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GretagMacbeth Printer Profile Users

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Andrew Curatola

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Would anybody know how you would go about or have any ideas on tweaking a printer profile as your making it? For instance on a certain type of paper I use I would like to see the finished profile have a softer look or a less saturated look. I know I can accomplish those two looks in Photoshop prior to printing out an image either manually or using an action. I'm looking to eliminate that step in Photoshop and have the profiles do the work for me. All this is for strickly personal preferences on certain types of paper I use.

Since printing out the color targets is done using "Same As Source" and "No Color Adjustments " enabled, there are no options to make any adjustments.

In experimenting what I'm trying now is before I print out the Color Target and then scan it with the Measuring device, I had made some drastic color adjustments to the Color Target in Photoshop just to see what a finished profile would look like under those conditions. I'm waiting for them to fully dry before I scan them.

I know the way I'm experimenting is not a ground breaking method nor will I win the " Printer Profile Man of the Year" award but does anybody know or have an idea on how to tweak a profile while your making it?

Thank you
Andrew
 
Hey Andrew,

I don't know of a way to tweak a profile as you make it. It seems to me that what ever you do to the target, eye one would try to take it back to the standard target color.

How about tweaking as you print? On the Epson 1280 and 2200, it seams that you could print with custom color controls. I have not tried it.

I am having some problems with profiles. The profile I made on the 2200 for enhanced matt is not a good as epson's profile and some of my matt profiles don't seem to get enough ink/saturation on them. Is this what you are experiencing?
Thanks
Dwayne
Andrew Curatola said:
Would anybody know how you would go about or have any ideas on
tweaking a printer profile as your making it? For instance on a
certain type of paper I use I would like to see the finished
profile have a softer look or a less saturated look. I know I can
accomplish those two looks in Photoshop prior to printing out an
image either manually or using an action. I'm looking to eliminate
that step in Photoshop and have the profiles do the work for me.
All this is for strickly personal preferences on certain types of
paper I use.

Since printing out the color targets is done using "Same As Source"
and "No Color Adjustments " enabled, there are no options to make
any adjustments.

In experimenting what I'm trying now is before I print out the
Color Target and then scan it with the Measuring device, I had made
some drastic color adjustments to the Color Target in Photoshop
just to see what a finished profile would look like under those
conditions. I'm waiting for them to fully dry before I scan them.

I know the way I'm experimenting is not a ground breaking method
nor will I win the " Printer Profile Man of the Year" award but
does anybody know or have an idea on how to tweak a profile while
your making it?

Thank you
Andrew
Click to expand...
 
Dwayne Anders said:
Andrew Curatola said:
Would anybody know how you would go about or have any ideas on
tweaking a printer profile as your making it? For instance on a
certain type of paper I use I would like to see the finished
profile have a softer look or a less saturated look. I know I can
accomplish those two looks in Photoshop prior to printing out an
image either manually or using an action. I'm looking to eliminate
that step in Photoshop and have the profiles do the work for me.
All this is for strickly personal preferences on certain types of
paper I use.

Since printing out the color targets is done using "Same As Source"
and "No Color Adjustments " enabled, there are no options to make
any adjustments.

In experimenting what I'm trying now is before I print out the
Color Target and then scan it with the Measuring device, I had made
some drastic color adjustments to the Color Target in Photoshop
just to see what a finished profile would look like under those
conditions. I'm waiting for them to fully dry before I scan them.

I know the way I'm experimenting is not a ground breaking method
nor will I win the " Printer Profile Man of the Year" award but
does anybody know or have an idea on how to tweak a profile while
your making it?

Thank you
Andrew
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Dwayne, I'm getting very good profiles with all my papers and printers. I just sent an e-mail to GretagMacbeth tech support asking them the very same question that was my initial post. I'm sure there are ways of making minor tweaks to the profiles themselves but there are'nt too many people around with GretagMacbeth making profiles.

Andrew
 
Andrew Curatola said:
Would anybody know how you would go about or have any ideas on
tweaking a printer profile as your making it?
Click to expand...
You need a dedicated profile editor. GretagMacbeth makes one (somewhat steep learning curve but VERY powerful). The saturation editor would do what you wish.

