me if there is a dichotomy within Sigma. However depending upon what has been produced and contracted for, they may need to stay on the Q path.

For most manufacturers, camera sales have been on a downslide for several years:

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html

--
It's a tough job living in Hawaii but somebody's got to do it.
http://www.rickdecker.photography
http://www.silveroaksranch.com
http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker

Rick,

If they go exclusively with the Q sensor in a new SD with more powerful processor, Live View, and somewhat better high ISO, the dichotomy would be no more. and indeed it seems more likely that that will be way they will go. I think the Q sensor in my dp2 Q is very nice producing very good colour and detail, and what more would anyone need.

Amadeus21 · May 26, 2015

same to me. Last year I hurried and got a new SD1M in addition with a 18–35 A. In those days I wrote here, that this may be the last chance to get a true 1:1:1 Foveon DSLR ...

mikeodial · May 26, 2015

Amadeus21 said:
same to me. Last year I hurried and got a new SD1M in addition with a 18–35 A. In those days I wrote here, that this may be the last chance to get a true 1:1:1 Foveon DSLR ...

--
Johannes

If you don't mind telling me, how have you enjoyed the SD1 versus other cameras you own?

I am new to the Merrill, just having purchased a DP2M, which I am learning about and really enjoying.

Scottelly · May 26, 2015

rick decker said:
Well we know there is no full-frame on the horizon and no mirrorless with interchangeable lenses. It would seem that the next DSLR will use the current (Q) sensor. However, Yamaki-sama has not given any indication (that I am aware of) about how he feels about the Q sensor. Sales statistics would tell the story. As of a few months ago, very little work had been done on the DSLR. Probably most of the resources are dealing with the DP0 which they want to get out as quickly as possible. I think the trade-offs to do the Q have been more significant than was expected. If this forum is split on Q vs M, it wouldn't surprise me if there is a dichotomy within Sigma. However depending upon what has been produced and contracted for, they may need to stay on the Q path.

For most manufacturers, camera sales have been on a downslide for several years:

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html

I don't believe that general digital camera sales statistics have anything to do with the Merrill or Quattro question Rick. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the sales stats for Sigma have nothing to do with general industry stats either. It could be that they've been selling more cameras each year, while most other companies are selling less.

As far as Quattro sales are concerned, I hope Mr. Yamaki sees that more sales of the Quattro does not necessarily mean that the Merrill sensor design is not ultimately better for peak image quality. In time we will hopefully see a full-frame Merrill sensor. I hope we will see a full-frame Quattro sensor at some point too, further on down the line.

rick decker said:
--
It's a tough job living in Hawaii but somebody's got to do it.
http://www.rickdecker.photography
http://www.silveroaksranch.com
http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker

Scottelly · May 26, 2015

Ceistinne said:
rick decker said:

Well we know there is no full-frame on the horizon and no mirrorless with interchangeable lenses. It would seem that the next DSLR will use the current (Q) sensor. However, Yamaki-sama has not given any indication (that I am aware of) about how he feels about the Q sensor. Sales statistics would tell the story. As of a few months ago, very little work had been done on the DSLR. Probably most of the resources are dealing with the DP0 which they want to get out as quickly as possible. I think the trade-offs to do the Q have been more significant than was expected. If this forum is split on Q vs M, it wouldn't surprise me if there is a dichotomy within Sigma. However depending upon what has been produced and contracted for, they may need to stay on the Q path.

For most manufacturers, camera sales have been on a downslide for several years:

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html

Click to expand...

Tom Schum · May 28, 2015

Amadeus21 said:
same to me. Last year I hurried and got a new SD1M in addition with a 18–35 A. In those days I wrote here, that this may be the last chance to get a true 1:1:1 Foveon DSLR ...

Amadeus21 · May 28, 2015

Hello Mike,

I'm using Sigma DSLR since SD9, as I said the SD1M is actually my camera. Besides of Sigma I'm using a Sony FF A900 with Zeiss lenses. I coming from many years of wet darkroom, many exhibitions.

