Another "which camera?" eyeroll

agentfx · Apr 28, 2015

Thanks for reading! Long time lurker first post, and its which camera?!?! Oh em gee!

Here's the reason all the articles & research I've done hasn't lead me to a solution. I don't care about video but I supremely care about low light performance, full frame, and I don't mind buying used. That in a budget of <$1200 makes this a conundrum.

I've had lots of camera's, currently have the Sony NEX 5R, and its not good enough in low light. I'm not a noob, but its freakin hard to sort through the noise, pun in tended.

My wife likes to blog (travel and food), she wants me to be the photographer... wants or should I say expects/drafts me into it. Then is not happy when I can't make a dark restaurants/locations look good. I'm always telling her its too dark in here! I'm a pro level photoshop user so I know w/noise how far you can push before the image degrades past acceptable. Need better camera.

I saw a guy with a 5D (mark... couldn't tell) shooting in a dark restaurant and I could see the back of his camera, looks amazing! If I have to save up, I'll save up b/c I know I also will need at least 2 lenes, which I'm not including in that budget.

So new or used, any recommendations? Whats it take to get full frame and good low light performance?

chuxter · Apr 28, 2015

agentfx said:
Thanks for reading! Long time lurker first post, and its which camera?!?! Oh em gee!

Here's the reason all the articles & research I've done hasn't lead me to a solution. I don't care about video but I supremely care about low light performance, full frame, and I don't mind buying used. That in a budget of <$1200 makes this a conundrum.

I've had lots of camera's, currently have the Sony NEX 5R, and its not good enough in low light. I'm not a noob, but its freakin hard to sort through the noise, pun in tended.

My wife likes to blog (travel and food), she wants me to be the photographer... wants or should I say expects/drafts me into it. Then is not happy when I can't make a dark restaurants/locations look good. I'm always telling her its too dark in here! I'm a pro level photoshop user so I know w/noise how far you can push before the image degrades past acceptable. Need better camera.

I saw a guy with a 5D (mark... couldn't tell) shooting in a dark restaurant and I could see the back of his camera, looks amazing! If I have to save up, I'll save up b/c I know I also will need at least 2 lenes, which I'm not including in that budget.

So new or used, any recommendations? Whats it take to get full frame and good low light performance?

Do you know of DxOmark? If not, start using them to compare low-light sensitivity of subject cameras.

The winners are:

Sony A7s [3702 ISO/Score = 87]
Nikon Df [3279/Score = 89]
Nikon D4s [3074 ISO/Score = 89]
Nikon D750 [2956 ISO/Score = 93]
Nikon D610 [2925 ISO/Score = 94]
Nikon D810 [2853 ISO/Score = 97]

Ed B · Apr 28, 2015

agentfx said:
Thanks for reading! Long time lurker first post, and its which camera?!?! Oh em gee!

Here's the reason all the articles & research I've done hasn't lead me to a solution. I don't care about video but I supremely care about low light performance, full frame, and I don't mind buying used. That in a budget of <$1200 makes this a conundrum.

I've had lots of camera's, currently have the Sony NEX 5R, and its not good enough in low light. I'm not a noob, but its freakin hard to sort through the noise, pun in tended.

My wife likes to blog (travel and food), she wants me to be the photographer... wants or should I say expects/drafts me into it. Then is not happy when I can't make a dark restaurants/locations look good. I'm always telling her its too dark in here! I'm a pro level photoshop user so I know w/noise how far you can push before the image degrades past acceptable. Need better camera.

I saw a guy with a 5D (mark... couldn't tell) shooting in a dark restaurant and I could see the back of his camera, looks amazing! If I have to save up, I'll save up b/c I know I also will need at least 2 lenes, which I'm not including in that budget.

So new or used, any recommendations? Whats it take to get full frame and good low light performance?

I don't own a Sony camera so maybe I shouldn't say anything but I'm a little surprised your NEX 5R isn't doing a better job.

In theory the Sony should do as well as any camera with an APS size sensor and you shouldn't have any problems in a restaurant or any area that's not completely dark.

