"Photographs have always been about the moment, not the dynamic range or pixel count." - Thom Hogan.

but to claim that it never matters is plain dumb.
He did not say it never matters. Quite the contrary, actually.

He asked where the famous images are, that are famous on technical merits alone. That is absolutely not the same thing as saying that the technical capabilities don't matter.
It just sounds like what people say who want an excuse to use the cheapest and simplest gear.
Well, it seems like you are mixing what two different groups of people are saying.

Regards, Mike
 
Thom should know better---and does. The history of photography is very rich already, after only just shy of 2 centuries, and it is not "always about the moment".

Anytime someone makes a statement about something like photography, or any other medium in the realm of visual culture, that states that it is always this way or that----it is almost always (not my qualification, there) wrong. In the main because it is limiting.

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Can you show me a photograph that is famous for something other than composition or subject matter? Is there a famous photograph out there where people love it because of it's resolution, or it's dynamic range, or some other purely technical attribute, even though the subject/composition is uninteresting?
All you are doing is ensuring a stalemate. Can you show me a famous landscape or macro shot that has bad blurriness, is 1000 pixels in size, has completely ruined colors, or that ended up with 2 stops of DR for the entire scene? Technical merit matters for every shot, just not the same amount for every shot. Some need it more, some need it less, but to claim that it never matters is plain dumb. It just sounds like what people say who want an excuse to use the cheapest and simplest gear.
Where did I say technical quality never matters? I did not - that was your interpretation.

An great photograph taken with a D80 (or even older tech) will always be more appealing than a boring photograph taken with a D810.
To reference what somebody recently said, "where did I say content never matters? I did not, that was your interpretation". So yes, what you say is true, but wouldn't that same shot taken with the D810 be even better than it was on the D80?
Not necessarily. Was the capabilities of the D80 exceeded by the scene and the final output? If not, then not better in any meaningfull sense, no. And there are plenty of moments and scenes where a D80 gives plenty good results. And, just as obvious, there are plenty of moments and scenes where a D810 gives better results - but that does not invalidate the other scenes.
That's what this is really about, the people who say gear does matter are not saying it in place of content, we are saying it along side content. Im not sure why some people (if it's not you then disregard) think this is the case.
But that is not what is being said here. It is being said that the gear is a means to an end - so basically you agree with each other. In a funny way, but still the same thing :-)

DPReview - the only place where people will argue - loudly - while being in perfect agreement.

Regards, Mike
 
Thom should know better---and does. The history of photography is very rich already, after only just shy of 2 centuries, and it is not "always about the moment".

Anytime someone makes a statement about something like photography, or any other medium in the realm of visual culture, that states that it is always this way or that----it is almost always (not my qualification, there) wrong. In the main because it is limiting.

--
Can you show me a photograph that is famous for something other than composition or subject matter? Is there a famous photograph out there where people love it because of it's resolution, or it's dynamic range, or some other purely technical attribute, even though the subject/composition is uninteresting?
Can you show us a photo from 20 years ago taken in near darkness at the equivalent exposure of ISO 25,600?
But if the subject and the composition is pointless, dull, uninteresting, boring, then what's the point? The point it it would never be a great / famous photo because it was taken at ISO 25,600 in near darkness.
 
Thom should know better---and does. The history of photography is very rich already, after only just shy of 2 centuries, and it is not "always about the moment".

Anytime someone makes a statement about something like photography, or any other medium in the realm of visual culture, that states that it is always this way or that----it is almost always (not my qualification, there) wrong. In the main because it is limiting.

--
Can you show me a photograph that is famous for something other than composition or subject matter?
Sure---lots of sports and stop action photography have little to do with composition, and some only marginally about subject matter.
What sports photo is not about subject matter? Were it not, wouldn't it then be a sports photo?
As for what you have brought up....probably we could find something, perhaps a lot of things. Some of the first photographs, for instance.
These are just about the only exceptions to the norm. Those shots made to demonstrate the technical capabilities, and they don't have to be old; they exist for any new camera. So that sort of invalidates the 'always', but then you can very easily argue that the shot is about the demonstration of those capabilities, and then we are back at the moment.
Or for instance certain images of space or the subatomic realm, for which the technical achievement is the overriding quality for it being "famous".
No. They are made to show space or the subatomic realm (not much photography going on there, but still).

Regards, Mike
 
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Disagree.

Ansel Adams used the water bath development technique to get the most dynamic range out of his negatives for example.

Did he use 35mm film because resolution did not matter?

