Scene Visualization: EVF vs OVF

An EVF would seem to get a lot closer to what the sensor is capturing since it's a feed from that very sensor.
The feed is a very reduced version of what the sensor detects. There is no such reduction using an OVF: you see the scene, the sensor sees the scene and each uses it in its own way. With an EVF there's the camera JPG conversion, compression and loss of DR to get in the way.
Well it seems that as EVFs get better and better there's going to be less of a differntail there.
Whatever might happen in the future we're discussing what happens now.
It seems that neither one is really a what-you-see-is-what-you get type of deal... so each one of them in their own way is bother closer and less close to the actual result.
This is a new consideration. How close the final output is to the original scene depends on several factors, most of which concern the quality of the camera and editing software (whether in-camera or external) and are independent of how well the viewfinder represents the scene.

Insofar as the camera/software is good enough to give an accurate representation of the scene, as an OVF looks directly at the scene it will be just as accurate as the camera. The EVF, however, always shows less than the sensor records so - as I said in my earlier post - it does not get close to what the sensor is capturing. This was the only point under consideration in our original exchange.

It's possible, of course, that the camera is poor and doesn't give an accurate representation of the scene.
Interesting. So your camera doesn't blow highlights and can cover the full DR found in nature? Tell us more.
In that case the OVF doesn't give a good indication of the final output.
The OVF gives no indication of the final output. It's just a light tunnel, that shows a slightly dimmer view of what the camera is pointing at (or significantly dimmer view in some cases).
The EVF might get close to the final output (depending on how well it copes with the reduction I've described), which might be seen as a plus for the EVF but ...

... if the camera's output is so poor that it can adequately reproduce the scene it isn't worth having whatever kind of VF it has. And I don't think makers would welcome the notion "use an EVF to show the false colours our camera generates".
Tradeoffs with each, it seems...
Indeed, but not the way you suggest here.
How so?
One thing an EVF can do is brighten what you see. If that's just showing the effect of the exposure parameters set it can be valuable in its own right - but, unless you wish to use OOC JPG it's not actually any closer to what the sensor records, only how it is represented. But you can also brighten the VF to see more than the OOC JPG would give: this can be a useful focusing aid in very poor light and isn't available with an OVF.

So yes, there are factors to trade off between OVF and EVF when it comes to using the camera. But the EVF doesn't show better what the sensor captures so that isn't one of them.

--
---
Gerry
___________________________________________
First camera 1953, first Pentax 1985, first DSLR 2006
http://www.pbase.com/gerrywinterbourne
[email protected]
 
using face detect try and do that with your OVF ?



cheers don

--
Pentax k7,fz150,xz1 and a new oly m43 e-pL5 my toys.
Sorry Don, but face detect would not work on this shot - as far as I am aware no camera thus far can detect the profile as a 'face'. I am very neutral and very open to EVF and OVF, would really like to see OVF with EVF overlay as per request.... The technology marches on, EVF will (for sure) become more and more used - without arguing why but for their simplicity and low cost, the absence of precise calibration, mechanical noise, space they take (though this can be dissected in further details looking at all pros and cons...).

It would be less than a problem for traditional DSLR to have on-chip PDAF as well so the LV experience (in positive sense) can become a matter of choice with no penalty in AF speed, yet still retaining OVF option which is, in my view something we would consider 'natural experience'. In such case, an EVF option would be a matter of choice in plugging external VF in live feed (already provided through HDMI port). The best of both worlds....at the cost, of course.

EVF and OVF are personal preference, each with pros and cons. So, the photo like the one you provided as an 'example' had been taken many times before using any camera, some without VF at all - it's the shutter actuation at the right time. Whether the photographer needed to press the shutter button 5ms or 25ms earlier, it was AHEAD what either EVF or OVF had been showing at that time. Thus, we may be talking about the superiority of the photographer regardless of the technology, right?

cheers
 
An EVF would seem to get a lot closer to what the sensor is capturing since it's a feed from that very sensor.
The feed is a very reduced version of what the sensor detects. There is no such reduction using an OVF: you see the scene, the sensor sees the scene and each uses it in its own way. With an EVF there's the camera JPG conversion, compression and loss of DR to get in the way.
Well it seems that as EVFs get better and better there's going to be less of a differntail there.
Whatever might happen in the future we're discussing what happens now.
It seems that neither one is really a what-you-see-is-what-you get type of deal... so each one of them in their own way is bother closer and less close to the actual result.
This is a new consideration. How close the final output is to the original scene depends on several factors, most of which concern the quality of the camera and editing software (whether in-camera or external) and are independent of how well the viewfinder represents the scene.