Most of the time, when a person has a camera with an APS size sensor and still has problems in low light, it's not a camera problem, it's a lens problem.

Granted, a full frame camera will do better than a camera with an APS size sensor but buying a fast lens, for your NEX camera, will be a whole lot cheaper and is probably all you need to get the results you want. Plus, you'll be able to keep the small form factor associated with the NEX cameras.

Skipper494 · Apr 28, 2015

My D700 is pretty good in low light and has integral focus drive to use many low priced excellent lenses.

PhotoTeach2 · Apr 28, 2015

chuxter said:
Do you know of DxOmark? If not, start using them to compare low-light sensitivity of subject cameras.

The winners are:

Sony A7s [3702 ISO/Score = 87]

Nikon Df [3279/Score = 89]

Nikon D4s [3074 ISO/Score = 89]

Nikon D750 [2956 ISO/Score = 93]

Nikon D610 [2925 ISO/Score = 94]

Nikon D810 [2853 ISO/Score = 97]

Notice the A7s scores way highest.

And it is a mirrorless so will have more versatility and features than any of the dSLR below, (unless you want to do action/sports AF "tracking").

But I seriously have to wonder if another camera will make a significant difference.

Sorry, but I sense "operator-technique" error.

IF you know what you are doing, you ("I") can make an excellent image with (almost) ANY camera.

trekkeruss · Apr 28, 2015

PhotoTeach2 said:
But I seriously have to wonder if another camera will make a significant difference.

Sorry, but I sense "operator-technique" error.

IF you know what you are doing, you ("I") can make an excellent image with (almost) ANY camera.

I agree.

The food isn't moving. Just use a mini tripod, ISO 100, and a longer exposure.

Jacques Cornell · Apr 28, 2015

chuxter said:
agentfx said:

Thanks for reading! Long time lurker first post, and its which camera?!?! Oh em gee!

Here's the reason all the articles & research I've done hasn't lead me to a solution. I don't care about video but I supremely care about low light performance, full frame, and I don't mind buying used. That in a budget of <$1200 makes this a conundrum.

I've had lots of camera's, currently have the Sony NEX 5R, and its not good enough in low light. I'm not a noob, but its freakin hard to sort through the noise, pun in tended.

My wife likes to blog (travel and food), she wants me to be the photographer... wants or should I say expects/drafts me into it. Then is not happy when I can't make a dark restaurants/locations look good. I'm always telling her its too dark in here! I'm a pro level photoshop user so I know w/noise how far you can push before the image degrades past acceptable. Need better camera.

I saw a guy with a 5D (mark... couldn't tell) shooting in a dark restaurant and I could see the back of his camera, looks amazing! If I have to save up, I'll save up b/c I know I also will need at least 2 lenes, which I'm not including in that budget.

So new or used, any recommendations? Whats it take to get full frame and good low light performance?

Click to expand...

Do you know of DxOmark? If not, start using them to compare low-light sensitivity of subject cameras.

The winners are:

Sony A7s [3702 ISO/Score = 87]

Nikon Df [3279/Score = 89]

Nikon D4s [3074 ISO/Score = 89]

Nikon D750 [2956 ISO/Score = 93]

Nikon D610 [2925 ISO/Score = 94]

Nikon D810 [2853 ISO/Score = 97]

Can any of these be had for <$1200? Maybe used body-only?

--
The way to make a friend is to act like one.
www.jacquescornell.photography

Guidenet · Apr 28, 2015

Skipper494 said:
My D700 is pretty good in low light and has integral focus drive to use many low priced excellent lenses.

My D700 is my favorite low light camera. It might not be at the top of the list. According to DXO, I own two cameras who are better at it. None the less, I somehow prefer that older D700, and used, it's quite a bargain. It has a huge bright optical glass pentaprism viewfinder which is a pleasure to use. Those giant pixels help to create exquisite imagery when I get my part right. Also, it is right up there near the top anyway.