What was the purpose of medium/large format if resolution has never mattered?

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https://www.flickr.com/photos/nonnit/
 
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Disagree.

Ansel Adams used the water bath development technique to get the most dynamic range out of his negatives for example.

Did he use 35mm film because resolution did not matter?

What was the purpose of medium/large format if resolution has never mattered?
Sure, and that's very true, but it still wouldn't matter if the pictures were awful. Subject, composition, timing, etc.

It's fair to say that even if Ansel Adams had used 35mm film he would have still taken amazing images, and someone who was not as talented would have taken garbage even with a large format camera.

I'm pretty sure that Steve McCurry would take better pictures with my iPhone than I do with my D800.
 
Disagree.

Ansel Adams used the water bath development technique to get the most dynamic range out of his negatives for example.

Did he use 35mm film because resolution did not matter?

What was the purpose of medium/large format if resolution has never mattered?
Sure, and that's very true, but it still wouldn't matter if the pictures were awful. Subject, composition, timing, etc.

It's fair to say that even if Ansel Adams had used 35mm film he would have still taken amazing images, and someone who was not as talented would have taken garbage even with a large format camera.

I'm pretty sure that Steve McCurry would take better pictures with my iPhone than I do with my D800.
 
In response to some of the disagreeing positions above, I do not think Thom Hogam meant that technology was important. We all know it is. I believe he was simply saying that ultimately it is the content of a photo that matters most. And I do not think he was suggesting a 'decisive moment' in the Bresson sense. I believe he was saying that it is the fraction of a second in which most (not all) photographs are made that means the most regardless of the level of technology. If one looks back over the more than 150 years photographs have been taken, you will see many good ones taken from the first photo technology to today's technology. The one thing they have in common is the moment.
 
You likely missed that the link you provided leads to Tom's part that is entirely focused towards the mobility of shooting and instantly sharing by exporting the pictures.

And Tom likely missed the search for shooting with instant connectivity clip-on camera's for smartphones like the sony's and the olympus.

But hey! Have fun ;)
 
So is it silly/wrong for people to want to share photos with others?
I don't know if it's silly or not, but Thom seems to be suggesting that the lack of this capability is one of the things keeping ILC sales down. And I'm just not seeing that. It might boost sales of Rebel/D3000 kits if there are some 30-somethings out there who aren't buying their entry level DSLRs because they can't upload snaps to Facebook. But I think most ILC buyers either work around the limitation or don't consider it a limitation in the first place. I'll share a snap of something I find interesting with my phone, but that's more a "visual text" - it's not "photography". When I shoot with my DSLR, I wouldn't share anything until I get home, edit, post process (if necessary), choose which gallery to add to ... nothing I want to do from my camera in the field.

Photography has always been about the moment, but it's always been about preserving the moment. Once you get that 1/125 second recorded, you have all the time in the world to share it. I don't think ILC sales are driven by people who "have to share it NOW". But I'm sure I'm missing lots of use cases because I'm just me and I'm not a wedding photographer or a press photographer or any kind of pro at all, never mind a big social media user (my idea of social media is still email ... and dpr forums).

Thom himself wrote, a year or more ago, that the last thing we need is another device that we have to pay another $40/mo to add to our data plans. I think he's feeling his way around this issue, too. Maybe it's something that will happen; that needs to happen, but I don't think it's the solution to declining sales.
 
If Thom Hogan thinks this why does he spend so much time talking about and reviewing gear?
Did you actually read the article ? It's about gear.
I think people do like to to obsess about kit but then try to cover it by making lofty pronouncements they are above it all really and it is all so unimportant.
That's just the title; you're making assumptions as to what the article is about.
 
So is it silly/wrong for people to want to share photos with others?
No, it's not wrong - obviously not, in my opinion.

On the other hand, I can't quite get myself to say that it is not at least sometimes a bit silly :-)

Regards, Mike
 
Yet with the advent of performance improvements (engine power, better transmissions, handling advances), creature comforts (better suspensions, tires, seats), and safety (crumple zones, air bags, anti-lock brakes, traction control), newer cars let us get from A -> B in a faster, more comfortable, and more consistently safer manner. I see camera improvements in the same light.
Interesting analogy, because I see Thom's proposed in-camera sharing as being similar to all the connected technology stuff that's being advertised in cars (Ford "Sync" and other systems that I just don't care enough to understand) ... and like that technology, I don't know enough to know whether it's really something the rest of the market wants, just because I only want a car/camera that excel at their primary functions.
 