Insofar as the camera/software is good enough to give an accurate representation of the scene, as an OVF looks directly at the scene it will be just as accurate as the camera. The EVF, however, always shows less than the sensor records so - as I said in my earlier post - it does not get close to what the sensor is capturing. This was the only point under consideration in our original exchange.

It's possible, of course, that the camera is poor and doesn't give an accurate representation of the scene. In that case the OVF doesn't give a good indication of the final output. The EVF might get close to the final output (depending on how well it copes with the reduction I've described), which might be seen as a plus for the EVF but ...

... if the camera's output is so poor that it can adequately reproduce the scene it isn't worth having whatever kind of VF it has. And I don't think makers would welcome the notion "use an EVF to show the false colours our camera generates".
Tradeoffs with each, it seems...
Indeed, but not the way you suggest here.
How so?
One thing an EVF can do is brighten what you see. If that's just showing the effect of the exposure parameters set it can be valuable in its own right - but, unless you wish to use OOC JPG it's not actually any closer to what the sensor records, only how it is represented. But you can also brighten the VF to see more than the OOC JPG would give: this can be a useful focusing aid in very poor light and isn't available with an OVF.

So yes, there are factors to trade off between OVF and EVF when it comes to using the camera. But the EVF doesn't show better what the sensor captures so that isn't one of them.
 
A digital sensor isn't even close to what the real world looks like through an OVF. So I guess I disagree with you on this. While not a perfect representation of the final image the EVF one is closer than an OVF one, at least to my eyes.
 
An EVF would seem to get a lot closer to what the sensor is capturing since it's a feed from that very sensor.
The feed is a very reduced version of what the sensor detects. There is no such reduction using an OVF: you see the scene, the sensor sees the scene and each uses it in its own way. With an EVF there's the camera JPG conversion, compression and loss of DR to get in the way.
Well it seems that as EVFs get better and better there's going to be less of a differntail there.
Whatever might happen in the future we're discussing what happens now.
It seems that neither one is really a what-you-see-is-what-you get type of deal... so each one of them in their own way is bother closer and less close to the actual result.
This is a new consideration. How close the final output is to the original scene depends on several factors, most of which concern the quality of the camera and editing software (whether in-camera or external) and are independent of how well the viewfinder represents the scene.

Insofar as the camera/software is good enough to give an accurate representation of the scene, as an OVF looks directly at the scene it will be just as accurate as the camera. The EVF, however, always shows less than the sensor records so - as I said in my earlier post - it does not get close to what the sensor is capturing. This was the only point under consideration in our original exchange.

It's possible, of course, that the camera is poor and doesn't give an accurate representation of the scene.
Interesting. So your camera doesn't blow highlights
My camera blows highlights if I set the exposure too high; it doesn't blow highlights if I set exposure correctly. In that respect it's like every other camera in the world. How I set exposure has nothing to do with the type of viewfinder; using an EVF can give a guide to the correct exposure but unless the camera's JPG conversion goes exactly to the bright end of the sensor's DR (most leave about 1.2 stop unused) it's only a guide.
and can cover the full DR found in nature? Tell us more.
That depends on the DR of the scene. It can capture 13 stops, which is a lot more than the 9 stops that the EVF shows (at best). If the scene has a wider DR than that the sensor obviously can't capture it: that's one of the reasons I said "Insofar as the camera/software is good enough to give an accurate representation of the scene, as an OVF looks directly at the scene it will be just as accurate as the camera."
In that case the OVF doesn't give a good indication of the final output.
The OVF gives no indication of the final output. It's just a light tunnel, that shows a slightly dimmer view of what the camera is pointing at (or significantly dimmer view in some cases).
Wrong. It gives an indication of what the final output will be. The accuracy of that indication depends on the accuracy of the camera's imaging process. It won't be perfectly accurate but it will be more accurate than an EVF by the degree to which the scene DR lies between about 9 stops and 13 stops and the degree to which the total image process is accurate.

Take this shot - the scene I was shooting looked very much like this, both as I stood behind the camera and as I looked through the OVF. This is the output from what the sensor recorded.

