"Photographs have always been about the moment, not the dynamic range or pixel count." - Thom Hogan.

Wow. I would say a number of people replying here haven't bothered reading the article, but instead are responding to this one line quote. The article is pointing out that throughout history, most people taking photographs are more concerned with capturing the moment than with technical issues, and so the cameras they choose are based on that premise. By contrast the Japanese manufacturers have hyped pixel count, DR and noise levels so strongly for so long, that they are convincing a decreasing number people that their dedicated cameras are better devices for capturing the moment than cell phones.

To put it succinctly: enthusiasts who are concerned about IQ as a deciding factor of a camera purchases are a shrinking group, and have always represented a minority of actual revenue to camera makers. The "unwashed masses" who not only enjoy taking grab shots with their smartphones, but do so with dirty lenses, poor lighting and monstrous image effects aren't convinced that a dslr is going to provide any advantage over their smartphones.

Of course this is a hard nut to swallow for those who consider their technical expertise-or at least their dslr kits-to be indicative of superior photographic ability. Being told in a round about way that, as an enthusiast, your demands of camera manufacturers are actually leading to lower sales and lesser profits, isn't going to sit well for obvious reasons. That is, however, an aspect of what Thom has written: the camera makers keep making and marketing cameras for a segment of the market that has always been small, and is having less impact on the bottom line as smartphones improve on their ability to not only take decent photos, but do so in a way that is more immediate and accessible to the average person.
 
Wow. I would say a number of people replying here haven't bothered reading the article, but instead are responding to this one line quote. The article is pointing out that throughout history, most people taking photographs are more concerned with capturing the moment than with technical issues, and so the cameras they choose are based on that premise.
Well, sort of capturing the moment. If the DR is very high, it is quite unlikely they will capture the moment if they have little knowledge of how to shoot it or ill-suited gear. The moment as captured might be rather disappointing.

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gollywop
http://g4.img-dpreview.com/D8A95C7DB3724EC094214B212FB1F2AF.jpg
 
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To put it succinctly: enthusiasts who are concerned about IQ as a deciding factor of a camera purchases are a shrinking group
What is the evidence of that? That system camera sales peaked at 2012 and had been on slow decline? If house sales peaked in 2007 and had been on slow decline, do we make the assumption that people who choose to live under a roof are a shrinking group?
and have always represented a minority of actual revenue to camera makers.
And how do we know this?
The "unwashed masses" who not only enjoy taking grab shots with their smartphones, but do so with dirty lenses, poor lighting and monstrous image effects aren't convinced that a dslr is going to provide any advantage over their smartphones.
Sure. I agree. For this lot, nothing short of Canon and Nikon making their own smartphones will save this market. If that is the criticism then I agree.
Of course this is a hard nut to swallow for those who consider their technical expertise-or at least their dslr kits-to be indicative of superior photographic ability. Being told in a round about way that, as an enthusiast, your demands of camera manufacturers are actually leading to lower sales and lesser profits, isn't going to sit well for obvious reasons. That is, however, an aspect of what Thom has written: the camera makers keep making and marketing cameras for a segment of the market that has always been small, and is having less impact on the bottom line as smartphones improve on their ability to not only take decent photos, but do so in a way that is more immediate and accessible to the average person.
Fuzzy logic here. Camera makers can do two things at once: develop high end cameras for the enthusiasts, and market low end cameras to the dont-cares. you seem to say that doing the first necessarily detriments the second. I see no reason or evidence given to this assertion.
 
Photographs might "have always been about the moment," but how well have they captured this "moment" historically?

If photography is truly all "about the moment," then photographs have captured--and continue to capture--moments in very piecemeal fashion, with limitations quite aside from those imposed by limited pixel count and/or DR.

Thom doesn't operationalize "moment." Does it, for instance, refer merely to a "moment in time," or something more? What about the smell and sound of a particular moment? What about its taste?

Will there one day be a place for these things--adjuncts, if you will-- in photography?
 
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So what's the answer--Canikon cell phones?
If samsung can make system cameras, apple can make smartphones, why can't Canikon do that?

In fact, all dominate cell players in the 2000s are faded out - moto, nokia, philips, alcatel, RIM. in contrast, all the dominate cell players today except samsung, wasnt really in this business not too long ago: Apple, Xiaomi, LG, Huawei, Leveno.

Canon and Nikon arguably have more capital than Xiaomi when it first started - who is now the third biggest cell player in the world and the biggest in China. So what is so impossible for the big two to make it in the cell market?

Panasonic released a 1inch sensor smart phone, that is the right move to the right direction, only thing wrong was the price.
 
Whenever I get into this discussion, the consensus seems to be that there isn't any money in phones. I don't know if that includes smartphones, but I'm not aware of a loud roar from the camera crowd in favor of camera makers getting into any kind of phone market.

