Olympus 45mm for close-up portraits?

Teru Kage

Leading Member
Messages
625
Solutions
1
Reaction score
110
Location
HK
I'm interested in shooting shallow depth of field close-portraits with the eyes in focus and gradually blurring the rest of the face. Can the Olympus 45mm f/1.8 accomplish this?

My previous experience was with the 85mm f/1.8 on my D700 and I really liked the effect. Obviously, the difference in sensor size will produce muted results, but how much blur can I expect from the Oly 45mm?

Sample pics would be greatly appeciated.
 
For close up, yes, the 45mm can do wide open

I can safely state that even the 25mm f1.8 can provide you what you want there

But to me the best would be the 75mm f1.8 , albeit at a longer distance

I just love the bokeh and the shallow DOF it creates, kind of Medium format like

Cheers,
 
You don't need to be very close to get shallow depth of field with Micro Four Thirds, this is from the other side of a table and only with the 20mm F/1.7. ISO1600 but I'm sure you'll agree that the 20mm does quite well wide open.

I'd say this lens is about good for 2metres or about 6ft from the subject to get really good isolation, with the 45mm adding more defocusing due to the change in perspective you would be able to stand further back to achieve the same shot and still get the same subject isolation.

Contrary to popular belief anything under F/4 is fine for portraits, even impromptu ones of mates playing games with cameras. I find the color rendering in challenging light all the same to be quite brilliant. I even had to tone down the warm colors on this shot.

Some mild noise reduction was applied but it still manages to retain all of the detail about as well as a Fuji out of camera JPEG would with X Trans applied.

7440ce720f1840dc9beb66c49ac90010.jpg
 
Last edited:
- Focal length is chosen to crop field of view and magnification
- Distance to subject is chosen to change perspective and magnification
OK
- Aperture is chosen to change exposure of environmental and flash light and acceptable depth of field with magnification
and shot noise, and diffraction
Those are depending the optics and values etc.
The amount of diffraction depends on the diameter of the aperture, and nothing else. The visibility of the effects of diffraction depends on (in decreasing order of importance) the amount of diffraction, the pixel pitch, and the dominance of other blurring factors that might hide diffraction.
Shot noise being pretty small affect, but still there in theory.
Shot noise is always the most dominant form of noise, though at very high ISOs or in dark shadow, read noise can also have a visible impact. Whether shot noise has small effect depends on exposure.
- Shutter speed is chosen to freeze subject motion on sensor area and exposure of environmental light
OK
- ISO is chosen for exposure and image quality
ISO does not affect exposure, just image brightness. Increasing ISO does not increase noise. Increasing ISO a bit may improve shadow discrimination, and/or may blow highlights.
That is the exposure triangle, [Shutter Speed <> Aperture <> Sensitivity].
The exposure triangle which includes ISO is an outdated and inaccurate analogy that leads to poorer pictures than what would result from an exposure triangle that included scene luminance instead of ISO and a brightness balance that had as its two parameters exposure and ISO.

ISO controls brigthness but does not directly affect exposure or shot noise.
Of course ISO affects to exposure as you need to compensate other two by it (or change scene brightness with flash, curtains etc).
Why do you need to compensate for it? If you have one bit of headroom, you can increase ISO a stop without changing shutter or aperture and get a better image. Yes, the SOOC Jpeg will be a stop too bright, but so what? PP the RAW and reduce image brightness by a stop. You'll end up with the same image as the OOC JPEG except it will have a stop less noise. (A bit more than a stop on Canon at a low-mid level ISO).
 
Wut? If you add ISO noise you will always have the ISO noise characteristics in the image no matter the brightness. It's not escapable by changing fairy settings like that, if you add more noise unnecessarily that noise will always be there.

In this day and age if anything its better to under expose slightly and adjust for brightness/contrast in post. You can gain 1 to 2 stops of light without any real effect on image quality. You also wont destroy your luminance and you'll protect your highlights like this at the same time.
 
Last edited:
Wut? If you add ISO noise you will always have the ISO noise characteristics in the image no matter the brightness.
Sure. If you add read noise it will just be insignificant.