37502b0569114eaf94e38cf4042893a4.jpg

The straight conversion of the raw file looks like this, which is about what an EVF would show. This is much further from the scene than what the OVF showed.

2248558df2f8409386055b51d034dd84.jpg









--
---
Gerry
___________________________________________
First camera 1953, first Pentax 1985, first DSLR 2006
[email protected]
 
I would like to raise a point that I rarely see adressed, and which most often is expressed as advantage for optical viewfinders: Scene Visualization. I would like to raise this point, because for me it works strictly the reverse way as for most people, or so it seems.
As far as scene visualization goes, I really like shooting with an EVF in black-and-white mode. (If you're a RAW shooter, many mirrorless cameras allow you to shoot RAW+JPEG, and if the JPEG is set for black-and-white then you're going to get black-and-white in the EVF.) I find that seeing the scene in black-and-white allows me to visualize the composition more abstractly, without the distraction of color, and in doing so I get better compositions...or I'm able to see the better composition more quickly in the viewfinder before taking the shot.
 
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the ovf sees the image on a ground glass surface which looses a lot of detail. its a fact of life in ovf some have better ground glass than others but its not nearly as life like as a wire finder or a good optical non reflex finder. We need these compromised finders because they allow us to easily use interchangeable lenses , the ovf finder gets quite dark with slow zoom lenses. no finder is perfect you make your choice based on whats important to you.
 
You raise some valid and interesting points. I'm a photojournalist and work fast, but I remember working with a 4x5 view camera for landscape photography. The leisurely study of a large "screen" is quite pleasant and gives a photographer far more encouragement to compose the image. Similarly, some photographers use, for instance, Canon's "Live View" for precisely the same reason, especially for product photography in the studio. And I know of other pros who link a tablet to the camera to compose their shots.
 
An EVF would seem to get a lot closer to what the sensor is capturing since it's a feed from that very sensor.
The feed is a very reduced version of what the sensor detects. There is no such reduction using an OVF: you see the scene, the sensor sees the scene and each uses it in its own way. With an EVF there's the camera JPG conversion, compression and loss of DR to get in the way.
Well it seems that as EVFs get better and better there's going to be less of a differntail there.
Whatever might happen in the future we're discussing what happens now.
It seems that neither one is really a what-you-see-is-what-you get type of deal... so each one of them in their own way is bother closer and less close to the actual result.
This is a new consideration. How close the final output is to the original scene depends on several factors, most of which concern the quality of the camera and editing software (whether in-camera or external) and are independent of how well the viewfinder represents the scene.

Insofar as the camera/software is good enough to give an accurate representation of the scene, as an OVF looks directly at the scene it will be just as accurate as the camera. The EVF, however, always shows less than the sensor records so - as I said in my earlier post - it does not get close to what the sensor is capturing. This was the only point under consideration in our original exchange.

It's possible, of course, that the camera is poor and doesn't give an accurate representation of the scene.
Interesting. So your camera doesn't blow highlights
My camera blows highlights if I set the exposure too high; it doesn't blow highlights if I set exposure correctly. In that respect it's like every other camera in the world. How I set exposure has nothing to do with the type of viewfinder; using an EVF can give a guide to the correct exposure but unless the camera's JPG conversion goes exactly to the bright end of the sensor's DR (most leave about 1.2 stop unused) it's only a guide.
That is true.

However, here are the things that OVF supporters deny:

1) an OVF is only a "guide" in that is shows nothing of what the camera will actually capture on the sensor - it tells you absolutely no information, no preview of what decision the metering has made and how that relates to the actual luminance of the scene.

OVF supporters constantly claim that the OVF has more DR than the EVF. True that. However, the sad reality is that the OVF has more DR than the sensor itself, and therefore cannot tell the user how said sensor will interpret the scene versus how the viewer's human eye did.

This means that you are dependent on the camera's metering to interpret the scene, because what you are seeing has no relation to what the camera itself is doing, except for a inconclusive readout of a shutter speed and aperture choice. Part of the difficulty of using a camera is being able to understand if the camera's exposure is radially incorrect for the current requirements, and that brings us to point number (2).

2) OVF supporters state that, by using the claim that an EVF will not give you a truly accurate exposure preview, the image preview isn't worthwhile. What OVF supporters constantly miss is that the EVF exposure preview (EVF image brightness) is just one of the tools available, they constantly miss the fact and advantage that modern EVF's overlay live data on the image.

