Why you buy a micro four thirds ? most of my friends use Canon / Nikon / Sony

Banh Mi

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The micro four thirds system:
- bad on high ISO > 800
- sensor is small, so deep of field x 2.0, background not blur

But why you buy micro four thirds ? My brother in law with his 7D, and most of friends, they don't know what brand is "olympus", and they always me, why I use that brand, and not buy cheap Full Frame like A7 or 6D.

( P/S: I got Olympus E M10, because the body is so beautiful >_< I can't stop myself, hahahaha )

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Live theatre shots - not cropped:

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You beast - don't make me go back to using a mirror!

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DubDubDub
 
I'm with FingerPainter on this - (and I'm a u4/3 user) what you have pointed out is essentially specific to one specific Oly camera body & and one specific Hasselblad digital back. It isn't *intrinsic* to u4/3.

C
No, what he wrote was that there is no single 35mm camera that can lose to any m4/3 or a single m4/3 camera that can win any 35mm camera.
Please stop dishonestly putting words in my mouth.

<snip amazing but equally misleading rant>
 
I'm with FingerPainter on this - (and I'm a u4/3 user) what you have pointed out is essentially specific to one specific Oly camera body & and one specific Hasselblad digital back. It isn't *intrinsic* to u4/3.

C
No, what he wrote was that there is no single 35mm camera that can lose to any m4/3 or a single m4/3 camera that can win any 35mm camera.
No he didn't. you are going to have to point to the post where he literally, word for word said "no single 35mm camera that can lose to any m4/3 or a single m4/3 camera that can win any 35mm camera". Otherwise you can put down the pitchfork and burning torch, take a chill pill and calm the heck down.

<snip>
We can sit front of our computer whole day and argue how 35mm sensor is better, resulting better photographs etc. But while doing that, there is bunch of m4/3 photographers out there capturing great memories (even more smartphone users),
The irony is strong in this one.

C

PS I'm off to take photos with my Fuji X30
 
I'm with FingerPainter on this - (and I'm a u4/3 user) what you have pointed out is essentially specific to one specific Oly camera body & and one specific Hasselblad digital back. It isn't *intrinsic* to u4/3.

C
No, what he wrote was that there is no single 35mm camera that can lose to any m4/3 or a single m4/3 camera that can win any 35mm camera.
Please stop dishonestly putting words in my mouth.

<snip amazing but equally misleading rant>
That was what you said... you used words "m4/3" and "FF".
 
No he didn't. you are going to have to point to the post where he literally, word for word said
Seems like you don't read what others have said:
"This isn't an illustration of a limitation of FF cameras."
"The MFT, OTOH is not capable of producing the same shot as the FF."
Those are his EXACT WORDS. WORD FOR WORD.

He said clearly that there is not a single m4/3 camera that can produce same shot as the FF, and there is no m4/3 camera that FF would not win.

Those are his words, literally telling that FF is always better, no matter of what.

And then he went and moved the goal posts by saying that using tripod, using other ways to get the shot than the original post gave the sample in the sample style, same ISO, same shutter speed, same aperture and same field of view.

He did not like the results, so he moved goal posts by saying: "It is an illustration of poor technique on the part of the photographer. Why didn't the photographer set the aperture on FF to get the correct DOF?"

And here we are.... why didn't the m4/3 photographer using a HR mode? Why didn't he take 10 frames and stack them in image editor? Why didn't he use/do/...

While the argument from the original poster (Paul Auclair) still holds, that with the same settings, m4/3 produce more pleasing photo on that setup that he photographed.

And that is exactly the most common problem, TOO NARROW DEPTH OF FIELD.

And m4/3 receives 2 stops more light for same depth of field than 35mm sensor does. 2 stops... more.... That can be used to 2 stops faster shutter speed. 2 Stops lower ISO, Flashes 2 times further from subject, use light diffusers, flashes cycle 2 times more, or combinations like 1 stop faster shutter speed and 1 stop lower ISO.