Full well capacity on modern sensors approaches 90000 eV. So shot noise for a not quite half-full pixel at 40000 eV would be 200 eV. Read noise is typically around 3 eV. The total noise would be sqrt (40000 + 3*3) = 200.02 eV which is indistinguishable from the 200 eV shot noise. The read noise is always there, but you can't see it at all until the signal is several stops below the FWC.
It's not escapable by changing fairy settings like that, if you add more noise unnecessarily that noise will always be there.
How are we adding any noise? And WTF is ISO noise? Increasing ISO doesn't add any shot noise and doesn't necessarily add any read noise.

If you keep shutter and aperture constant and increase ISO, there will generally be no change in noise.

Nearly all the increase in noise (mis-)associated with an increase in ISO is in reality the increase in shot noise due to the reduced exposure that necessitated the increase in ISO. Most of the rest is the increase in significance of the probably constant read noise. In Canon sensors, increasing ISO at low ISO levels will magnify the signal and shot noise but not the read noise, thereby reducing the effect of read noise.
In this day and age if anything its better to under expose slightly and adjust for brightness/contrast in post.
Where do you get that idea?
You can gain 1 to 2 stops of light without any real effect on image quality.
You cannot gain any light in post.
You also wont destroy your luminance
How does one destroy luminance?
and you'll protect your highlights like this at the same time.
Yes, if you keep exposure low you will be less likely to blow highlights. And you will not gain as much shadow information. And your shot noise overall will be increased. The art of selecting exposure is to find the maximum one that doesn't destroy the highlight detail you want to maintain.
 
Over exposing your photos will destroy the natural lighting condition like nothing else will and its one of the hardest things to fix in post. Far safer to underexpose if anything and correct your exposure values in post processing than anything else. You can adjust your exposure values well enough in post processing even if your original light reading is out 1 to 2 EV with none/negligible image degradation. You can bring it back up to what it would have otherwise been at 0 in any decent RAW processing software.

As far as not adding read noise with the same exposure values as you increase ISO I'll call you out on that one also. At least that's not how it tends to work in reality. There is no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to ISO.

If there was such a thing with a free lunch with ISO, we wouldn't have this constant debate about signal/read noise and its characteristics in relation to the effect it has on images from different sensors and no one would bother going for a larger sensor to reduce ISO related noise issues. I'm sorry but that discussion speaks for itself.

If it was perfect and the effect was in relation purely to other factors we wouldn't even bother looking into the matter of reviewing photos at various ISO settings and everyone would be happy to walk around shooting photos at ISO6400, but they're not...

We accept that using more ISO creates noise no matter whether the settings other than ISO are the same, or otherwise and the fact that using more ISO adds noise to an image regardless and if I can see it myself taking three shots at the same aperture settings and shutter values with 3 different ISO settings your what they call in simple terms not correct.
 
Last edited:
100% crop ISO3200 vs ISO6400 same settings ignore the values, that was simply for reference so I cropped the same area identically. Surely the noise characteristics should be the same? Aside from brightness they're clearly not. ISO is a factor as with everything in your exposure triangle, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

e49467ac28bd4ba983eb93fe62d71bcf.jpg


41f31a721fe4419eb50d167749de8552.jpg
 
Last edited:
100% crop ISO3200 vs ISO6400 same settings ignore the values, that was simply for reference so I cropped the same area identically. Surely the noise characteristics should be the same? Aside from brightness they're clearly not. ISO is a factor as with everything in your exposure triangle, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

e49467ac28bd4ba983eb93fe62d71bcf.jpg


41f31a721fe4419eb50d167749de8552.jpg
The EXIF say 1/25 F/1.7 ISO3200 for both of them The second one looks like it was brightened in post.

I don't see any noise difference between the two. I see a brightness difference. The two images also have exactly the same capture time. You seem to be trying to pass off a brightened copy of the image as a separate image.
 
100% crop ISO3200 vs ISO6400 same settings ignore the values, that was simply for reference so I cropped the same area identically. Surely the noise characteristics should be the same? Aside from brightness they're clearly not. ISO is a factor as with everything in your exposure triangle, there is no such thing as a free lunch.
The EXIF say 1/25 F/1.7 ISO3200 for both of them The second one looks like it was brightened in post.

I don't see any noise difference between the two. I see a brightness difference. The two images also have exactly the same capture time. You seem to be trying to pass off a brightened copy of the image as a separate image.
The only reason it has the same exif is because I used Photoshop to do a 100% crop of the same section of a photo at two different ISOs. I couldn't have really been bothered to wait for a full sized 20mb JPEG to upload here twice just to prove the point that all things being equal doesn't resolve the same result.