In other words, EVF supporters constantly claim "exposure preview" and OVF supporters never believe that this is true. Between the EVF brightness preview and live histogram overlays, possibly even live 'blinkies' (highlilght overexposure warnings), an EVF user knows exactly what the sensor will capture. Forget about "what I see" (me, the operator), getting a good photograph is about understanding and interpreting how a scene will appear in the camera.

From Zone system practitioners all the way to photography schools, the chant is understand how the camera is viewing the scene and bring that mental image into your mind's workflow. Modern EVF's show this directly - with the live histogram overlay, the EVF is giving you exact In Real Time readouts of what the sensor will record and how. You use the EVF exposure brightness preview to get into the general realm of proper exposure and then use the histogram overlay to set your exact, desired shot - no guesswork on to what the camera's metering is doing. You know.

In the OVF workflow the only way to do this, the only way to know what the sensor actually recorded - and why it is done constantly - is to take the shot then examine the result. The "Chimp". EVF users almost never have to "chimp" not because of the EVF brightness preview, but because of the live histogram overlay. The same histogram that OVF users only get during the review - the "chimp" - EVF users got before the shot.

In difficult lighting situations an EVF is quite a bit more useful than the OVF because you can get the shot in one shot, versus the OVF workflow of taking the shot then reviewing. The moment may possibly be lost because the camera's metering interpreted the scene wrong, did not give you any idea except a group of 2 numbers that has low human-interpretable relationship to the scene's luminance, and you don't have the opportunity for that second shot. An EVF would have given you the same 2 numbers - shutter speed and aperture - plus an immediately identifiable warning that you were out of your personally chosen brightness zone for the final image (the EVF's brightness) and a directly readable graphic display of how the sensor will record the image based upon current exposure values (the histogram). One view, all data required to make an educated shot.
 
An EVF would seem to get a lot closer to what the sensor is capturing since it's a feed from that very sensor.
The feed is a very reduced version of what the sensor detects. There is no such reduction using an OVF: you see the scene, the sensor sees the scene and each uses it in its own way. With an EVF there's the camera JPG conversion, compression and loss of DR to get in the way.
Well it seems that as EVFs get better and better there's going to be less of a differntail there.
Whatever might happen in the future we're discussing what happens now.
It seems that neither one is really a what-you-see-is-what-you get type of deal... so each one of them in their own way is bother closer and less close to the actual result.
This is a new consideration. How close the final output is to the original scene depends on several factors, most of which concern the quality of the camera and editing software (whether in-camera or external) and are independent of how well the viewfinder represents the scene.

Insofar as the camera/software is good enough to give an accurate representation of the scene, as an OVF looks directly at the scene it will be just as accurate as the camera. The EVF, however, always shows less than the sensor records so - as I said in my earlier post - it does not get close to what the sensor is capturing. This was the only point under consideration in our original exchange.

It's possible, of course, that the camera is poor and doesn't give an accurate representation of the scene.
Interesting. So your camera doesn't blow highlights
My camera blows highlights if I set the exposure too high; it doesn't blow highlights if I set exposure correctly. In that respect it's like every other camera in the world. How I set exposure has nothing to do with the type of viewfinder; using an EVF can give a guide to the correct exposure but unless the camera's JPG conversion goes exactly to the bright end of the sensor's DR (most leave about 1.2 stop unused) it's only a guide.
That is true.

However, here are the things that OVF supporters deny:

1) an OVF is only a "guide" in that is shows nothing of what the camera will actually capture on the sensor - it tells you absolutely no information, no preview of what decision the metering has made and how that relates to the actual luminance of the scene.

OVF supporters constantly claim that the OVF has more DR than the EVF. True that. However, the sad reality is that the OVF has more DR than the sensor itself, and therefore cannot tell the user how said sensor will interpret the scene versus how the viewer's human eye did.

This means that you are dependent on the camera's metering to interpret the scene,
True. I remember shifting from the direct view of a rangefinder to the projected view of an SLR back in film days of yore. The SLR view cut out quite a bit of DR. I do lose a little DR with my EVF compared with an SLR view but find the EVF view is a much better indication of what I will actually get as my picture.
2) OVF supporters state that, by using the claim that an EVF will not give you a truly accurate exposure preview, the image preview isn't worthwhile. What OVF supporters constantly miss is that the EVF exposure preview (EVF image brightness) is just one of the tools available, they constantly miss the fact and advantage that modern EVF's overlay live data on the image.