That said, I'm not the biggest fan of low lighting. Photography is about light, not darkness. Moreover, I think good interior or food photography is all about using good flash units done properly. You can light up a ceiling or a wall to spread pretty light around. You can use a more direct lighting for food. The very best interior and architecture photographers learn this early or fall by the wayside. They tend not to rely on "available darkness." I think dim light photography is often more for beginners who have not yet learned how to light a scene.

I'm not talking the average snapshots for Facebook, but quality images for your wife's blog or an advertisement. Good quality lighting, properly applied is often the real key. It's another important tool for your toolbox.

Jacques Cornell · Apr 28, 2015

agentfx said:
I don't care about video but I supremely care about low light performance, full frame, and I don't mind buying used. That in a budget of <$1200 makes this a conundrum.

I've had lots of camera's, currently have the Sony NEX 5R, and its not good enough in low light. I'm not a noob, but its freakin hard to sort through the noise, pun in tended.

What's your current max aperture? Do you have any fast lenses? If you're just using kit zooms, a couple of primes f2 or faster will buy you two stops.

agentfx said:
My wife likes to blog (travel and food), she wants me to be the photographer

A couple of considerations.

1) Are these photos only going online, or do you need to make big prints as well? If the former, you might find that even your Sony pics will look fine full-screen at 1080p on a 24" display up to ISO 3200 if you ETTR and apply a good modern NR tool. DxO Optics Pro 10's PRIME NR feature works wonders while extracting maximum detail.

2) Do you need a fast shutter to stop the motion of people in a restaurant? If not, a tripod or image stabilization might be the answer. Does your Sony body or lens have IS? OTOH, if you really need to shoot at ISO 6400 for a fast shutter, then something like a D7100 ($900) or D7200 ($1,200) might serve you well. They're APS-C, not FF, but they fit your budget, have 24MP, and are only about 2/3 of a stop behind a 5D3 in high-ISO noise. A D750 ($2,000) gets you another stop but blows your budget.

agentfx said:
... wants or should I say expects/drafts me into it. Then is not happy when I can't make a dark restaurants/locations look good. I'm always telling her its too dark in here! I'm a pro level photoshop user so I know w/noise how far you can push before the image degrades past acceptable. Need better camera.

What are you using for NR now? Third-party tools, or DxO, can do a much better job than PS.

agentfx said:
I saw a guy with a 5D (mark... couldn't tell) shooting in a dark restaurant and I could see the back of his camera, looks amazing!

Did you zoom in, or did you just see the whole image at 3"? If the latter, I wouldn't get too excited. ISO 12800 images look great on my MFT camera at 3", but not so much on my 27" display or in a 12"x18" print.

agentfx said:
If I have to save up, I'll save up b/c I know I also will need at least 2 lenes, which I'm not including in that budget.

So new or used, any recommendations? Whats it take to get full frame and good low light performance?

The only FF I can think of that offers really top-notch high ISO performance and fits your budget is a used D700. That said, if you downsample a D7x00 24MP image to the D700's native 12MP, you come out about even. I'd go for the D7x00 for the extra resolution at lower ISO and the assurance of having a brand-new camera.

As a happy low-light MFT shooter, I'd try it first with a couple of fast primes, IS, tripod as needed, and DxO, and I'd make sure to ETTR. 12"x18" prints would be a cinch.

--
The way to make a friend is to act like one.
www.jacquescornell.photography

musicalhell · Apr 29, 2015

Jacques Cornell said:
agentfx said:

I don't care about video but I supremely care about low light performance, full frame, and I don't mind buying used. That in a budget of <$1200 makes this a conundrum.

I've had lots of camera's, currently have the Sony NEX 5R, and its not good enough in low light. I'm not a noob, but its freakin hard to sort through the noise, pun in tended.

Click to expand...

What's your current max aperture? Do you have any fast lenses? If you're just using kit zooms, a couple of primes f2 or faster will buy you two stops.

Jacques Cornell said:

My wife likes to blog (travel and food), she wants me to be the photographer

Click to expand...