Be VERY careful about editing profiles based on only a few print samples. Usually the profiles from GM need no editing at all. Users with profile editors make the mistake of editing a profile based on a few prints of a few images and end up chasing their tails a lot.
--
Andrew Rodney
http://www.digitaldog.net
http://www.imagingrevue.com/
 
Andrew Rodney said:
Andrew Curatola said:
Would anybody know how you would go about or have any ideas on
tweaking a printer profile as your making it?
Click to expand...
You need a dedicated profile editor. GretagMacbeth makes one
(somewhat steep learning curve but VERY powerful). The saturation
editor would do what you wish.

Be VERY careful about editing profiles based on only a few print
samples. Usually the profiles from GM need no editing at all. Users
with profile editors make the mistake of editing a profile based on
a few prints of a few images and end up chasing their tails a lot.
--
Andrew Rodney
http://www.digitaldog.net
Click to expand...
Andrew, I think I'll stick to the very good results I'm getting right now and forget about one type of paper I have that I want to do tricks with.
Thank you for the timesaving information
Andrew
Andrew Rodney said:
http://www.imagingrevue.com/
Click to expand...
 
Dwayne Anders said:
Hey Andrew,
I don't know of a way to tweak a profile as you make it. It seems
to me that what ever you do to the target, eye one would try to
take it back to the standard target color.
How about tweaking as you print? On the Epson 1280 and 2200, it
seams that you could print with custom color controls. I have not
tried it.
I am having some problems with profiles. The profile I made on the
2200 for enhanced matt is not a good as epson's profile and some of
my matt profiles don't seem to get enough ink/saturation on them.
Is this what you are experiencing?
Thanks
Dwayne
Click to expand...
Dwayne, Now that I got my "Tweak the Profile" crusade out of the way, I meant to ask you what settings are you using to print out your Color Targets? Are you using Same As Source in your Photoshop Print Preview window and do you have No Color Adjustments enabled in the 2200 Print Properties Box? These were the settings I had to use to print out the Color Targets when I had ordered 5 custom profiles from Cathy's Profiles to send to her.
Just a thought
Andrew
Dwayne Anders said:
Andrew Curatola said:
Would anybody know how you would go about or have any ideas on
tweaking a printer profile as your making it? For instance on a
certain type of paper I use I would like to see the finished
profile have a softer look or a less saturated look. I know I can
accomplish those two looks in Photoshop prior to printing out an
image either manually or using an action. I'm looking to eliminate
that step in Photoshop and have the profiles do the work for me.
All this is for strickly personal preferences on certain types of
paper I use.

Since printing out the color targets is done using "Same As Source"
and "No Color Adjustments " enabled, there are no options to make
any adjustments.

In experimenting what I'm trying now is before I print out the
Color Target and then scan it with the Measuring device, I had made
some drastic color adjustments to the Color Target in Photoshop
just to see what a finished profile would look like under those
conditions. I'm waiting for them to fully dry before I scan them.

I know the way I'm experimenting is not a ground breaking method
nor will I win the " Printer Profile Man of the Year" award but
does anybody know or have an idea on how to tweak a profile while
your making it?

Thank you
Andrew
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Andrew Curatola said:
Would anybody know how you would go about or have any ideas on
tweaking a printer profile as your making it? For instance on a
certain type of paper I use I would like to see the finished
profile have a softer look or a less saturated look. I know I can
accomplish those two looks in Photoshop prior to printing out an
image either manually or using an action. I'm looking to eliminate
that step in Photoshop and have the profiles do the work for me.
All this is for strickly personal preferences on certain types of
paper I use.

Since printing out the color targets is done using "Same As Source"
and "No Color Adjustments " enabled, there are no options to make
any adjustments.

In experimenting what I'm trying now is before I print out the
Color Target and then scan it with the Measuring device, I had made
some drastic color adjustments to the Color Target in Photoshop
just to see what a finished profile would look like under those
conditions. I'm waiting for them to fully dry before I scan them.

I know the way I'm experimenting is not a ground breaking method
nor will I win the " Printer Profile Man of the Year" award but
does anybody know or have an idea on how to tweak a profile while
your making it?