I made my point but people didn't want to accept the truth. Because 35mm fans loves out of focus photos.
 
Also, the FF gives you another option, assuming you are on tripod. Set aperture to f/11 but slow shutter to 4/3 sec and keep ISO 100. You'll get the same brightness, DOF and diffraction, but 2 stops less shot noise.
The m4/3 gives you even better choices if you have a tripod. You get less shot noise by 8 stops, true colors and same depth of field with higher resolution and more detailed value.

FF is very limited to what m4/3 can produce in colors, noise and brightness.
This is incredible, and I mean that literally. It is not to be believed.

Please give particular settings that the m4/3 could use that would give 8 stops less shot noise, and better colour, noise and brightness than what one could achieve on FF.
E-M5 II HR mode that is combination of 8 frames, A Live Composite that you can leave taking photos for hours, resulting far more accurate colors and brightness with far far lower noise than FF on same time....

FF is very limited camera format, people just don't like to admit it.
That's really quite hilarious. That's not a feature of m4/3 cameras. It could be built into any format. (and has been built into one other, I think.)
Yes, in medium format and m4/3 cameras. But not in 35mm camera. You said otherwise but now you need to admit that m4/3 camera has something that 35mm doesn't have to benefit in that sample.
I wouldn't by overly surprised to see it in future APS-C and FF cameras from Sony, or anyone else who uses some form of sensor-movement technology. It is a feature of one m4/3 camera. It is only effective with a totally stationary subject and a totally stationary camera.
You claimed that any 35mm camera can beat ANY m4/3 camera in that. You moved the goal posts, you need to like that, taking a sample of one production camera that is being sold, placed against a even famous 35mm camera and results are that m4/3 wins...

Those flowers doesn't move in that set, do they? That pineapple did not move, did it? Do not move goal post again. There is lots of photography scenes where there isn't moving subjects, and lots of where there is. If you would have spend a time to read, you would need to admit your own believes for 35mm format superiority is justified.
That means this particular m4/3 is a lot more limited in use of it special ability than a FF. An E-M5 II will not get as good a shot as FF if hand-held or if shooting a moving subject, and that covers the vast majority of all shots.
Again shooting a wide range claims. The E-M5 II has 2 stop more light for same depth of field. You can use that to get 2 stops faster shutter speed, or 2 stops lower ISO. You have IBIS while most 35mm cameras doesn't have, actually only the A7II does. And the OIS doesn't correct Z axis or work with all the objectives. As I wrote (and you didn't want to read), you seem to like blurry photographs where subject is out of focus, because you are never photographing anything above f/3.5, right?
Furthermore, it would seem that the Oly's RAW files are not quite ready for prime time. Is the any RAW conversion software that converts an E-M5 HR RAW file into soemthign as shapr as produced by an A7R or a D810? I haven't seen it.
Even when it hurts my spirit...

So let's be clear. It is not m4/3 that has this ability to give you less shot noise and higher resolution. It is an adaptation of senor shift technology, that any formt could employ, ad dthat only works under very limited circumstance.


You now say that E-M5 II is not a m4/3 camera? And you are talking about future possibilities and not from the current, today possibilities? Moving goal posts again, you really love that.



Let me tell you a prediction, in next 6 years m4/3 cameras will produce far more details out than most 35mm cameras today. They have a timeshift sensor technology that collects 10 times more photons than any 35mm sensor is capable to whole sensor surface. And that is done by controlling how butterflies flaps their wings in japan.



Or how about getting real, what and what not in the future X offers?

Or how about getting real, what and what not in the future X offers?



And sorry, but "very limited circumstances" is something that many photographer do for their daily living....

But remember, don't never use f/3.5 or smaller aperture in 35mm cameras as you will enter to m4/3 cameras territory....
 