If you want to use the fact that I cut and paste two layers and overlapped them for an excuse that's your prerogative. I'm not playing games in fact I went to great lengths to ensure that the image crop was exactly the same to avoid these games.

Make of it what you will. It just so happened that it retained the ISO settings from the IS3200 file I overlaid it with.
 
Last edited:
Over exposing your photos will destroy the natural lighting condition like nothing else will and its one of the hardest things to fix in post.
I have no idea what you mean by "destroy the natural lighting condition".

However, I will agree that over-exposing or over-brightening your photos with too high an ISO is one of the hardest things to fix in post. In this context, "over-exposing" means exposing such that pixels that would, at a lower exposure, have contained data you wished to keep were instead blown. Over brightening means setting the ISO so high that pixels that, at a lower ISO, would have shown detail you wish to keep are instead blown. Note that in this context, whether a photo is over-exposed or over-brightened has nothing to do with whether the exposure and brightening from ISO results in a picture with a different brightness than that which the camera's meter suggested. A picture taken below the metered exposure value may be over-exposed.

Something that is just as hard to fix in post is under-exposure. In this context, under-exposure means exposing or failing to add gain such that pixels in shadow areas that would have contained shadow detail you wished to capture at a higher exposure or ISO instead do not have differentiated values.

When a single photograph has both areas that are under-exposed and areas that are over-exposed, then the scene has more DR than the camera. In such a case the photographer either has to choose which desired detail will remain uncaptured, or has to resort to multiple-exposure HDR techniques.

When a single photograph has areas that are over-exposed and no areas that are less than a third of a stop from being underexposed, that image is overexposed. When a single photograph has areas that are under-exposed and no areas that are less than a third of a stop from being over-exposed, the image is under-exposed.
Far safer to underexpose if anything and correct your exposure values in post processing than anything else.
If you underexpose, you create two problems: you lose detail in shadow areas and you get more shot noise than is necessary. If you overexpose, you get one problem: you lose detail in highlights.
You can adjust your exposure values well enough in post processing even if your original light reading is out 1 to 2 EV with none/negligible image degradation.
You cannot adjust exposure values in post. You can only adjust brightness. Adjusting brightness does not create any new data, it just shifts data to different parts of the bit-array available to a pixel. In the process of doing such adjustments, it is possible to lose data.
You can bring it back up to what it would have otherwise been at 0 in any decent RAW processing software.
No RAW processing software can take multiple pixels which all have the same data value and create the same differentiation between them that would have been present if either the exposure or the ISO had been higher.
As far as not adding read noise with the same exposure values as you increase ISO I'll call you out on that one also. At least that's not how it tends to work in reality. There is no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to ISO.
I suspect you don't know how ISO works. If you want to "call me on that", you're going to have to show how and why increasing ISO adds read noise. Actual real-world data would be helpful. Here's a hint for you. Data such as DXO's SNR 18% graphs doesn't show increasing read noise with increasing ISO, It shows decreasing SNR from a decrease in signal greater than the corresponding decrease in shot noise.
If there was such a thing with a free lunch with ISO, we wouldn't have this constant debate about signal/read noise and its characteristics in relation to the effect it has on images from different sensors and no one would bother going for a larger sensor to reduce ISO related noise issues.
Bigger sensors don't reduce ISO-related noise issues. Bigger sensors reduce shot noise. They do this by capturing more light for a given exposure.
I'm sorry but that discussion speaks for itself.
I'm afraid you don't understand that discussion.
If it was perfect and the effect was in relation purely to other factors we wouldn't even bother looking into the matter of reviewing photos at various ISO settings and everyone would be happy to walk around shooting photos at ISO6400, but they're not...
Correlation is not causation. There is a correlation between ISO and exposure. When the exposure is low, people use high ISO's to get desired image brightness. The low exposure causes both the lower SNR and the need for a higher ISO.
We accept that using more ISO creates noise
No we don't. Only people who don't understand what is going on "accept" such a thing.
no matter whether the settings other than ISO are the same, or otherwise and the fact that using more ISO adds noise to an image
It isn't a fact.
regardless and if I can see it myself taking three shots at the same aperture settings and shutter values with 3 different ISO settings your what they call in simple terms not correct.
Except you cannot see that. All you can see is a difference in brightness.
 