Thank you
Andrew
Click to expand...
--This site http://antelligent.com/ has a profile editor that works. Check it yourself and decide. I will only say it does what it says it will do. Learning it isnt bad.
MATTinFL
 
Matt in FL said:
--This site http://antelligent.com/ has a profile editor that
works. Check it yourself and decide. I will only say it does what
it says it will do. Learning it isnt bad.
Click to expand...
The Color Darkroom plugin does work well and is useful, but it's limited in what it can do. In particular, you can do global colour tweaks using a curves-like interface or adjust spot colours. What you cannot do is mimic the controls in Photoshop's hue/saturation tool. Thus, you cannot make the reds a bit more orange, for instance, or adjust the saturation of colours. For this you need something like ColorVision's DoctorPro plugin, which applies global adjustments that have been set up in a Photoshop action.

John
 
John Houghton said:
Matt in FL said:
--This site http://antelligent.com/ has a profile editor that
works. Check it yourself and decide. I will only say it does what
it says it will do. Learning it isnt bad.
Click to expand...
The Color Darkroom plugin does work well and is useful, but it's
limited in what it can do. In particular, you can do global colour
tweaks using a curves-like interface or adjust spot colours. What
you cannot do is mimic the controls in Photoshop's hue/saturation
tool. Thus, you cannot make the reds a bit more orange, for
instance, or adjust the saturation of colours. For this you need
something like ColorVision's DoctorPro plugin, which applies global
adjustments that have been set up in a Photoshop action.

John
Click to expand...
Matt & John, I thank both of you for your information. I know I'll give Color Darkroom a shot just out of curiosity, then I'll take a look at the Dr Pro plugin.
Thanks again
Andrew
 
I found my problem with my monitor profiles. My first monitor profile matched my first print and it looked great too.Then, things went bad. I was getting blown out highlights and bought a new monitor. The new monitor worked, so I sent the bad one off for warranty repair. Two hours later, the new monitor did the same thing as the old one. So, I bought a new video card and no more bad highlights. I did a new profile on the new monitor with the new video card installed and I now have great colors.
This should make things go a lot smoother.
Makes for a long week. ;)
Now, back to work on the printer profiles.
Dwayne
 
Dwayne Anders said:
I found my problem with my monitor profiles. My first monitor
profile matched my first print and it looked great too.Then, things
went bad. I was getting blown out highlights and bought a new
monitor. The new monitor worked, so I sent the bad one off for
warranty repair. Two hours later, the new monitor did the same
thing as the old one. So, I bought a new video card and no more bad
highlights. I did a new profile on the new monitor with the new
video card installed and I now have great colors.
This should make things go a lot smoother.
Makes for a long week. ;)
Now, back to work on the printer profiles.
Dwayne
Click to expand...
Dwayne, I'm very glad for you. Let me know how you make out with your print profiles.
Andrew
 
Thanks Andrew,

I just did a profile on epson enhanced matt from the dual test sheets that I made last night with the old video card and they are not even close. I have printed some more test sheets for tomorrow. I will try those and then call Greytag if they don't work. I don't even get the error message on epsons matt but they still don't work. How are you doing with your profiles?
Dwayne
 
Dwayne Anders said:
Thanks Andrew,
I just did a profile on epson enhanced matt from the dual test
sheets that I made last night with the old video card and they are
not even close. I have printed some more test sheets for tomorrow.
I will try those and then call Greytag if they don't work. I don't
even get the error message on epsons matt but they still don't
work. How are you doing with your profiles?
Dwayne
Click to expand...
Dwayne, What settings did you use to print out the two Color Tests Charts? Did you use Same As Source in the Print with Preview Box and Enable No Color Adjustments in the 2200 Printer Properties Box?
Andrew
 
If you decide to dip your toe into the profile editing waters, as the good Mr. Rodney mentions, get a high powered profile editor. GMB's ProfileEditor is great, as is ColorBlind Edit. The editor bundled with MonacoProfile takes the cake, but is not available as a stand-alone product.

A key feature is the ability to edit the output (PCS to RGB) and simulation (RGB to PCS) directions of the profile independently. Often the issue is a matter of making the soft proof better match the print. If so, editing the simulation side of the profile is both easier and less likely to cause unintended consequences than editing the output direction.