A couple of considerations.

1) Are these photos only going online, or do you need to make big prints as well? If the former, you might find that even your Sony pics will look fine full-screen at 1080p on a 24" display up to ISO 3200 if you ETTR and apply a good modern NR tool. DxO Optics Pro 10's PRIME NR feature works wonders while extracting maximum detail.

2) Do you need a fast shutter to stop the motion of people in a restaurant? If not, a tripod or image stabilization might be the answer. Does your Sony body or lens have IS? OTOH, if you really need to shoot at ISO 6400 for a fast shutter, then something like a D7100 ($900) or D7200 ($1,200) might serve you well. They're APS-C, not FF, but they fit your budget, have 24MP, and are only about 2/3 of a stop behind a 5D3 in high-ISO noise. A D750 ($2,000) gets you another stop but blows your budget.

Jacques Cornell said:

... wants or should I say expects/drafts me into it. Then is not happy when I can't make a dark restaurants/locations look good. I'm always telling her its too dark in here! I'm a pro level photoshop user so I know w/noise how far you can push before the image degrades past acceptable. Need better camera.

Click to expand...

What are you using for NR now? Third-party tools, or DxO, can do a much better job than PS.

Jacques Cornell said:

I saw a guy with a 5D (mark... couldn't tell) shooting in a dark restaurant and I could see the back of his camera, looks amazing!

Click to expand...

Did you zoom in, or did you just see the whole image at 3"? If the latter, I wouldn't get too excited. ISO 12800 images look great on my MFT camera at 3", but not so much on my 27" display or in a 12"x18" print.

Jacques Cornell said:

If I have to save up, I'll save up b/c I know I also will need at least 2 lenes, which I'm not including in that budget.

So new or used, any recommendations? Whats it take to get full frame and good low light performance?

Click to expand...

The only FF I can think of that offers really top-notch high ISO performance and fits your budget is a used D700. That said, if you downsample a D7x00 24MP image to the D700's native 12MP, you come out about even. I'd go for the D7x00 for the extra resolution at lower ISO and the assurance of having a brand-new camera.

As a happy low-light MFT shooter, I'd try it first with a couple of fast primes, IS, tripod as needed, and DxO, and I'd make sure to ETTR. 12"x18" prints would be a cinch.

Jacques Cornell · Apr 29, 2015

musicalhell said:
Jacques Cornell said:

agentfx said:

I don't care about video but I supremely care about low light performance, full frame, and I don't mind buying used. That in a budget of <$1200 makes this a conundrum.

I've had lots of camera's, currently have the Sony NEX 5R, and its not good enough in low light. I'm not a noob, but its freakin hard to sort through the noise, pun in tended.

Click to expand...

What's your current max aperture? Do you have any fast lenses? If you're just using kit zooms, a couple of primes f2 or faster will buy you two stops.

musicalhell said:

My wife likes to blog (travel and food), she wants me to be the photographer

Click to expand...

A couple of considerations.

1) Are these photos only going online, or do you need to make big prints as well? If the former, you might find that even your Sony pics will look fine full-screen at 1080p on a 24" display up to ISO 3200 if you ETTR and apply a good modern NR tool. DxO Optics Pro 10's PRIME NR feature works wonders while extracting maximum detail.

2) Do you need a fast shutter to stop the motion of people in a restaurant? If not, a tripod or image stabilization might be the answer. Does your Sony body or lens have IS? OTOH, if you really need to shoot at ISO 6400 for a fast shutter, then something like a D7100 ($900) or D7200 ($1,200) might serve you well. They're APS-C, not FF, but they fit your budget, have 24MP, and are only about 2/3 of a stop behind a 5D3 in high-ISO noise. A D750 ($2,000) gets you another stop but blows your budget.

musicalhell said:

... wants or should I say expects/drafts me into it. Then is not happy when I can't make a dark restaurants/locations look good. I'm always telling her its too dark in here! I'm a pro level photoshop user so I know w/noise how far you can push before the image degrades past acceptable. Need better camera.

