I will get around to that eventually. I just haven't really been out with both cameras yet and I'm trying to avoid doing the boring neighbourhood snap thing. Hopefully we'll get some other people running around with both cameras as well.
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TZ70 (ZS50) vs TZ60 (ZS40)
- Thread starter cainn24
- Start date
A GM1/5 or a GF7? Selfies or no selfies? EVF or no EVF? That's what it boils down to I think.
I'm a no selfies + EVF kind of person, so it's the GM5 for me
(unfortunately there is nothing for the people who love selfies and EVFs)
Lobalobo
Veteran Member
The GM5 seems a gem of a camera if you care about size, particularly with its two small zooms (both image stabilized) and built in EVF. (And I like the small external flash.) Like Cainn24, I have no use for selfies, personally, and almost never use the LCD for any purpose. But here's the thing. When I went to buy the camera and additional lens, I also tried to find the smallest possible pack that would fit it and the lens (and one additional lens I already own). And I did find a really small bag (a Lowepro 100). Even so, small is it was, carrying that bag and changing lenses would be a significantly more cumbersome experience than putting my LF1 in a SnapR 10 and hanging it over a shoulder--hiking and interacting with my family while traveling it is helpful (and more acceptable to them) if the camera essentially disappears when not in use. So I didn't buy the GM5 and will sacrifice the image quality. It's that disappearing act that makes these travel zooms so wonderful.A GM1/5 or a GF7? Selfies or no selfies? EVF or no EVF? That's what it boils down to I think.
I'm a no selfies + EVF kind of person, so it's the GM5 for me
(unfortunately there is nothing for the people who love selfies and EVFs)
Ianperegian
Veteran Member
The crops from the LHS are: 18MP downsized to 12MP using PSE Bicubic (no sharpening); 12MP OOC; 18MP downsized to 12MP using Lanczos.To be honest my eyes sort of glaze over in protest when it comes to such extreme levels of magnification (and such slight differences) but I can nonetheless observe that there is progressively more smoothing (particularly in the cap) as you move from right to left (backwards).Thanks for doing that. I wonder if you can see any differences in the enlarged comparison crops below? (I realise this is pixel peeping in the extreme.)
I will identify them later.
To my eyes the Lanczos downsampling has resulted in slightly more noise than bicubic. Since they were done on the same original JPG image I think that is a valid conclusion. OTOH, the centre crop is from a different image, and at this magnification there can be slight apparent differences showing up between successive shots. Therefore I don’t think the slight difference between the crop from bicubic downsampling and the centre crop is very significant. In other words, using bicubic to downsample to 12MP seems not significantly different from OOC 12MP.
That would be interesting, thanks. (I don’t yet have a TZ70 myself although I do plan to buy one.) Regarding the slight magnification difference, it seems from my calculations that in linear terms the TZ60 images are magnified by 0.6% relative to the TZ70, which is quite a small figure. I note that there are also slight differences between the models in the specs for the relative numbers of total to effective pixels: 95.8% effective pixels for the TZ60 and 94.5% for the TZ70. I don’t know whether that has any bearing on it.
Maybe it is simply a slight difference between the lenses, and perhaps it is within tolerance. At max zoom, the difference would represent 720mm for one camera and about 724mm for the other. I did a quick search and if the comment here is correct, then 0.6% is well within tolerance.
I hardly ever print images as I use my TZs mainly for travel and making movies from the stills and video clips. However, it is apparently common practice to upsize JPGs for printing. It seems PS “Bicubic Smoother” is generally used, although I notice that recently PS has introduced another method, as described here .I agree that you are always throwing away some detail when you downsample. But at the same time bayer interpolation is also essentially inventing detail (through intelligent guesswork). So I tend to see a moderate degree of downsampling (18 > 12MP for example) as no big deal. But more than that, upsampling the TZ70s output doesn't make sense to me because I would never ever do that for a real photo. In fact instead I'm always downsampling so it makes sense for me to investigate matters of IQ while heading in that same direction. In fact even on the rare occasion that I crop a TZ60 shot I still end up downsampling that portion of the image to get to my typical intended display size.
Of course those who want to crop more heavily, or make really really large prints, or just want to engage in an academic analysis of IQ instead of relating it to a real photographic workflow, might have a different perspective on the issue
I agree that people do certainly have different workflows, and that these tests reflect your own workflow and are therefore very relevant for you. However, your tests are different from the “usual” camera review tests in several ways. For example, from your testing it isn’t possible to put figures on the resolution, which IMHO does give a “handle” to work with, rather than just saying “this image appears to have more detail than that image”. I certainly accept though that you find that your tests tell you what you need to know for your workflow.
I think that all tests have their own limitations. Your test method has the advantage of keeping the tripod in the same position (same distance) for both camera models, so the framing (apart from that slight magnification difference) is always the same. OTOH, using a resolution chart it is necessary to change the distance of the cameras (with EFL and aperture kept the same) so that the scale line on the chart always has the same number of pixels in the image.