I'm with FingerPainter on this - (and I'm a u4/3 user) what you have pointed out is essentially specific to one specific Oly camera body & and one specific Hasselblad digital back. It isn't *intrinsic* to u4/3.

C
No, what he wrote was that there is no single 35mm camera that can lose to any m4/3 or a single m4/3 camera that can win any 35mm camera.
Please stop dishonestly putting words in my mouth.

<snip amazing but equally misleading rant>
That was what you said... you used words "m4/3" and "FF".
Yeah, the formats.

I didn't use the words "single 35mm camera" or "single m4/3 camera". I was talking about the characteristics of formats, not individual models. And what you said about m/3 cameras, is simply not true of m4/3 cameras plural, or of the m4/3 format in general. There is only one m/4.3 model that can do it. And it isn't the first cameras to do this. Hasselblad released a medium format digital camera last year that does it.

It is not its format that it giving the E-M5 II its multi-expoure performance. And there is nothing about the format that prevents that sort of technology from being used on other formats, bigger or smaller.
 
E-M5 II HR mode that is combination of 8 frames,
Can one get the same result from two (higher MP count) hand-held FF frames? - just think about it.
Sure, you can do that with any camera. The argument was for the given example posted there. Not that what you can do to alter situation for 35mm benefit, while not adjusting anything for m4/3 benefit. It isn't that 35mm camera allows to do tricks but those tricks are not allowed to be used with m4/3 camera. As that isn't fair comparison then. The comparison was given to show that with same settings, m4/3 so called "disadvantage" is really a advantage. Then someone comes and claims that "This isn't an illustration of a limitation of FF cameras." and "The MFT, OTOH is not capable of producing the same shot as the FF.". It was not stated what camera, in where. In image editing we can do lots of things, regardless of the camera. It is that what levels the playfield. Rendering benefits of 35mm camera most often non-existing and usually negligent.
A Live Composite that you can leave taking photos for hours, resulting far more accurate colors and brightness with far far lower noise than FF on same time....
After you stack them up and blend in post-processing ..
That can be done with any camera... That is the point what some people just doesn't seem to get. It doesn't go just like that you take 35mm camera and say "Oh, but I can do these tricks, but oh no, you are not allowed to do same!"
FF is very limited camera format, people just don't like to admit it.
It is used nevertheless ..
I didn't say it isn't used. It is known fact that 135 format is used a lot. The arguments these days are that DSLR is dying, technology has improved a lot resulting big changes in smaller cameras, that leads to possibility to use smaller cameras to get photographs that meet the requirement. Some pixel peepers doesn't like the idea, many 35mm fan doesn't like the idea. And what is that idea? That they need to abandon their believes and look alternatives in different ways. As in last 3-5 years digital cameras technology has changed more than most photographers really have noticed.

Photographers are not ultimate judges that command how technology needs to be developed. It happens with or without photographers. The end user, the audience, the people who look photographs in their final print size from the usable medium will rule what is acceptable image quality. If here would come a engineer that designs a digital camera sensors and would say that Sony sensor pixels used in A7s are inferior to Panasonic sensor pixels used in GH4, it would not change photographers opinion that 35mm is better.

Take the photo from GH4 and from A7s in most common situations and edit both in image editor and then go to street with iPad and present them to random people and tell them to point which one they like more. It is far far far more difficult and actually random made decision than if you would show them two photos where other is a half-naked beautiful 18v girl and in other is 80 years old cranky woman. And then if you ask them why they chose as they did, you see that it is hard time to them really tell the reasons between GH4 and A7s photos.

And they are the ultimate judges...

Just like with those two samples from the simple flowers and pineapple. Download those to iPad, go to street and ask from people which one is better. There is even bigger difference is the iPad first generation (2010) or from latest retina iPad, than the photos itself. With retina iPad if you let the people exam them closer (without zooming even) they probably would find out that the photo from m4/3 camera is sharper, because it is in focus. Same settings (ISO, Aperture and Shutter speed).