In other words, EVF supporters constantly claim "exposure preview" and OVF supporters never believe that this is true. Between the EVF brightness preview and live histogram overlays, possibly even live 'blinkies' (highlilght overexposure warnings), an EVF user knows exactly what the sensor will capture. Forget about "what I see" (me, the operator), getting a good photograph is about understanding and interpreting how a scene will appear in the camera.
Exactly. The important thing is to know both the shortcomings and the advantages (longcomings? LOL) of your viewing system so you can compensate for the one and exploit the other for best results. For me, that means the EVF wins. On critical, difficult lighting px, I still chimp a bit, though.
 
I would like to raise a point that I rarely see adressed, and which most often is expressed as advantage for optical viewfinders: Scene Visualization. I would like to raise this point, because for me it works strictly the reverse way as for most people, or so it seems.
As far as scene visualization goes, I really like shooting with an EVF in black-and-white mode. (If you're a RAW shooter, many mirrorless cameras allow you to shoot RAW+JPEG, and if the JPEG is set for black-and-white then you're going to get black-and-white in the EVF.) I find that seeing the scene in black-and-white allows me to visualize the composition more abstractly, without the distraction of color, and in doing so I get better compositions...or I'm able to see the better composition more quickly in the viewfinder before taking the shot.
I also love shooting black and white for the same reasons.

cheers don
 
An EVF would seem to get a lot closer to what the sensor is capturing since it's a feed from that very sensor.
The feed is a very reduced version of what the sensor detects. There is no such reduction using an OVF: you see the scene, the sensor sees the scene and each uses it in its own way. With an EVF there's the camera JPG conversion, compression and loss of DR to get in the way.
Well it seems that as EVFs get better and better there's going to be less of a differntail there.
Whatever might happen in the future we're discussing what happens now.
It seems that neither one is really a what-you-see-is-what-you get type of deal... so each one of them in their own way is bother closer and less close to the actual result.
This is a new consideration. How close the final output is to the original scene depends on several factors, most of which concern the quality of the camera and editing software (whether in-camera or external) and are independent of how well the viewfinder represents the scene.

Insofar as the camera/software is good enough to give an accurate representation of the scene, as an OVF looks directly at the scene it will be just as accurate as the camera. The EVF, however, always shows less than the sensor records so - as I said in my earlier post - it does not get close to what the sensor is capturing. This was the only point under consideration in our original exchange.

It's possible, of course, that the camera is poor and doesn't give an accurate representation of the scene.
Interesting. So your camera doesn't blow highlights
My camera blows highlights if I set the exposure too high; it doesn't blow highlights if I set exposure correctly. In that respect it's like every other camera in the world. How I set exposure has nothing to do with the type of viewfinder; using an EVF can give a guide to the correct exposure but unless the camera's JPG conversion goes exactly to the bright end of the sensor's DR (most leave about 1.2 stop unused) it's only a guide.
As opposed to the zero feedback an OVF offers.
and can cover the full DR found in nature? Tell us more.
That depends on the DR of the scene. It can capture 13 stops, which is a lot more than the 9 stops that the EVF shows (at best)
. If the scene has a wider DR than that the sensor obviously can't capture it: that's one of the reasons I said "Insofar as the camera/software is good enough to give an accurate representation of the scene, as an OVF looks directly at the scene it will be just as accurate as the camera."
No it won't. For starters it will be visibly darker. Second - your camera was set with -1EV. How did you get that setting? It wasn't from feedback through the OVF (there is none). I suspect you shot, checked on the LCD, and possibly reshot. Am I right?
In that case the OVF doesn't give a good indication of the final output.
The OVF gives no indication of the final output. It's just a light tunnel, that shows a slightly dimmer view of what the camera is pointing at (or significantly dimmer view in some cases).
Wrong. It gives an indication of what the final output will be. The accuracy of that indication depends on the accuracy of the camera's imaging process. It won't be perfectly accurate but it will be more accurate than an EVF by the degree to which the scene DR lies between about 9 stops and 13 stops and the degree to which the total image process is accurate.