Click to expand...

What are you using for NR now? Third-party tools, or DxO, can do a much better job than PS.

musicalhell said:

I saw a guy with a 5D (mark... couldn't tell) shooting in a dark restaurant and I could see the back of his camera, looks amazing!

Click to expand...

Did you zoom in, or did you just see the whole image at 3"? If the latter, I wouldn't get too excited. ISO 12800 images look great on my MFT camera at 3", but not so much on my 27" display or in a 12"x18" print.

musicalhell said:

If I have to save up, I'll save up b/c I know I also will need at least 2 lenes, which I'm not including in that budget.

So new or used, any recommendations? Whats it take to get full frame and good low light performance?

Click to expand...

The only FF I can think of that offers really top-notch high ISO performance and fits your budget is a used D700. That said, if you downsample a D7x00 24MP image to the D700's native 12MP, you come out about even. I'd go for the D7x00 for the extra resolution at lower ISO and the assurance of having a brand-new camera.

As a happy low-light MFT shooter, I'd try it first with a couple of fast primes, IS, tripod as needed, and DxO, and I'd make sure to ETTR. 12"x18" prints would be a cinch.

--
The way to make a friend is to act like one.
www.jacquescornell.photography

Click to expand...

Dear Jacques,

I don't know if this will help, but would a speedlight be a useful choice? You can get softboxes which fold pretty small if you want soft light sources I think? It should allow for faster shutter speeds and lower ISO correct?

Having a couple of speedlights would let you do more things than just a FF body IMO, this is assuming that you don't have it already of course. So to summarise I would go with tripod + fast lens + speedlight/s.

Hope this helps,

Musicalhell

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate your desire to help. I'm a working pro who's been shooting events for 15 years. In my event work I do use multiple speedlights on- and off-camera with stands, radio triggers, bounce cards, umbrellas and softboxes as needed - the whole nine yards. For UWA venue shots in large spaces, though, there's often no way to light the whole space short of turning it into a major Hollywood production. And, often the venue's lighting design is an important aspect of the shot. Here's an example:

Sometimes - as here - I can get by with a handheld shot with IS. Sometimes I really need a tripod. In this particular instance, there was just enough light that two more stops from FF would have given me a fast enough shutter to freeze the motion of the people below.

--
The way to make a friend is to act like one.
www.jacquescornell.photography

musicalhell · Apr 29, 2015

Jacques Cornell said:
Jacques Cornell said:

Dear Jacques,

I don't know if this will help, but would a speedlight be a useful choice? You can get softboxes which fold pretty small if you want soft light sources I think? It should allow for faster shutter speeds and lower ISO correct?

Having a couple of speedlights would let you do more things than just a FF body IMO, this is assuming that you don't have it already of course. So to summarise I would go with tripod + fast lens + speedlight/s.

Hope this helps,

Musicalhell

Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate your desire to help. I'm a working pro who's been shooting events for 15 years. In my event work I do use multiple speedlights on- and off-camera with stands, radio triggers, bounce cards, umbrellas and softboxes as needed - the whole nine yards. For UWA venue shots in large spaces, though, there's often no way to light the whole space short of turning it into a major Hollywood production. And, often the venue's lighting design is an important aspect of the shot. Here's an example:

Sometimes - as here - I can get by with a handheld shot with IS. Sometimes I really need a tripod. In this particular instance, there was just enough light that two more stops from FF would have given me a fast enough shutter to freeze the motion of the people below.

--
The way to make a friend is to act like one.
www.jacquescornell.photography

Dear Jacques,

Sorry I should have made it clear, I was suggesting a speedlight for the OP. But yes I should have thought of the size and lighting of the location which I sadly didn't take into account.

I myself am planning to get my first 'off camera flash' soon, so I can't say much from practical experience. Would, for say photgraphing food, a speedlight with a small softbox be a cheaper alternative to a FF body?

My view was that a speedlight (or a few) would allow for more 'creative' lighting, although within certain limitations of course. Where as a FF body would let you shoot an entire scene in more demanding situations with relative ease.