The m4/3 cameras has gained popularity, they are used more and more, nevertheless.

And they produce photos that everyone would keep excellent, if they would not just know that it is not taken with 35mm sensor camera, as otherwise there comes the words again: "The MFT, OTOH is not capable of producing the same shot as the FF."

It is like this scenario. I write this from a 7" tablet, I am currently standing next to my camera that is doing long exposure.

It would have been much nicer to write this in front of my computer with ergonomic keyboard, calibrated 4K displays and yadda yadda yadda...

But why I would write something from 7" device that doesn't have a physical keyboard? Thats screen isn't even 4K!

Because it is with me. Because it is light, small and fits to any pocket. It has battery lifetime for few days in normal use (I can watch couple TV shows every day and browse web a one hour for over weekend and still have battery left to check emails). It is sharp enough to browse photos and view them. It is great tool to do minor adjustments before sending them.

It does everything I need (and more) and is suited to work far better than any laptop or workstation is, because those are big. I don't have in this a 8 core CPU with a 32GB RAM. I can't really do CAD work or anykind designs for electronics. And yet I use this device far more than I use any other computer. Why? because it is small and light, and it gives results that are far better than I can get from any other computer.

Does it make this 7" device technically better than any other my computers? No.... not even close. But if I can get most tasks done with same results, it doesn't matter.

Should I carry 35mm camera only because it is technically better? No, heavy, large and results are better negligently.

It would be like carrying a 12" laptop instead 7" tablet.

If I get 99% same results from m4/3 camera than from otherone using 35mm camera, I don't care that it isn't technically better.

If I can climb with lighter setup, I can move faster, I can get to positions where I could not get with 35mm camera, I am getting photographs that would otherwise left from being taken.

And now there is a new m4/3 camera that can do amazing things in studio and even for landscapes. It has own limits, but still when needed and possible use, it will gives amazing results.

And when the final judgement comes from the people who see photos in front page of Time, National Geographic etc. No one, no one thinks "I should have that camera as it takes so great photos!".

The point still stands, 35mm format is limited camera that future is cursed by its own fans, as they won't learn to think differently.
 
I'm with FingerPainter on this - (and I'm a u4/3 user) what you have pointed out is essentially specific to one specific Oly camera body & and one specific Hasselblad digital back. It isn't *intrinsic* to u4/3.

C
No, what he wrote was that there is no single 35mm camera that can lose to any m4/3 or a single m4/3 camera that can win any 35mm camera.
Please stop dishonestly putting words in my mouth.

<snip amazing but equally misleading rant>
That was what you said... you used words "m4/3" and "FF".
Yeah, the formats.

I didn't use the words "single 35mm camera" or "single m4/3 camera". I was talking about the characteristics of formats, not individual models. And what you said about m/3 cameras, is simply not true of m4/3 cameras plural, or of the m4/3 format in general.
You said that there is no m4/3 camera that is capable to produce what 35mm does. (btw, 4/3 is a format, m4/3 aka MFT is a mount). You opened the door to pickup any camera from those two formats.

I picked up two samples and you didn't like that you were wrong. And now you are trying to avoid admitting that there are m4/3 cameras that can beat ANY 35mm camera. I could have picked up a first Canon 35mm camera or first Nikon 35mm camera. But instead I picked something like Sony A7r that is highly respected by 35mm fans.
There is only one m/4.3 model that can do it. And it isn't the first cameras to do this. Hasselblad released a medium format digital camera last year that does it.
Oh I know Hasselblad did it first, we all know that. It doesn't change the point that there is now a change to use a m4/3 camera to take photos that beats even 35mm sensor camera.

It hurts... doesn't it?

Do you ever wonder how 35mm fans avoid talking about medium format cameras? Because they can't accept that 35mm sensor isn't the biggest one there, so it is better to be quiet about it.