Take this shot - the scene I was shooting looked very much like this, both as I stood behind the camera and as I looked through the OVF. This is the output from what the sensor recorded.

37502b0569114eaf94e38cf4042893a4.jpg


So, what we're seeing here is 9 stops of DR (It's a JPEG, so it's showing ~9 stops.) To be more precise, we're seeing a 13stop image, compressed into a 9 stop jpeg.
The straight conversion of the raw file looks like this, which is about what an EVF would show. This is much further from the scene than what the OVF showed.

2248558df2f8409386055b51d034dd84.jpg


Now, what is to stop an EVF user simply boosting shadows, in the same way you did in post, and viewing an image that looks closer to your top one in their EVF?
--
---
Gerry
___________________________________________
First camera 1953, first Pentax 1985, first DSLR 2006
http://www.pbase.com/gerrywinterbourne
[email protected]
 
using face detect try and do that with your OVF ?

cheers don

--
Pentax k7,fz150,xz1 and a new oly m43 e-pL5 my toys.
Sorry Don, but face detect would not work on this shot - as far as I am aware no camera thus far can detect the profile as a 'face'. I am very neutral and very open to EVF and OVF, would really like to see OVF with EVF overlay as per request.... The technology marches on, EVF will (for sure) become more and more used - without arguing why but for their simplicity and low cost, the absence of precise calibration, mechanical noise, space they take (though this can be dissected in further details looking at all pros and cons...).
this is not what I have experienced, the camera doesn't need the eyes it seems to be the colours and may be shape that are detected as I have had the camera at times also pick up the colour of the leotards ? the camera also has eye detect but haven't tried it yet. only new to m43 after shooting with several dslrs. so far its in another class af accuracy is by FAR the best feature of the camera. best part about looking at the monitor is no leaning over the camera on a tripod and can set the camera to subjects eye level great for 5 yo dancers. also great for the back. just love the way the af follows the dancer around THE WHOLE screen and just hit the button.

cheers don
I don't know what DSLR you did have previously to comment. On the camera I currently use I don't have AF issues, the tracking works as designed using OVF. I have to say, in LV it's slow and definitely not usable for fast moving subjects. By saying that, it could be improved on future models (the bottom line is that Nikon did pioneer it with their 1 series, so the technology is there should they wish). I'm glad it works for you with your current gear, perhaps it's just the fact technology moved from where it was ... I cannot compare D7100 to my D80 when it comes to... anything actually. And I have no doubts the future will just bring more good news...
It would be less than a problem for traditional DSLR to have on-chip PDAF as well so the LV experience (in positive sense) can become a matter of choice with no penalty in AF speed, yet still retaining OVF option which is, in my view something we would consider 'natural experience'. In such case, an EVF option would be a matter of choice in plugging external VF in live feed (already provided through HDMI port). The best of both worlds....at the cost, of course.
this is the only negative with oly cameras as they don't live feed to hdmi only AV which im using and its pretty good not far off the k7 live hdmi.
EVF and OVF are personal preference, each with pros and cons. So, the photo like the one you provided as an 'example' had been taken many times before using any camera, some without VF at all - it's the shutter actuation at the right time. Whether the photographer needed to press the shutter button 5ms or 25ms earlier, it was AHEAD what either EVF or OVF had been showing at that time. Thus, we may be talking about the superiority of the photographer regardless of the technology, right?
I just look at the keeper rate using the m43 is much higher and much easier.
As said, good for you. Enjoy what works for you....
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Pentax k7,fz150,xz1 and a new oly m43 e-pL5 my toys.
 
I don't know what DSLR you did have previously to comment. On the camera I currently use I don't have AF issues, the tracking works as designed using OVF. I have to say, in LV it's slow and definitely not usable for fast moving subjects. By saying that, it could be improved on future models (the bottom line is that Nikon did pioneer it with their 1 series, so the technology is there should they wish).
Actually, since the Nikon 1 is a mirror less design, this comparison doesn't really work. The Nikon 1 is fast focusing using the LCD... or as fast as any mirrorless is, which is to say just the same as the speed with the EVF.



The only DSLRs that I'm aware of that are designed to have fast AF in LV are a few Canon models.