Of couse the OP needs to judge what kind of photos they would like for themselves, but would or wouldn't speedlights give more 'versatility' over a camera body?

Regards,

Musicalhell

PS My comments are with the OP's post in mind. Also is it just me or does your photo have some distortion?

MarshallG · Apr 29, 2015

trekkeruss said:
PhotoTeach2 said:

But I seriously have to wonder if another camera will make a significant difference.

Sorry, but I sense "operator-technique" error.

IF you know what you are doing, you ("I") can make an excellent image with (almost) ANY camera.

Click to expand...

I agree.

The food isn't moving. Just use a mini tripod, ISO 100, and a longer exposure.

You can get a proper exposure, but there will still be noise in dark areas.

beagle1 · Apr 29, 2015

agentfx said:
Thanks for reading! Long time lurker first post, and its which camera?!?! Oh em gee!

Here's the reason all the articles & research I've done hasn't lead me to a solution. I don't care about video but I supremely care about low light performance, full frame, and I don't mind buying used. That in a budget of <$1200 makes this a conundrum.

I've had lots of camera's, currently have the Sony NEX 5R, and its not good enough in low light. I'm not a noob, but its freakin hard to sort through the noise, pun in tended.

My wife likes to blog (travel and food), she wants me to be the photographer... wants or should I say expects/drafts me into it. Then is not happy when I can't make a dark restaurants/locations look good. I'm always telling her its too dark in here! I'm a pro level photoshop user so I know w/noise how far you can push before the image degrades past acceptable. Need better camera.

I saw a guy with a 5D (mark... couldn't tell) shooting in a dark restaurant and I could see the back of his camera, looks amazing! If I have to save up, I'll save up b/c I know I also will need at least 2 lenes, which I'm not including in that budget.

So new or used, any recommendations? Whats it take to get full frame and good low light performance?

yes, a 5D is nice but with lens full frame DSLR's can get expensive

maybe a refurbished 6D and one or two primes

chuxter · Apr 29, 2015

Jacques Cornell said:
chuxter said:

agentfx said:

Thanks for reading! Long time lurker first post, and its which camera?!?! Oh em gee!

Here's the reason all the articles & research I've done hasn't lead me to a solution. I don't care about video but I supremely care about low light performance, full frame, and I don't mind buying used. That in a budget of <$1200 makes this a conundrum.

I've had lots of camera's, currently have the Sony NEX 5R, and its not good enough in low light. I'm not a noob, but its freakin hard to sort through the noise, pun in tended.

My wife likes to blog (travel and food), she wants me to be the photographer... wants or should I say expects/drafts me into it. Then is not happy when I can't make a dark restaurants/locations look good. I'm always telling her its too dark in here! I'm a pro level photoshop user so I know w/noise how far you can push before the image degrades past acceptable. Need better camera.

I saw a guy with a 5D (mark... couldn't tell) shooting in a dark restaurant and I could see the back of his camera, looks amazing! If I have to save up, I'll save up b/c I know I also will need at least 2 lenes, which I'm not including in that budget.

So new or used, any recommendations? Whats it take to get full frame and good low light performance?

Click to expand...

Do you know of DxOmark? If not, start using them to compare low-light sensitivity of subject cameras.

The winners are:

Sony A7s [3702 ISO/Score = 87]

Nikon Df [3279/Score = 89]

Nikon D4s [3074 ISO/Score = 89]

Nikon D750 [2956 ISO/Score = 93]

Nikon D610 [2925 ISO/Score = 94]

Nikon D810 [2853 ISO/Score = 97]

Click to expand...

Can any of these be had for <$1200? Maybe used body-only?

The OP also said, "If I have to save up, I'll save up..." :-0

I was mostly introducing DxO, listing their current top rated cameras for low light sensitivity, and showing that often LLS comes at the expense of general goodness.