And yet they like to pick "Half-Frame" (same 135 format as 35mm sensor) APS-C cameras or 4/3 sensor cameras. Want to move the goal posts "Oh, but you could have used tripod and use longer exposure to keep ISO lower" daddaddadadada.... Yes, same thing for m4/3 cameras. same thing with background blur in portraits, do it in image editing. Then comes the arguments "Oh I don't have time to go trough all the hundreds of photos..." No, you need to just do the one or two.

It is not its format that it giving the E-M5 II its multi-expoure performance. And there is nothing about the format that prevents that sort of technology from being used on other formats, bigger or smaller.
It is now the m4/3 cameras, as there is no technology for cameras with 35mm sensors.

It is exactly same thing with the technology.

When the Live View came, DSLR owners were "That is a Gimmick!"

When the IBIS came, DSLR owners were "That is a Gimmick!"

When the SSWF camera, DSLR owners were "That is a Gimmick!"

Now when HR mode came, 35mm owners are "That is a gimmick!"

The point is, no matter is the sensor 4/3 or 35mm, we get the same results that the final judges love.

35mm sensor has benefit 2 stops for background blur

4/3 sensor has benefit 2 stops for faster shutter speed

35mm sensor has benefit 2 stops higher ISO

4/3 sensor has benefit 2 stops lower ISO

......

Both have benefits to use tripod, same image editing choices etc etc.
 
Also, the FF gives you another option, assuming you are on tripod. Set aperture to f/11 but slow shutter to 4/3 sec and keep ISO 100. You'll get the same brightness, DOF and diffraction, but 2 stops less shot noise.
The m4/3 gives you even better choices if you have a tripod. You get less shot noise by 8 stops, true colors and same depth of field with higher resolution and more detailed value.

FF is very limited to what m4/3 can produce in colors, noise and brightness.
This is incredible, and I mean that literally. It is not to be believed.

Please give particular settings that the m4/3 could use that would give 8 stops less shot noise, and better colour, noise and brightness than what one could achieve on FF.
E-M5 II HR mode that is combination of 8 frames, A Live Composite that you can leave taking photos for hours, resulting far more accurate colors and brightness with far far lower noise than FF on same time....

FF is very limited camera format, people just don't like to admit it.
That's really quite hilarious. That's not a feature of m4/3 cameras. It could be built into any format. (and has been built into one other, I think.)
Yes, in medium format and m4/3 cameras.
Nope. In one medium format and one m4/3 camera.

It is not a characteristic common to all MF and all m4/3 cameras. Sensor size, and the related light-gathering ability per frame is a charactierisc common to all cameras of a given format.

Don't you understand the difference between the characteristics of a particular camera model and the characteristics inherent in a whole format?
You claimed that any 35mm camera can beat ANY m4/3 camera
No I didn't.
in that. You moved the goal posts,
No, I didn't.
you need to like that, taking a sample of one production camera that is being sold, placed against a even famous 35mm camera and results are that m4/3 wins...
The results are that a composite image comprised of a large number of inferior images may be better than a non-composite image that is superior to any one of the inidividual images making up the composite. It's the same idea as focus stacking in macro photography.
...

So let's be clear. It is not m4/3 that has this ability to give you less shot noise and higher resolution. It is an adaptation of senor shift technology, that any formt could employ, ad dthat only works under very limited circumstance.
You now say that E-M5 II is not a m4/3 camera?
Are you as stupid as you seem? NO, I do not say the E-M5 is not a m4/3 camera. I am saying that the sensor shift technology is not a characteristic specific to m4/3 cameras. Or to put it another way, I couldn't pick up any m4/3 camera regardless of model, and get the hi-res performance that sensor shift gives the E-M5.

Anyway, you got me. I fell for the troll. Congratulations. Now I am done with you.
 