Got any convincing statistics?
 
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Wow. I would say a number of people replying here haven't bothered reading the article, but instead are responding to this one line quote. The article is pointing out that throughout history, most people taking photographs are more concerned with capturing the moment than with technical issues, and so the cameras they choose are based on that premise. By contrast the Japanese manufacturers have hyped pixel count, DR and noise levels so strongly for so long, that they are convincing a decreasing number people that their dedicated cameras are better devices for capturing the moment than cell phones.
And they are better than cell phones. It's dependent on the use of course, if you need a 2x3 print of a stationary object (or at least don't need your AF to track it), im sure a phone will do nicely, but since none of us really know what is to come, nor do we know for sure how we will be using the files, it's better to be safe than sorry.

That's really the premise here, that we prefer to use more capable tools just in case we need that. What if I want DOF separation? What if my subject is rapidly moving? What if the light is low and I want less noise? What if I want to print it bigger, or somebody else wants that? What if??????????? The more minimal your tool you choose, the more limited you are with the results.
To put it succinctly: enthusiasts who are concerned about IQ as a deciding factor of a camera purchases are a shrinking group, and have always represented a minority of actual revenue to camera makers.
Yes, they always have, which is why it's not shrinking, it's always been small. this is exactly why the doomsday prophecies don't bother us, back before digital was around, it was small, it was exclusive, and most importantly, it survived. The cameras I like will never disappear, no matter how many phones are out snapping poor photos.

Now those who hate my big cameras may want me to think it's all gonna vanish, but they are just hoping that out of meanness.
The "unwashed masses" who not only enjoy taking grab shots with their smartphones, but do so with dirty lenses, poor lighting and monstrous image effects aren't convinced that a dslr is going to provide any advantage over their smartphones.
Yes, yes, they are two different groups of people. Very different, with different needs. People who want smart phones aren't buying them INSTEAD of DSLRs, they are the people who never would have owned a DSLR, and thus they don't affect the DSLR world.
Of course this is a hard nut to swallow for those who consider their technical expertise-or at least their dslr kits-to be indicative of superior photographic ability.
They are of superior ability, just look at the results for any user. Take any person, the same person, give them a phone, and give them a DSLR with lenses, which will average better photos? Comon man, stop kidding yourself.
Being told in a round about way that, as an enthusiast, your demands of camera manufacturers are actually leading to lower sales and lesser profits, isn't going to sit well for obvious reasons.
That's not the reason for lower sales, the reason is we are more satisfied than ever. Market saturation, we love our cameras and don't need to upgrade to the newest model every 6mo. Ask yourself why there are so many people waiting in line for each new iPhone, if the old one was so capable? Nobody wants to admit it, but nobody is happy with the limitations of phones, which is why any new feature is a big deal.
 
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Wow. I would say a number of people replying here haven't bothered reading the article, but instead are responding to this one line quote. The article is pointing out that throughout history, most people taking photographs are more concerned with capturing the moment than with technical issues, and so the cameras they choose are based on that premise.
Well, sort of capturing the moment. If the DR is very high, it is quite unlikely they will capture the moment if they have little knowledge of how to shoot it or ill-suited gear. The moment as captured might be rather disappointing.
 
Thom should know better---and does. The history of photography is very rich already, after only just shy of 2 centuries, and it is not "always about the moment".

Anytime someone makes a statement about something like photography, or any other medium in the realm of visual culture, that states that it is always this way or that----it is almost always (not my qualification, there) wrong. In the main because it is limiting.

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Can you show me a photograph that is famous for something other than composition or subject matter? Is there a famous photograph out there where people love it because of it's resolution, or it's dynamic range, or some other purely technical attribute, even though the subject/composition is uninteresting?
Can you show us a photo from 20 years ago taken in near darkness at the equivalent exposure of ISO 25,600?
WHAT??!! You're point is.....?
The point is that the noise improvements of modern cameras (both midtone noise and shadow noise, which is DR) make images possible today that were impossible 20 years ago, at least not without carrying lighting around. In other words, new cameras let you catch the moment that older cameras couldn't.
Ahh to have had an A7s and been around for the Beatles in those early dark clubs .....or my impossible dream to have been on the tour of South Australian pubs with an A7s .... AC/DC and the Angels! Useable full HD video and stills at ISO 51200.

I would have loved that just to watch the video endlessly (and never mind the fortune if you are the only one there with the camera).
 