Good used cameras can be a bargain. For example, used D600 bodies cost around $900-$1000 at reputable dealers [B&H, Adorama, KEH]. Used D610 bodies cost between $1200-$1500. Used D700 [which Craig/Guidenet prefers] cost between $850-$1100.

The others on the above list are too new and/or too expensive [the D4s MSRP is $6000!] to have cheap used prices.

Jacques Cornell · Apr 29, 2015

musicalhell said:
Jacques Cornell said:

musicalhell said:

Dear Jacques,

I don't know if this will help, but would a speedlight be a useful choice? You can get softboxes which fold pretty small if you want soft light sources I think? It should allow for faster shutter speeds and lower ISO correct?

Having a couple of speedlights would let you do more things than just a FF body IMO, this is assuming that you don't have it already of course. So to summarise I would go with tripod + fast lens + speedlight/s.

Hope this helps,

Musicalhell

Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate your desire to help. I'm a working pro who's been shooting events for 15 years. In my event work I do use multiple speedlights on- and off-camera with stands, radio triggers, bounce cards, umbrellas and softboxes as needed - the whole nine yards. For UWA venue shots in large spaces, though, there's often no way to light the whole space short of turning it into a major Hollywood production. And, often the venue's lighting design is an important aspect of the shot. Here's an example:

Sometimes - as here - I can get by with a handheld shot with IS. Sometimes I really need a tripod. In this particular instance, there was just enough light that two more stops from FF would have given me a fast enough shutter to freeze the motion of the people below.

--
The way to make a friend is to act like one.
www.jacquescornell.photography

Click to expand...

Dear Jacques,

Sorry I should have made it clear, I was suggesting a speedlight for the OP. But yes I should have thought of the size and lighting of the location which I sadly didn't take into account.

I myself am planning to get my first 'off camera flash' soon, so I can't say much from practical experience. Would, for say photgraphing food, a speedlight with a small softbox be a cheaper alternative to a FF body?

If you want control over the light on your food, yes. But, you can't just drag your gear into a restaurant unannounced during dinner hour and start popping.

musicalhell said:
My view was that a speedlight (or a few) would allow for more 'creative' lighting,

Exactly.

musicalhell said:
although within certain limitations of course. Where as a FF body would let you shoot an entire scene in more demanding situations with relative ease.

Yes, but it gives you no control over the direction, color or quality of light.

musicalhell said:
Of couse the OP needs to judge what kind of photos they would like for themselves, but would or wouldn't speedlights give more 'versatility' over a camera body?

That depends entirely on what you're shooting and under what conditions.

musicalhell said:
Regards,

Musicalhell

PS My comments are with the OP's post in mind. Also is it just me or does your photo have some distortion?

It's got a ton of distortion. See that V shape where the two edges of the balcony converge toward the bottom of the frame? They are actually 90 degrees perpendicular to each other. Also, the camera was pointing down somewhat, so verticals (columns) tend to fall away from the center the closer they are to the edge. That's UWA distortion. It's a natural and unavoidable characteristic of WA optics and not a defect in the lens. The image was made at a focal length of 7mm on MFT (14mm FF).

--
The way to make a friend is to act like one.
www.jacquescornell.photography

chuxter · Apr 29, 2015

PhotoTeach2 said:
chuxter said:

Do you know of DxOmark? If not, start using them to compare low-light sensitivity of subject cameras.

The winners are:

Sony A7s [3702 ISO/Score = 87]

Nikon Df [3279/Score = 89]

Nikon D4s [3074 ISO/Score = 89]

Nikon D750 [2956 ISO/Score = 93]

Nikon D610 [2925 ISO/Score = 94]

Nikon D810 [2853 ISO/Score = 97]

Click to expand...

Notice the A7s scores way highest.

I assume you don't care why. The OP and others might, so I'll mention that the A7s has rather low resolution: 12 MP. Going down the list, the Df and D4s have 16 MP, the D750 and D610 have 24 MP, and the D810 has 36 MP. See the correlation? Also note that in the opinion of DxO, higher resolution improves the overall IQ, thus the Score rises toward the bottom of the list. You have to give up IQ to get LLS.