Agree, because I take the shot because of wanting a capture of the moment. I want to record the moment so that I can do something with it later.
Bingo ! Since getting an iPhone, I "get" the sharing thing to a degree. I'm not on any social media sites, but I stumble across things now & then that are fun to share via an email ... basically, a "visual text" to share something funny/interesting I saw. But that's not photography; that's ... chatting. And a cell phone is fine for that purpose. Photography starts when I pick up a camera and from there, I agree with everything you wrote here. All you have to do is capture the moment; the moment is fleeting, but once you've captured it, you have all the time in the world to share it.

I can see the "gotta share it now" crowd maybe wanting a better camera than a phone, so there is room for innovation (there have been a couple zoom lens digicams running Android, that type of thing) ... I can't see a lot of the ILC crowd needing the "gotta share it now" feature ... but here's where I'll freely admit that I could be way off base, because I just don't know enough about how other photographers, esp. pros, work.
 
So is it silly/wrong for people to want to share photos with others?
I don't know if it's silly or not, but Thom seems to be suggesting that the lack of this capability is one of the things keeping ILC sales down. And I'm just not seeing that. It might boost sales of Rebel/D3000 kits if there are some 30-somethings out there who aren't buying their entry level DSLRs because they can't upload snaps to Facebook. But I think most ILC buyers either work around the limitation or don't consider it a limitation in the first place. I'll share a snap of something I find interesting with my phone, but that's more a "visual text" - it's not "photography". When I shoot with my DSLR, I wouldn't share anything until I get home, edit, post process (if necessary), choose which gallery to add to ... nothing I want to do from my camera in the field.
I guess where I would disagree is with the idea that the average ILC user over the last decade is competent to the point that they are willing to learn cameras and work around limitations. I just get the feeling the bulk of DSLRs in circulation are on the lower end, bought by snapshooters who wanted higher IQ than what was otherwise available, to take photos to share. With the advent of social media and fast broadband combined with a market saturated by connectivity-limited cameras and the widespread availability of cheap fast cameraphones it's just kind of a perfect storm for next to no sales. Even when you factor in the connectivity aspect of new cameras, I don't think that's enough to get a 30-something to buy a 2nd DSLR when their 1st one is collecting dust. I'm one of those social media addicted 30 somethings, and I am planning to upgrade my ILC, but mainly for IQ and the availability of cheap full frame bodies, not necessarily connectivity (though that is a plus). I would not buy my NEX-C3 over again if it were the same camera with an NFC connection.
Photography has always been about the moment, but it's always been about preserving the moment. Once you get that 1/125 second recorded, you have all the time in the world to share it. I don't think ILC sales are driven by people who "have to share it NOW". But I'm sure I'm missing lots of use cases because I'm just me and I'm not a wedding photographer or a press photographer or any kind of pro at all, never mind a big social media user (my idea of social media is still email ... and dpr forums).
I don't think they were driven by those folks back during the boom because social media was not as prevalent as it is now. But to capture a new generation of kids completely immersed in it, ILCs definitely have to work around that paradigm. Maybe not every model, but definitely a body or two to whet appetites. The value of connectivity goes beyond those kids as well... photojournalism is heavily dependent on upload speeds.
Thom himself wrote, a year or more ago, that the last thing we need is another device that we have to pay another $40/mo to add to our data plans. I think he's feeling his way around this issue, too. Maybe it's something that will happen; that needs to happen, but I don't think it's the solution to declining sales.
It's definitely a tricky situation, and it's probably not right to tie the hopes of the whole industry on one feature. But I do think camera makers' inability or reluctance to embrace social media/connectivity early on was a huge mistake, and it may be too late for them to recover from that.
 
I think photographers should stop trying to be philosophers, regardless of their (perceived) pith. Or, perhaps, go full bore:
  • 'Tis better to have captured the moment, then to have quibbled over the canvas.
  • An instrument is not as noble as the memory it measures.
  • The soul knows not of matters megapixel.
  • Dispair follows a hardened heart, but not softened corners.
You get the idea.
 
I think photographers should stop trying to be philosophers, regardless of their (perceived) pith. Or, perhaps, go full bore:
  • 'Tis better to have captured the moment, then to have quibbled over the canvas.
  • An instrument is not as noble as the memory it measures.
  • The soul knows not of matters megapixel.
  • Dispair follows a hardened heart, but not softened corners.
You get the idea.
Yes - fun!

Regards, Mike
 

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