--

my flickr:
www.flickr.com/photos/128435329@N08/
 
The only DSLRs that I'm aware of that are designed to have fast AF in LV are a few Canon models.
Also, some discontinued models, which were actually significantly faster than the current Canons in live view mode...the Sony DSLR models from the A300 through the A580 were all identical in focus speed and performance in live view mode or OVF mode, including shooting at up to 7fps and continuous focus on moving subject (not that it's easy panning a big DSLR while viewing the LCD and following a fast target - but the camera could do it if you could).

Also the original Olympus DSLRs had a fast live view system which was fairly seamless between OVF and LCD and focused the same.

None are in production anymore, unfortunately. Oly went to all M4:3 mirrorless bodies, and Sony moved to their SLT models with EVFs.
 
I don't know what DSLR you did have previously to comment. On the camera I currently use I don't have AF issues, the tracking works as designed using OVF. I have to say, in LV it's slow and definitely not usable for fast moving subjects. By saying that, it could be improved on future models (the bottom line is that Nikon did pioneer it with their 1 series, so the technology is there should they wish).
Actually, since the Nikon 1 is a mirror less design, this comparison doesn't really work. The Nikon 1 is fast focusing using the LCD... or as fast as any mirrorless is, which is to say just the same as the speed with the EVF.

The only DSLRs that I'm aware of that are designed to have fast AF in LV are a few Canon models.

--

my flickr:
www.flickr.com/photos/128435329@N08/
Nikon 1 is comparable to OP, who is using m43 (on sensor PDAF). If Nikon would use PDAF on sensor with DSLR, switching to LV would be less painful regarding the AF speed is what I was referring to (as Canon did as you mentioned on some models).

Intention of my reply was to say PDAF in current DSLR is very capable which OP seems to underestimate in comparison to his m43 focusing abilities, with reference to his previous DSLR he may have used and claims were inferior to his current camera.

It's not an argument, rather comment.

cheers
 
An EVF would seem to get a lot closer to what the sensor is capturing since it's a feed from that very sensor.
The feed is a very reduced version of what the sensor detects. There is no such reduction using an OVF: you see the scene, the sensor sees the scene and each uses it in its own way. With an EVF there's the camera JPG conversion, compression and loss of DR to get in the way.
Well it seems that as EVFs get better and better there's going to be less of a differntail there.
Whatever might happen in the future we're discussing what happens now.
It seems that neither one is really a what-you-see-is-what-you get type of deal... so each one of them in their own way is bother closer and less close to the actual result.
This is a new consideration. How close the final output is to the original scene depends on several factors, most of which concern the quality of the camera and editing software (whether in-camera or external) and are independent of how well the viewfinder represents the scene.

Insofar as the camera/software is good enough to give an accurate representation of the scene, as an OVF looks directly at the scene it will be just as accurate as the camera. The EVF, however, always shows less than the sensor records so - as I said in my earlier post - it does not get close to what the sensor is capturing. This was the only point under consideration in our original exchange.

It's possible, of course, that the camera is poor and doesn't give an accurate representation of the scene.
Interesting. So your camera doesn't blow highlights
My camera blows highlights if I set the exposure too high; it doesn't blow highlights if I set exposure correctly. In that respect it's like every other camera in the world. How I set exposure has nothing to do with the type of viewfinder; using an EVF can give a guide to the correct exposure but unless the camera's JPG conversion goes exactly to the bright end of the sensor's DR (most leave about 1.2 stop unused) it's only a guide.
That is true.

However, here are the things that OVF supporters deny:

1) an OVF is only a "guide" in that is shows nothing of what the camera will actually capture on the sensor - it tells you absolutely no information, no preview of what decision the metering has made and how that relates to the actual luminance of the scene.

OVF supporters constantly claim that the OVF has more DR than the EVF. True that. However, the sad reality is that the OVF has more DR than the sensor itself, and therefore cannot tell the user how said sensor will interpret the scene versus how the viewer's human eye did.

This means that you are dependent on the camera's metering to interpret the scene, because what you are seeing has no relation to what the camera itself is doing, except for a inconclusive readout of a shutter speed and aperture choice. Part of the difficulty of using a camera is being able to understand if the camera's exposure is radially incorrect for the current requirements, and that brings us to point number (2).

2) OVF supporters state that, by using the claim that an EVF will not give you a truly accurate exposure preview, the image preview isn't worthwhile. What OVF supporters constantly miss is that the EVF exposure preview (EVF image brightness) is just one of the tools available, they constantly miss the fact and advantage that modern EVF's overlay live data on the image.