PhotoTeach2 said:
And it is a mirrorless so will have more versatility and features than any of the dSLR below, (unless you want to do action/sports AF "tracking").

Joe, the A7s does not have more versatility and more features than the others.

PhotoTeach2 said:
But I seriously have to wonder if another camera will make a significant difference.

Me, too. But that is not the point. The OP asked for advice, not criticism.

PhotoTeach2 said:
Sorry, but I sense "operator-technique" error.

WOW!!! I can't fail to mention, "You should know!" ;-)

PhotoTeach2 said:
IF you know what you are doing, you ("I") can make an excellent image with (almost) ANY camera.

I have no clue about your ability to make "excellent" images. You have not posted anything in your DPR Gallery. You don't seem to have a gallery anywhere; at least you don't brag about your pix and ask us to view them. Please show us examples of your ability. On my website, I have some pix that I took in the 1960's...used that stuff called "film"...developed it myself in my darkroom...later on, scanned some of my old pix.

Talk is cheap and easy, Joe.

Jacques Cornell · Apr 29, 2015

MarshallG said:
MarshallG said:

PhotoTeach2 said:

But I seriously have to wonder if another camera will make a significant difference.

Sorry, but I sense "operator-technique" error.

IF you know what you are doing, you ("I") can make an excellent image with (almost) ANY camera.

Click to expand...

I agree.

The food isn't moving. Just use a mini tripod, ISO 100, and a longer exposure.

Click to expand...

You can get a proper exposure, but there will still be noise in dark areas.

I don't understand your point. There is always noise in dark areas. The question is how much. At base ISO, the answer is "less".

Guidenet · Apr 29, 2015

chuxter said:
I have no clue about your ability to make "excellent" images. You have not posted anything in your DPR Gallery. You don't seem to have a gallery anywhere; at least you don't brag about your pix and ask us to view them. Please show us examples of your ability. On my website, I have some pix that I took in the 1960's...used that stuff called "film"...developed it myself in my darkroom...later on, scanned some of my old pix.

Talk is cheap and easy, Joe.

Charlie, Joe has 15 shots in his gallery if you check the name he used a couple of months ago. Joephoto.

Here's Joephoto http://www.dpreview.com/members/4564974193/galleries

I never ever denigrate another's photographs unless they specifically ask for a critique so I'll say nothing good or bad about these. You can judge for yourself.

Joe, is that a self portrait with a lady at Yosemite? Just curious. It's sometimes fun to know what others look like.

--
Cheers, Craig
Follow me on Twitter @craighardingsr : Equipment in Profile - f/22 Club Member
I reserve the right to make mistakes in reasoning and logic as well as to change my mind anytime I wish. I also ask forbearance with respect to my typos. Please take a look at my gallery here at DPR.

chuxter · Apr 29, 2015

Guidenet said:
chuxter said:

I have no clue about your ability to make "excellent" images. You have not posted anything in your DPR Gallery. You don't seem to have a gallery anywhere; at least you don't brag about your pix and ask us to view them. Please show us examples of your ability. On my website, I have some pix that I took in the 1960's...used that stuff called "film"...developed it myself in my darkroom...later on, scanned some of my old pix.

Talk is cheap and easy, Joe.

Click to expand...

Charlie, Joe has 15 shots in his gallery if you check the name he used a couple of months ago. Joephoto.

Here's Joephoto http://www.dpreview.com/members/4564974193/galleries

After I posted, I wondered if he had some there.

Guidenet said:
I never ever denigrate another's photographs unless they specifically ask for a critique so I'll say nothing good or bad about these. You can judge for yourself.

I too will hold my tongue. I now remember looking at his gallery many months ago. I mostly saw "snapshots" from a vacation. He may not want us to judge him on those?

Guidenet said:
Joe, is that a self portrait with a lady at Yosemite? Just curious. It's sometimes fun to know what others look like.

I had the same question...

Another "which camera?" *eyeroll*

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Another "which camera?" eyeroll