100% crop ISO3200 vs ISO6400 same settings ignore the values, that was simply for reference so I cropped the same area identically. Surely the noise characteristics should be the same? Aside from brightness they're clearly not. ISO is a factor as with everything in your exposure triangle, there is no such thing as a free lunch.
The EXIF say 1/25 F/1.7 ISO3200 for both of them The second one looks like it was brightened in post.

I don't see any noise difference between the two. I see a brightness difference. The two images also have exactly the same capture time. You seem to be trying to pass off a brightened copy of the image as a separate image.
The only reason it has the same exif is because I used Photoshop to do a 100% crop of the same section of a photo at two different ISOs.
I can't actually tell from the way you worded this whether you took one photo or two. The usage "a photo" seems to imply only one. If they are both crops from the same photo, then that photo only had one ISO. You may have done a manipulation on that photo in Photoshop that simulated changing the ISO, but you didn't actually change the ISO. All you did was change the brightness.

If they are crops from two different photographs, which for some unknown reason you have overlaid on the same image, you have come close to proving the opposite of your contention. There is no apparent difference in noise between the two versions of the shot. I don't know what the actual noise in the two photos is because I don't have the tools to measure it,and that's why I say "come close to proving the opposite" rather than "proved the opposite".
I couldn't have really been bothered to wait for a full sized 20mb JPEG to upload here twice just to prove the point that all things being equal doesn't resolve the same result.
Showing two edits of the same image proves nothing about the issue at hand, but it is strongly suggestive of your lack of understanding of the issue.
If you want to use the fact that I cut and paste two layers and overlapped them for an excuse that's your prerogative. I'm not playing games
I'm prepared to believe you weren't intentionally trying to deceive. I just think it is obvious from this that you don't understand what noise really is. Neither can you tell the difference between the same noise at two brightness levels and different levels of noise.

If you want to prove that changing ISO while leaving shutter and aperture constant changes noise, then you have to do two things:
  1. Take two or more separate photos with a camera of a scene under identical illumination, holding aperture and shutter constant but varying ISO. Use ISOs near the middle of the camera's range, and exposures that are neither too bright nor too dark. Use a scene that doesn't mask noise. A grey card might be appropriate.
  2. Perform a statistical analysis of the variation of pixel values in each image to calculate the noise level of the image.
If you cannot do this, but you do actually have two or more images of the same scene under the same illumination, what you could do is take very similar crops from each, without overlaying them on anything in common, then normalize the brightness between them in some editor, and then compare them side by side without the brightness difference from the ISO change throwing off your judgement of noise levels.
in fact I went to great lengths to ensure that the image crop was exactly the same to avoid these games.

Make of it what you will. It just so happened that it retained the ISO settings from the IS3200 file I overlaid it with.
 
Last edited:
We're dancing around the facts, there was two photos... stop trying to avoid what i have stated obviously three times now.
  1. I have done everything you've said above...
  2. it's obvious to me now that you do not understand simple English.
  3. ISO3200 is near the middle of the cameras ISO range
Stop wasting time talking around the subject like you actually think I don't know what I posted above.
  • If you cannot understand how to use photoshop that's not my fault.
  • If you cannot see that it was two images copied into seperate layers of the same document you simply don't understand the way photoshop works and that's not my fault
Except I have done everything you've said above so clearly you're just talking crap in order to waste time rather than discussing the image crops I've clearly posted above.
 
Last edited:
We're dancing around the facts, there was two photos... stop trying to avoid what i have stated obviously three times now.
  1. I have done everything you've said above...
  2. it's obvious to me now that you do not understand simple English.
  3. ISO3200 is near the middle of the cameras ISO range
Stop wasting time talking around the subject like you actually think I don't know what I posted above.
  • If you cannot understand how to use photoshop that's not my fault.
  • If you cannot see that it was two images copied into seperate layers of the same document you simply don't understand the way photoshop works and that's not my fault
Except I have done everything you've said above so clearly you're just talking crap in order to waste time rather than discussing the image crops I've clearly posted above.
Really? How did you calculate the SNR in each photo?
 
I have provided the crops there if you want to analyse the SNR be my guest. You will see no matter which way you normalise the brightness there is more noise in one image then the other. The only thing that is being proven with the above is that you simply do not understand how photo editing software works.