Another capability of good profile editors is powerful selective color tools. I actually often edit an input (camera) profile to produce the effect I desire rather than fussing about in Photoshop. Both ColorBlind and ProfileEditor have far easier selective color tools to work with than does Photoshop. Using these tools on output profiles can work, but as Andrew correctly points out, be sure to check the results on a variety of images. What looks good on a portrait can be a disaster for a landscape.

There is also the poor man's profiling technique. This involves making the opposite corrections to the measured data prior to profiling that you want to happen in print. To bump up global saturation, desaturate the capture slightly. Unfortunately, you need to convert spectral data to L*ab to do this. This precludes using the optical brightener corrections, so you either need to measure with an UV filter or use papers without brighteners. This process is also one filled with some trial and lots of error. Before long, you will have wasted more time, ink, and paper than a good editor costs.

--
Ethan Hansen
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/
 
I printed the test sheet from the eye one match software.

Dwayne
Andrew Curatola said:
Dwayne Anders said:
Thanks Andrew,
I just did a profile on epson enhanced matt from the dual test
sheets that I made last night with the old video card and they are
not even close. I have printed some more test sheets for tomorrow.
I will try those and then call Greytag if they don't work. I don't
even get the error message on epsons matt but they still don't
work. How are you doing with your profiles?
Dwayne
Click to expand...
Dwayne, What settings did you use to print out the two Color Tests
Charts? Did you use Same As Source in the Print with Preview Box
and Enable No Color Adjustments in the 2200 Printer Properties Box?
Andrew
Click to expand...
 
Ethan Hansen said:
If you decide to dip your toe into the profile editing waters, as
the good Mr. Rodney mentions, get a high powered profile editor.
GMB's ProfileEditor is great, as is ColorBlind Edit. The editor
bundled with MonacoProfile takes the cake, but is not available as
a stand-alone product.

A key feature is the ability to edit the output (PCS to RGB) and
simulation (RGB to PCS) directions of the profile independently.
Often the issue is a matter of making the soft proof better match
the print. If so, editing the simulation side of the profile is
both easier and less likely to cause unintended consequences than
editing the output direction.

Another capability of good profile editors is powerful selective
color tools. I actually often edit an input (camera) profile to
produce the effect I desire rather than fussing about in Photoshop.
Both ColorBlind and ProfileEditor have far easier selective color
tools to work with than does Photoshop. Using these tools on
output profiles can work, but as Andrew correctly points out, be
sure to check the results on a variety of images. What looks good
on a portrait can be a disaster for a landscape.

There is also the poor man's profiling technique. This involves
making the opposite corrections to the measured data prior to
profiling that you want to happen in print. To bump up global
saturation, desaturate the capture slightly. Unfortunately, you
need to convert spectral data to L*ab to do this. This precludes
using the optical brightener corrections, so you either need to
measure with an UV filter or use papers without brighteners. This
process is also one filled with some trial and lots of error.
Before long, you will have wasted more time, ink, and paper than a
good editor costs.

--
Ethan Hansen
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/
Click to expand...
Ethan, thank you for your information but I think I'll stay out of waters where I can very easily drown.

Thanks again
Andrew
 
I did not do that on the problem profiles. I screwed up when I did the matt profile. I did a quick one last night and it was much better. I will try another one today with a dry chart.
Thanks for the help.
Dwayne
Dwayne Anders said:
John Houghton said:
Dwayne Anders said:
I printed the test sheet from the eye one match software.
Click to expand...
Well that answered one of the two questions. Did you enable No
Color Adjustments in the 2200 Printer Properties Box?

John
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Andrew Curatola said:
Ethan, thank you for your information but I think I'll stay out of
waters where I can very easily drown.
Click to expand...
Where's your sense of adventure? It's not every day that you can spend money on a product, followed by an afternoon, evening, and late night of tweaking and printing, and be rewarded with prints much, much worse than when you began! Shove the prints in ratty Goodwill frames, affix thousand dollar price tags, and you have high art.

--
Ethan Hansen
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/
 
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