Generally spoken in comparison Sigma - Bayer, the Foveon sensor (I do not [want] own any Quattro) is something totally different with regard to resolution, color rendering, dynamic range, demands to the lenses and lighting – and very strong with regard to the handling and reability of the results.
In the next week there will be a vernissage with pictures of disabled/handicapped persons at their workplace – and I never would have considered to use a Sigma camera for that job. It was a "one shot" job with only natural lighting (indoor!), the persons not (able) to stand still, and if there would have been the picture of one person unusable, she would have been "huffy" not to be shown in the exhibition.!
This is - as to my long experience – definitely no job with a Sigma (besides the catastrophal software SPP...) In autumn I will have another exhibition with theme of +/- "traces of World War I in Central Europe", and there all pictures will be Sigma.

Although I look at my Sony as one of the best cameras (with pentaprisma and mirror) ever built – after years of Foveon I look at any Bayer pictures as more or less "plastic look", even out of my A900. Just in this days there where an article in a German Pro Magazine saying, that in our days the people get used to want more and more oversaturated pictures - the plastic look of every point&shoot, mobile, private "artist" and so on...

And exactly Foveon refuses to do that.

That's my grain of salt to that theme...

--
Johannes

xpatUSA · May 28, 2015

Tom Schum said:
The Merrill sensor might have pushed the limits of 1:1:1 Foveon a little bit too hard . . .

I agree with that sentiment. Raw Merrill histograms tell the tale only too well.

mikeodial · May 29, 2015

Amadeus21 said:
Hello Mike,

I'm using Sigma DSLR since SD9, as I said the SD1M is actually my camera. Besides of Sigma I'm using a Sony FF A900 with Zeiss lenses. I coming from many years of wet darkroom, many exhibitions.

Generally spoken in comparison Sigma - Bayer, the Foveon sensor (I do not [want] own any Quattro) is something totally different with regard to resolution, color rendering, dynamic range, demands to the lenses and lighting – and very strong with regard to the handling and reability of the results.
In the next week there will be a vernissage with pictures of disabled/handicapped persons at their workplace – and I never would have considered to use a Sigma camera for that job. It was a "one shot" job with only natural lighting (indoor!), the persons not (able) to stand still, and if there would have been the picture of one person unusable, she would have been "huffy" not to be shown in the exhibition.!
This is - as to my long experience – definitely no job with a Sigma (besides the catastrophal software SPP...) In autumn I will have another exhibition with theme of +/- "traces of World War I in Central Europe", and there all pictures will be Sigma.

Although I look at my Sony as one of the best cameras (with pentaprisma and mirror) ever built – after years of Foveon I look at any Bayer pictures as more or less "plastic look", even out of my A900. Just in this days there where an article in a German Pro Magazine saying, that in our days the people get used to want more and more oversaturated pictures - the plastic look of every point&shoot, mobile, private "artist" and so on...

And exactly Foveon refuses to do that.

That's my grain of salt to that theme...

James05 · Jun 1, 2015

Tom Schum said:
You can shoot the Quattro sensor in 1:1:1 Foveon at a resolution of 2704x1808 (4.89 megapixels).

It does better than the SD15 in this mode, with richer rendering and at least one more stop of dynamic range.

The Merrill sensor might have pushed the limits of 1:1:1 Foveon a little bit too hard, leading to less of the fullness seen in the SD15. I think the Quattro is a step forward in 1:1:1 Foveon.

In an age when no one wants such low resolution, Sigma has found a way to continue building and selling it. This is the magic of Quattro. The 4x resolution setting can be seen as something of a compromise but not the low res. I toast the genius of Sigma as I wait anxiously for my DP0Q.

Thank you for that insight. I tried LOW Res RAW mode on myDP2Q and I confirm that I am delighted with the results as well. I now see the magic of Quattro, almost for the first time.

Successor to the SD1?

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