I have provided you with two 100% crops, of the same image from the same perspective, one at ISO3200 the other at ISO6400.

For whatever reason you cannot understand simple English.
 
Last edited:
I have provided the crops there if you want to analyse the SNR be my guest. You will see no matter which way you normalise the brightness there is more noise in one image then the other.
I see no such thing. But what you or I see is irrelevant. We need to calculate the noise from the pixel values and I don't have the tools to do so. I doubt you do either.

Can you even give a description of the mechanism by which increasing the ISO supposedly increases noise in an image?

Can you describe what shot noise is, and how a change in exposure affect the SNR due to shot noise? Can you explain why the DR graph of a 5DIII is almost flat from ISO 100 to ISO 800, while that of a Nikon D600 is almost the same slope from ISO 100 to ISO 800 as it is from ISO800 to ISO 25600? What does the slope of the D600 graph vs the slope of the 5DII graph from ISO 100 to ISO 800 tell us about differences in read noise between the two cameras? Most importantly for our discussion, what does the flatness of the 5DIII graph tell us about how increasing ISO affects read noise?
 
Last edited:
Wut? If you add ISO noise you will always have the ISO noise characteristics in the image no matter the brightness. It's not escapable by changing fairy settings like that, if you add more noise unnecessarily that noise will always be there.

In this day and age if anything its better to under expose slightly and adjust for brightness/contrast in post. You can gain 1 to 2 stops of light without any real effect on image quality. You also wont destroy your luminance and you'll protect your highlights like this at the same time.
...aotbe and with (almost certainly) a few rare, perverse exceptions.

If you disagree, I would invite you to explain, in detail, the exact mechanism by which raising ISO increases image noise as long as shutter speed, lens transmission and scene luminance are held constant.

Feel free to link to outside sources that support your contention, if you prefer that over trying to explain the mechanism on your own.

TIA...
 
Last edited:
Wut? If you add ISO noise you will always have the ISO noise characteristics in the image no matter the brightness. It's not escapable by changing fairy settings like that, if you add more noise unnecessarily that noise will always be there.

In this day and age if anything its better to under expose slightly and adjust for brightness/contrast in post. You can gain 1 to 2 stops of light without any real effect on image quality. You also wont destroy your luminance and you'll protect your highlights like this at the same time.
...aotbe and with (almost certainly) a few rare, perverse exceptions.

If you disagree, I would invite you to explain, in detail, the exact mechanism by which raising ISO increases image noise as long as shutter speed, lens transmission and scene luminance are held constant.

Feel free to link to outside sources that support your contention, if you prefer that over trying to explain the mechanism on your own.

TIA...
Hi tex,

That's news to me. The acronym "aotbe" I mean. ;-) Never seen that before although I realize now that it is, as it were, plain English, unlike ceteris paribus. ;-)

The rest sounds as familiar as it is correct. Let me just add for the record that (as I know you are already aware) if ISO changes anything at all with regard to noise, aotbe, it does so by reducing (not increasing) the read noise (how much, if at all, being dependent on the camera/sensor and what specific points in the ISO range we are comparing).
 
I have provided the crops there if you want to analyse the SNR be my guest. You will see no matter which way you normalise the brightness there is more noise in one image then the other.
I see no such thing. But what you or I see is irrelevant. We need to calculate the noise from the pixel values and I don't have the tools to do so. I doubt you do either.

Can you even give a description of the mechanism by which increasing the ISO supposedly increases noise in an image?

Can you describe what shot noise is, and how a change in exposure affect the SNR due to shot noise? Can you explain why the DR graph of a 5DIII is almost flat from ISO 100 to ISO 800, while that of a Nikon D600 is almost the same slope from ISO 100 to ISO 800 as it is from ISO800 to ISO 25600? What does the slope of the D600 graph vs the slope of the 5DII graph from ISO 100 to ISO 800 tell us about differences in read noise between the two cameras? Most importantly for our discussion, what does the flatness of the 5DIII graph tell us about how increasing ISO affects read noise?
What I have provided is one image at ISO3200 and another at ISO6400, you can do the rest, what happens when you use photoshop and work within the same document is that EXIF information gets attached despite it being saved in two different states.

I have provided a pixel to pixel 100% crop.

I don't have time to go into this at this point in time as I'm heading out for the night. Feel free to do your own analysis and report back.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top