To put it succinctly: enthusiasts who are concerned about IQ as a deciding factor of a camera purchases are a shrinking group
What is the evidence of that? That system camera sales peaked at 2012 and had been on slow decline? If house sales peaked in 2007 and had been on slow decline, do we make the assumption that people who choose to live under a roof are a shrinking group?
and have always represented a minority of actual revenue to camera makers.
And how do we know this?
Because enthusiast level dslrs have never been more than 10% of the dslr market, at best.
The "unwashed masses" who not only enjoy taking grab shots with their smartphones, but do so with dirty lenses, poor lighting and monstrous image effects aren't convinced that a dslr is going to provide any advantage over their smartphones.
Sure. I agree. For this lot, nothing short of Canon and Nikon making their own smartphones will save this market. If that is the criticism then I agree.
Of course this is a hard nut to swallow for those who consider their technical expertise-or at least their dslr kits-to be indicative of superior photographic ability. Being told in a round about way that, as an enthusiast, your demands of camera manufacturers are actually leading to lower sales and lesser profits, isn't going to sit well for obvious reasons. That is, however, an aspect of what Thom has written: the camera makers keep making and marketing cameras for a segment of the market that has always been small, and is having less impact on the bottom line as smartphones improve on their ability to not only take decent photos, but do so in a way that is more immediate and accessible to the average person.
Fuzzy logic here. Camera makers can do two things at once: develop high end cameras for the enthusiasts, and market low end cameras to the dont-cares. you seem to say that doing the first necessarily detriments the second. I see no reason or evidence given to this assertion.
Not fuzzy at all. We are talking about Thom Hogan's point that Japanese camera makers are not marketing their cameras properly. They are still going for the "Our camera has more MP and better IQ than their camera" approach in a market segment that really wants to hear "Our camera is more fun to use and makes it easier to capture photos no other camera can."

Any else realize that the number 1 type of photo taken by smartphones and uploaded to social media sites is the "selfie"? You don't need a dslr with 24MP sensor offering 15 steps of DR for that. Nearly 2 billion photos are uploaded to various sites every day. Estimates are that upwards of 75% of those are from cell phones.
 
Thom should know better---and does. The history of photography is very rich already, after only just shy of 2 centuries, and it is not "always about the moment".

Anytime someone makes a statement about something like photography, or any other medium in the realm of visual culture, that states that it is always this way or that----it is almost always (not my qualification, there) wrong. In the main because it is limiting.

--
Can you show me a photograph that is famous for something other than composition or subject matter? Is there a famous photograph out there where people love it because of it's resolution, or it's dynamic range, or some other purely technical attribute, even though the subject/composition is uninteresting?
Can you show us a photo from 20 years ago taken in near darkness at the equivalent exposure of ISO 25,600?
I'm not going to show it to you, but Bobby Kennedy comes to mind.
 
Wow. I would say a number of people replying here haven't bothered reading the article, but instead are responding to this one line quote. The article is pointing out that throughout history, most people taking photographs are more concerned with capturing the moment than with technical issues, and so the cameras they choose are based on that premise.
Well, sort of capturing the moment. If the DR is very high, it is quite unlikely they will capture the moment if they have little knowledge of how to shoot it or ill-suited gear. The moment as captured might be rather disappointing.

--
gollywop
http://g4.img-dpreview.com/D8A95C7DB3724EC094214B212FB1F2AF.jpg
Take a look at the many photos uploaded to Facebook, Instagram, Tumblr, Flickr and other sites from smartphones. Do you really think that many people are concerned about DR?
I didn't say they were concerned with DR; I think you're right that they are not. That was not my point.
I've seen people proudly display as profile pics photos which have all sorts of technical shortcomings. They don't care, because the moment has been captured.
My point is that the moment quite likely hasn't been captured: they most likely have at best an approximation to the moment that is probably missing important ingredients. Perhaps a hint of what the moment was is good enough for them. But don't say the moment has been captured.

--
gollywop
http://g4.img-dpreview.com/D8A95C7DB3724EC094214B212FB1F2AF.jpg
 
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If you read Thom's article, you will find out that he's not just talking about adding Wifi connectivity to a traditional camera...he's saying that the ENTIRE WORKFLOW is ...
I'm not picking up on that at all. I know Thom's been harping on that for a long time now, and he opens by talking about how digital cameras are based on outdated workflows. But after that, the entire article seems to me about easily sharing images.
 
Whenever I get into this discussion, the consensus seems to be that there isn't any money in phones.
I am not aware of such consensus. If anything iphone turned Apple from a second tier IT company into the dominate IT company.
I don't know if that includes smartphones, but I'm not aware of a loud roar from the camera crowd in favor of camera makers getting into any kind of phone market.

Got any convincing statistics?
You are looking this the wrong way around. No one outside this forum gives a toss of the fate of Canikon. In fact within this forum I dont know if people truly care. their fate only concerns themselves. The real issues are: 1, is there money is the smartphone market, and 2, how hard is it to get into that market.

The answer to the first question is obvious. There are loads of money in the smartphone market. Never before in human history the mass feel the need to spend 2 weeks of wage on a communication device once every 12 to 24 months. Essentially equal or better what a serious hobbyst spend on photography.