Ian
--
Ianperegian
http://www.ianperegian.com/
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windmillgolfer
Veteran Member
The GM5 is still at a high price. The GM1 would be fine and, for the articulated screen the GF6 or GF7 but I'm in norush as Ihave the LX7 + LVF2 as backup.
I don't think that my workflow is particularly unique. Almost everyone is effectively downsampling from 18MP in one way or another, and almost no-one is printing so large that they would need to upsample from 12MP.
In any case I shot a few 18MP JPEGs anyway, and now one has been provided. So everyone should be happy
Not quite. I adjusted the camera-to-subject distance so the framing was roughly the same, with the exception of the 720mm shots (although I didn't get it perfect, and more variance remains in the RAW renders presumably due to relative differences in the degree to which the RAW output is automatically cropped when RawTherapee/dcraw pulls it in [EDIT: actually I don't think this is the case -- I will have to investigate further]). I did this because it reflects real-world use. When you are in the middle of the zoom range slight differences in the degree of magnification at some particular focal length don't really matter because there's room to correct for it, either by feathering the zoom or by zooming a little with your feet. So it would be silly to disadvantage one camera over another because there most likely isn't one. But at full tele on the other hand there are times when you can't really get any closer so you're completely at the mercy of the available magnification. So it made some degree of sense to me to put the TZ70 at the slight disadvantage that it actually has.
Anyway, here is a TZ60 shot taken from the same tripod position that the TZ70 shots were taken from:
TZ60, ISO100, 12MP SOOC JPEG, same tripod position as the TZ70 shots of this same scene
As you can see there is a clear difference.
You keep the framing exactly the same though right?
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Lobalobo
Veteran Member
I didn't bother to upload these initially because to be honest I experienced a bout of upload fatigue, but the topic came up somewhere else so I feel inclined to provide them now. Same scene but a somewhat more challenging lighting scenario.
JPEGs first (the TZ60 shots are once again the result of configuring the camera for 12MP output):
TZ60, ISO400
TZ70, ISO400
TZ60, ISO1600
TZ70, ISO1600
I'd say that the TZ60 suffers a little more even at ISO 400 here which might be of some interest to people who like to use travel zoom cameras in dim lighting.
JPEGs first (the TZ60 shots are once again the result of configuring the camera for 12MP output):
TZ60, ISO400
TZ70, ISO400
TZ60, ISO1600
TZ70, ISO1600
I'd say that the TZ60 suffers a little more even at ISO 400 here which might be of some interest to people who like to use travel zoom cameras in dim lighting.
saudidave
Veteran Member
All this in depth analysis is fine and dandy. Doing tests on studio scenes is a bit misleading on occasions too, the real world is where its at.
I've had both cameras and was an avid supporter of the ZS40, albeit I sold it a couple of months ago before prices started to fall before the release of sand to fund the purchase of the ZS50 on it's release.
The ZS50 EVF with auto switch function is a massive improvement over the ZS40's. I can't compare the IQ directly with the ZS40 because its sold, but I can state that the FZ200 I have was massively better than the TZ40, by a country mile and the ZS50 is at least as good IQ as the FZ200, with a lot less colour fringing on tree branches and the light.
Take it from someone who has extensively used both the ZS40 and now the ZS50. The IQ & EVF are streets in front in the real world. End of. I wouldn't even consider the ZS40 if I were buying now, no way, the saving is minimal and the IQ/user experiences are inferior.
I now have an FZ200 going on ebay!
Dave
I've had both cameras and was an avid supporter of the ZS40, albeit I sold it a couple of months ago before prices started to fall before the release of sand to fund the purchase of the ZS50 on it's release.
The ZS50 EVF with auto switch function is a massive improvement over the ZS40's. I can't compare the IQ directly with the ZS40 because its sold, but I can state that the FZ200 I have was massively better than the TZ40, by a country mile and the ZS50 is at least as good IQ as the FZ200, with a lot less colour fringing on tree branches and the light.
Take it from someone who has extensively used both the ZS40 and now the ZS50. The IQ & EVF are streets in front in the real world. End of. I wouldn't even consider the ZS40 if I were buying now, no way, the saving is minimal and the IQ/user experiences are inferior.
I now have an FZ200 going on ebay!
Dave
I'd probably delete most of these shots normally because I find them a little boring, but they are nonetheless comparison shots involving varied subject matter so hopefully they will be useful.