E-M5 II HR mode that is combination of 8 frames,
Can one get the same result from two (higher MP count) hand-held FF frames? - just think about it.
Sure, you can do that with any camera.
That was to your comment about 8 frames. If it can be done with any camera, and from less frames to boot, then what was your 8 frames line about then?
..
A Live Composite that you can leave taking photos for hours, resulting far more accurate colors and brightness with far far lower noise than FF on same time....
After you stack them up and blend in post-processing ..
That can be done with any camera...
Was precisely my point.

..
FF is very limited camera format, people just don't like to admit it.
It is used nevertheless ..
I didn't say it isn't used.
You said they don't like to admit. And of those FF cameras did not deliver, does your comment also imply someone somewhere is forcing those people to use larger cameras? Or is there something else in it, that you did not say?
 
I give in. You are psychologically driven to prove that you are right no matter what. No room for interpretation, no room for any generalisations. No room for reasonable discussion.

Since you won't chill out you can take your little ball and play on your own. The adults will be over there when you want to join them.

C
 
Anyway, you got me. I fell for the troll. Congratulations. Now I am done with you.
Oh, name calling and then trying to do a personal insult when you can't stand that you made claim that 35mm is always better and m4/3 cameras can never touch the 35mm cameras anyways, after moving goal posts when someone was shown a sample with cameras in same settings with more better result from m4/3.

Good for you! Isn't it just nice when you can just snip other all arguments that shows how your claim was totally invalid and just scream out of the room "I AM DONE WITH YOU! I WON I WON!? You just could not stand that in those samples it was shown that the m4/3 capability to 2x more light gathering for same depth of field is actually huge benefit because you get subject in focus, instead out of focus. You wanted to move goal posts by changing the factors in those samples, well, you can't always do that. When you need to get the subject in focus, need to get the motion stopped, you are limited in options what to do. And that 35mm sensor fans can't accept that there is really huge benefit to actually be able gather 2 times more light for same depth of field. And next time try to remember that personal insults doesn't make you correct, just shows what you are.
 
<snip XKCD cartoon>

How about one that is more apposite?

duty_calls.png


C
I probably was already on bed on that time. But at least I was not sitting front of the computer but photographing outdoors if not in the bed.

So does it apply? No. Does the point apply? Yes.
 
Yesterday, I carry Rokinon 85mm 1.4 + Metabones and the Olympus EM10 gave me these shoots. ^_^



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90c8cc769e284f83bb9edad34a7758ed.jpg


Not bad, right?

--
Add me? We shoot together
 
Like so many, I shot dragging around two bodies, 5 lens, two flash units and a tripod when I shot weddings. When I shot for a weekly it was one body with 3 lens and two flash units. That weighed a ton and I started looking for something lighter. I first started looking at the Leica forum here ( I had looked at the Nikon forum for years) and found there that they were also talking about m 4/3 format. I didn't know a thing about m 4/3 never having even known that it existed. After reading about m 4/3 in this forum I purchased the Panasonic GF1, thinking that if I didn't like it, I could sell it. You know the old story, I kept the GF1 and sold all my old Nikon gear. My process has taken me through the GF1 to the G3 and now the GX7.

I would no more go back to the DSLR than I would want to go back to my wet darkroom. A side benefit is that no one seems to notice the small m 4/3 camera. I shoot street, and building security would often ask me to move on with my Nikon equipment and has not happened since I purchased the Panasonic gear. Because I shoot street the GX7's stealth mode is great to have. I currently have in my day bag the GX7, 14mm, 25mm and 45mm lens. I can carry that all day with out a problem.

I started shooting in 1959 while serving in Germany in the Army but today I am retired from engineering. I try to walk 2 to 3 miles a day, and carry that small kit with me. I have only had the GX7 for about a month, so I am still learning about it. If you were to look at prints made from a raw file that has been run through LR and ones made from your friends DSLR's I doubt that you can see any difference. I couldn't nor could my friends.

The best camera is one that you can keep with you, and the smaller format with a small lens like the 14mm or 20mm fit that bill and weigh nothing.

www.photosbypike.com
 

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