The answer to the second question is slightly less obvious. Nokia and moto and RIM have all failed to even just stay in that market, HTC is on the verge of getting kicked out. But Xiaomi and Apple got to the top with literally from scratch. Not every company can pull off something like that. Whether Canikon can do it is something only they know the answer to.

The beauty with smartphone market is that the barrier to entry is an illusive one, despite the fact that they all try very hard to lock users in with their own cloud and backup and what not. I used iphones for 5 years and I switched in a heart beat. If Canon or Nikon released a smartphone with the same specs other flasgship phones, android or windows OS (i.e. no idiotic proprietary crap), similar price and better photo quality and control, I would easily buy one. Sony is doing OK with Z1, Z2 and Z3 under that formular and Sony doesnt even have as much expertise in photography as Canikon.
 
Totally right. The current total user experience is terrible.
Depends on the paradigm. To me, a phone is a ridiculous way to edit/catalog images. It's good for snaps and sharing those snaps.

A computer is a great way to preview/edit/orgranize images. A tablet might be ok. A phone ? Never mind the LCD screen on the back of a real camera.

I'll accept that there are plenty of people who want to do things differently from me. But the current user experience is perfectly fine for many of us.
 
Sometimes you see something funny and want to share it with friends.
That's what phones are for.
Or you have a significant moment like the birth of a child where PP is not possible or necessary. Etc. The purpose of photography for most folks is sharing moments,
And those people are using phones. Even if phones and cameras had all the same sharing capabilities, most of the people who went from cameras to phones only ever bought a camera because it was the only way to take a picture. They're not about to go out and buy another device to carry (and pay data plan fees for) when their phone is good enough.
 
To put it succinctly: enthusiasts who are concerned about IQ as a deciding factor of a camera purchases are a shrinking group
What is the evidence of that? That system camera sales peaked at 2012 and had been on slow decline? If house sales peaked in 2007 and had been on slow decline, do we make the assumption that people who choose to live under a roof are a shrinking group?
and have always represented a minority of actual revenue to camera makers.
And how do we know this?
Because enthusiast level dslrs have never been more than 10% of the dslr market, at best.
By revenue? whats your data? the full month of D800's release it was the top seller of all system cameras on amazon by unit! 1 D800 was worth 7 D3100, 6 D3200, 5 D5100.
The "unwashed masses" who not only enjoy taking grab shots with their smartphones, but do so with dirty lenses, poor lighting and monstrous image effects aren't convinced that a dslr is going to provide any advantage over their smartphones.
Sure. I agree. For this lot, nothing short of Canon and Nikon making their own smartphones will save this market. If that is the criticism then I agree.
Of course this is a hard nut to swallow for those who consider their technical expertise-or at least their dslr kits-to be indicative of superior photographic ability. Being told in a round about way that, as an enthusiast, your demands of camera manufacturers are actually leading to lower sales and lesser profits, isn't going to sit well for obvious reasons. That is, however, an aspect of what Thom has written: the camera makers keep making and marketing cameras for a segment of the market that has always been small, and is having less impact on the bottom line as smartphones improve on their ability to not only take decent photos, but do so in a way that is more immediate and accessible to the average person.
Fuzzy logic here. Camera makers can do two things at once: develop high end cameras for the enthusiasts, and market low end cameras to the dont-cares. you seem to say that doing the first necessarily detriments the second. I see no reason or evidence given to this assertion.
Not fuzzy at all. We are talking about Thom Hogan's point that Japanese camera makers are not marketing their cameras properly. They are still going for the "Our camera has more MP and better IQ than their camera" approach in a market segment that really wants to hear "Our camera is more fun to use and makes it easier to capture photos no other camera can."
You just added more fuzziness into it. Enthuists market does not require marketing, but if it did, "more DR" is a hell lot more useful than "more fun to use".

But for the low end, how they market them is irrelevant because no one is buying, people are buying smartphones.

There is a dichotomy and you are mucking them together.
Any else realize that the number 1 type of photo taken by smartphones and uploaded to social media sites is the "selfie"? You don't need a dslr with 24MP sensor offering 15 steps of DR for that. Nearly 2 billion photos are uploaded to various sites every day. Estimates are that upwards of 75% of those are from cell phones.
Refer to comment above

"Sure. I agree. For this lot, nothing short of Canon and Nikon making their own smartphones will save this market. If that is the criticism then I agree."
 
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The designations DR and pixel count may not have always been the terms used but I have always strived for visually satisfying content presented at the highest technical level I could manage as a given. Technical expertise is never a disadvantage. It will not save an image that does not work but it always enhances one that does.

Darkroom days images were always delivered on graded double weight fibre, archivally processed and toned in selenium. People remembered.

Now the scans are 165MB Tiff and clean to 100% pixel level. Does not matter for an 8 by 10 but wall size or severely cropped the extra effort pays off.
 

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