Once again the TZ60 was configured for 12MP output:
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
I corrected the exposure for this next pair, but no other edits:
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
Once again the TZ60 was configured for 12MP output:
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
I corrected the exposure for this next pair, but no other edits:
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
DxO Optics Pro > TIFF > RawTherapee (RL Deconvolution sharpening) > 5MP
(5MP is a good size I think because it's not so large that it puts noise and/or lens aberrations in your face but it's large enough to provide a decent viewing experience even on a 4K monitor at 1:1)
Similar results are of course possible when working with the JPEGs but it's useful I think to see what can happen with a standardized external workflow as opposed to in-camera processing:
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
(5MP is a good size I think because it's not so large that it puts noise and/or lens aberrations in your face but it's large enough to provide a decent viewing experience even on a 4K monitor at 1:1)
Similar results are of course possible when working with the JPEGs but it's useful I think to see what can happen with a standardized external workflow as opposed to in-camera processing:
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
TZ60
TZ70
I learned this lesson from owning and constantly examining the performance of my FZ200 as I grew in my knowledge of the more technical aspects of photography and tried to reconcile what I was seeing with controlled testing performed by others. And the lesson teaches me this: all the images I have thus far posted in this thread, and all the images I might post in the future, serve to profile my sample and my sample only. Sample variation is a real phenomenon and can sometimes subsume the slight performance variations that tests like the ones done here reveal.
windmillgolfer
Veteran Member
Well, I did say I wasn't in a hurry. But then the Panasonic UK Outlet on eBay now has them in at £300 with the 12-32mm. I can sell my existing 12-32mm, which should reduce the net cost to circa £150 for a GM1 body. So, it'll be delivered on Monday
I'm thinking I can now take the GM1 to Italy, with 7-14mm and/or Samyang 7.5mm Fisheye, for superwide architectural shots, plus LX7/LVF and TZ60 (for the odd high zoom shot). Probably do not need the 12-32mm on that trip as the LX has it covered.
I'm thinking I can now take the GM1 to Italy, with 7-14mm and/or Samyang 7.5mm Fisheye, for superwide architectural shots, plus LX7/LVF and TZ60 (for the odd high zoom shot). Probably do not need the 12-32mm on that trip as the LX has it covered.
Lobalobo
Veteran Member
These posts are hugely helpful and have saved me $200 (the difference between the price of a new ZS50 and what I could get for my current ZS40). The images between the two cameras are indistinguishable to my eye (save for the fact that the ZS40 seemed to meter the ducks darker than the ZS50) and though there could perhaps be differences in print, my experience tells me that these would hardly be noticeable. Thanks again. I owe you a virtual beer. By the way, how did you achieve what appears true simultaneity of composition and exposure? Were the cameras mounted to board and shutter released at the same moment? Just curious.
theranman
Veteran Member
These middle-aged eyes can't tell a difference between the two either.
danielsonkin
Veteran Member
That could be because they (single duck closeups) were shot at different EV - .66 (ZS40) and .33 (ZS50). But I agree, they are very similar in IQ. Though as Dave mentioned, the other features may be a reason to upgrade as well. I am still on the fence. I think what I'll ultimately do, is when they are more plentiful on Amazon, I may just get one and see how it compares to the ZS40 based on my own personal experience. I still have a birthday coming up next week and I don't mind waiting a bit longer for my present.
Thanks for the comprehensive comparison, Cainn24.
Daniel
--
http://danielsonkin.smugmug.com/
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Lobalobo
Veteran Member
Thought some about that, and the GPS on the ZS40 is slow to acquire and gets lost indoors getting confused when it reemerges to open sky. That's been true for me on two ZS models now and I've about given up on using it because GeoTagging with my phone is more accurate and easy (when I remember to turn it on). This would suggest the upgrade for the better grip and better EVF, both of which are important features in my view. For me, though, I don't use the ZS often enough (preferring the smaller LF1 ordinarily) to make the change worthwhile. Others, of course will differ and if a ZS were my primary pocket camera I'd upgrade in a heartbeat.
No problem. I did it for myself as much as anyone else but if sharing the results benefits others then I consider it to be time even more well spent
Nothing fancy. I basically just had both cameras hanging off my wrist using wrist straps so switching between them was really quick and easy. I also took about 5-10 shots of each scene in burst mode and later selected one shot from each camera based both on sharpness and similarity.
As for the exposure I actually made a few mistakes but hopefully they aren't too tragic. I'm blaming it on a combination of Codeine (for an old knee injury that has flared up recently which I really shouldn't have been doing any significant walking on yet -- but I'm stubborn) and Cetirizine which I need to take almost every day for allergies but tends to jam up my brain a bit. So I was very relaxed, and had quite a good time, but I was also a bit spaced out
Hopefully that sounds like a reasonable excuse!
Heh.
PC Wheeler
Veteran Member
Helpful to me, too. I have neither but have a ZS50 on order. I'm very pleased by the results I see here so I look forward to its arrival -- TBD so far.
Andy Hewitt
Veteran Member
I've only just bought a TZ60, and have been interested in these too, although I couldn't afford the extra for the TZ70 anyway, but seeing all of these shows that the TZ60 is still a good choice, and there's no real need to worry about upgrading.
Cheers.
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