In other words, EVF supporters constantly claim "exposure preview" and OVF supporters never believe that this is true. Between the EVF brightness preview and live histogram overlays, possibly even live 'blinkies' (highlilght overexposure warnings), an EVF user knows exactly what the sensor will capture. Forget about "what I see" (me, the operator), getting a good photograph is about understanding and interpreting how a scene will appear in the camera.

From Zone system practitioners all the way to photography schools, the chant is understand how the camera is viewing the scene and bring that mental image into your mind's workflow. Modern EVF's show this directly - with the live histogram overlay, the EVF is giving you exact In Real Time readouts of what the sensor will record and how. You use the EVF exposure brightness preview to get into the general realm of proper exposure and then use the histogram overlay to set your exact, desired shot - no guesswork on to what the camera's metering is doing. You know.

In the OVF workflow the only way to do this, the only way to know what the sensor actually recorded - and why it is done constantly - is to take the shot then examine the result. The "Chimp". EVF users almost never have to "chimp" not because of the EVF brightness preview, but because of the live histogram overlay. The same histogram that OVF users only get during the review - the "chimp" - EVF users got before the shot.

In difficult lighting situations an EVF is quite a bit more useful than the OVF because you can get the shot in one shot, versus the OVF workflow of taking the shot then reviewing. The moment may possibly be lost because the camera's metering interpreted the scene wrong, did not give you any idea except a group of 2 numbers that has low human-interpretable relationship to the scene's luminance, and you don't have the opportunity for that second shot. An EVF would have given you the same 2 numbers - shutter speed and aperture - plus an immediately identifiable warning that you were out of your personally chosen brightness zone for the final image (the EVF's brightness) and a directly readable graphic display of how the sensor will record the image based upon current exposure values (the histogram). One view, all data required to make an educated shot.
...getting the exposure right? Its actually not difficult to learn how to judge an scene and read the meter.

If one is in constant angst - as it seems some EVF advocates are - they need live histogram overlays and what not before they dare to take a shot - maybe an EVF helps (or not, depending on how it is used). I know this must sound like a tale from another world, but when I shot slide film with minimal room for exposure error, almost all shots are successful, just by using the built in meter and some judgement.
 
Cut the crap. Just because someone uses the tools at hand doesn't mean they can't get good results without them. With an EVF and overlays it just gives the user that much more to work with. I started out with film cameras back in the 60's that didn't even have light meters built into them. AF, a pipe dream. Everything 100% manual and developing my own film and prints in a dark room. Today however I use a camera with an EVF, not because I have to but because it gives me that much more to work with. Just because you prefer using an OVF does not give you the right to denigrate people who use EVFs.
 
I am not a strong proponent for either electronic or optical viewfinders. Currently optical viewfinders have strong and clear advantages based in technology (blackout time, lag, +more) and which cannot be denied. However, these advantages may not be important for all photographers, therefore the choice between EVF and OVF is not as clear cut as proponents from either camp make it out to be.

I would like to raise a point that I rarely see adressed, and which most often is expressed as advantage for optical viewfinders: Scene Visualization. I would like to raise this point, because for me it works strictly the reverse way as for most people, or so it seems.

I often get surprised or disappointed at how a shot looks after taking it, compared with what I saw in the viewfinder. I have come to the conclusion that some part of this lies solely in the size of the viewfinder (the bigger the viewfinder, the more the output image matches with what I saw), but some part of it is also clearly based on real life looking "different" compared to a rasterized photo. It is hard to define what exactly makes the difference, but it is undeniably there, and electronic viewfinders or displays help me tremendously in achieving my photographic goals.

One of the best tools that I know of is my android tablet, which I can connect to my DSLR and see the live-view output on a big screen.

I realize that such a setup is unworkable for e.g. action shots, BIF or similar, and therefore optical viewfinders will probably never lose their place. But for slower paced work, electronic viewfinders and big screens can be a big advantage.

Does anyone else feel the same way?
Over the years, I've noticed that I have very poor ability to see a shot through the viewfinder no matter what kind. Visualization is best done for me outside of and apart from the camera - I make inquiries and question what I'm about to do without raising the camera to my eye. When I do raise it to my eye, I'm really just including and arranging/composing the elements into the frame that I've already decided need to go there. This seems to work better for me.
 
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