why buying Canon 5DS instead of 5DS R

now, why canon wouldn't add a feature that photographer could turn off the AA filter if one desired?
They do!

They call it the "A value", or aperture to most of us.

With the 4um pixel the AA filter is pretty much redundant by f/16 and aliasing is near impossible with almost all Canon lenses.
Hmm..., see the chart here, same pixel density. And this is WITH an AA filter!zoom in to the chart
Note the aperture that image was taken with.

AA filters are not perfect. As I explained in the other thread you have responded to, they will pass higher spatial frequencies if the lens can reproduce them, which some good optics at low f/#s can achieve. So even with a strong AA filter, a good lens will STILL create aliasing - as your example demonstrates.

These arguments remind me of medieval philosophers debating how many angels can stand on the sharp end of a pin. Can an angel balance on a molecule, an atom, a proton, an electron, a gluon and so on? :-)

A traditional AA filter is not a panacea against aliasing and moire - never has been and never will be. It helps, but it can never be perfect. However its "value" or usefulness degrades in proportion to pixel size because diffraction and lens aberrations create their own AA effect. Unlike the AA filter, both of these attenuate with spatial frequency so are, in that sense, self limiting.

Some day, not so far in the future, pixels will be so dense that no lens will be able to resolve individual pixels at any aperture and the AA filter will be, theoretically and practically, completely redundant. We are now in a transition phase, where taste and working aperture make some difference between what is preferable to any user.

I would rather control aliasing with choice of aperture - after all, we have evolved to see diffraction in our own eyes so it isn't objectionable - rather than have an engineer from another culture impose his ideal on me. But that depends on how well Canon have implemented the "compensation". Nikon didn't seem to achieve what was, in principle, possible and so they have decided to remove the AA filter entirely in response to user choice.

Then again there is the Pentax approach - and the potential for completely flexible, self limiting, AA filtering. Its not too difficult to see that being programmed to automatically adjust for the lens and its shooting aperture... ;-)

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Its RKM
 
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It's a valid point, however in this case, it's the customers who made the choice for Nikon. Most 36 mp users does not want AA filter.
They only think they don't. They're sharpness freaks that think they would rather have a sharp-looking image full of crap than a slightly softer image full of real data.
Nah, they're dynamic range freaks - that other parameter that Canon can't deliver that every non-Canon shooter find useful. ;-)

Really guys, at 50Mp the AA-no-AA filter argument is only valid with the sharpest lenses at their aperture sweet spot. Stop down (diffraction) or up (aberrations) and it disappears - and the loss is no more than having an AA filter in the first place.
This shows the affect of diffraction at different f/stops, comparing the D800 and D800e:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/22
Can you honestly say you can see any difference at f/11?

And this is on 36Mp - at what aperture will the difference be nulled on a >50Mp sensor?
Have you seen this, how the AAless D800 sharpens up to be similar to the D800e:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/27
Yes, but you are conflating two different issues. Sharpening an image to appear like it came from a higher resolution source is not the same as introducing aliasing.
 
Some day, not so far in the future, pixels will be so dense that no lens will be able to resolve individual pixels at any aperture and the AA filter will be, theoretically and practically, completely redundant.
That will occur in the gigapixel range for full-frame sensors (depending on f-stop, but you should obviously design for the worse case, which is a fast f-stop).
 
It's a valid point, however in this case, it's the customers who made the choice for Nikon. Most 36 mp users does not want AA filter.
They only think they don't. They're sharpness freaks that think they would rather have a sharp-looking image full of crap than a slightly softer image full of real data.
Nah, they're dynamic range freaks - that other parameter that Canon can't deliver that every non-Canon shooter find useful. ;-)

Really guys, at 50Mp the AA-no-AA filter argument is only valid with the sharpest lenses at their aperture sweet spot. Stop down (diffraction) or up (aberrations) and it disappears - and the loss is no more than having an AA filter in the first place.
This shows the affect of diffraction at different f/stops, comparing the D800 and D800e:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/22
Can you honestly say you can see any difference at f/11?
Not really, and that's pretty handy too. It means that an AA filter isn't really necessary on a 36MP sensor at f/11 and above. That's handy because I've never heard of a full-frame shooter shooting at any f-stop faster than f/11.

So, let's say f/11 is the magic bullet for 36MP on full-frame. That means that, at f/2.8, we need 556MP [(11/2.8)^2*36]. Oh, and there are lenses faster than that, just so you know.

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Lee Jay
 
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I would rather control aliasing with choice of aperture - after all, we have evolved to see diffraction in our own eyes so it isn't objectionable - rather than have an engineer from another culture impose his ideal on me.
I would rather not. I would not buy a camera with a high resolution sensor that would force me to shoot at soft apertures. I prefer to use the aperture for different purposes.
 
Not really, and that's pretty handy too. It means that an AA filter isn't really necessary on a 36MP sensor at f/11 and above. That's handy because I've never heard of a full-frame shooter shooting at any f-stop faster than f/11.
You've got to be kidding! I shoot full frame wide open all the time. So do zillions of others. Were your statement correct, there'd be no market for such lenses as the 50mm f/1.2 or the 85mm f/1.2 -- or any other lens faster than f/2.8.
So, let's say f/11 is the magic bullet for 36MP on full-frame. That means that, at f/2.8, we need 556MP [(11/2.8)^2*36]. Oh, and there are lenses faster than that, just so you know.
Oh, wait. When you said faster, above, you apparently meant slower. :)
 
Right now, I'm strongly leaning toward the idea that a weak AA is the best way to go. The 5Ds will probably have a weak AA, whereas the 5D3 probably has a strong AA, since Canon seemed to tweak it for best video instead of best still imagery.
That's probably more to do with using the full data, rather than every third raster like the 5D Mark II uses.
 
Not really, and that's pretty handy too. It means that an AA filter isn't really necessary on a 36MP sensor at f/11 and above. That's handy because I've never heard of a full-frame shooter shooting at any f-stop faster than f/11.
You've got to be kidding! I shoot full frame wide open all the time. So do zillions of others. Were your statement correct, there'd be no market for such lenses as the 50mm f/1.2 or the 85mm f/1.2 -- or any other lens faster than f/2.8.
So, let's say f/11 is the magic bullet for 36MP on full-frame. That means that, at f/2.8, we need 556MP [(11/2.8)^2*36]. Oh, and there are lenses faster than that, just so you know.
Oh, wait. When you said faster, above, you apparently meant slower. :)
No, but the dripping sarcasm in my first statement didn't seem to get through.

I shoot my 35/1.4L on full-frame all the time, and 99% of the shots I have with it are from f/2 or faster.
 
Having never used a 5D Mark III, I have no comment.
 
I think Nikon also cancel the AA filter if I remember correctly but its been a while since I read about the 800s. Normally I think they have one AA filter go one direction and another one go 90deg. They are putting the second one the reverse of the first one to cancel out the AA. However I am only about 50% sure since this is from memory
AA filter is gone on the 810 which is current. They had the cancellation concept on the D800E and full AA on the D800.
 
I would rather control aliasing with choice of aperture - after all, we have evolved to see diffraction in our own eyes so it isn't objectionable - rather than have an engineer from another culture impose his ideal on me.
I would rather not. I would not buy a camera with a high resolution sensor that would force me to shoot at soft apertures.
So instead you would prefer to buy a camera which has been deliberately softened already so that you can't use sharp apertures? That is what the choice comes down to.
 
Some day, not so far in the future, pixels will be so dense that no lens will be able to resolve individual pixels at any aperture and the AA filter will be, theoretically and practically, completely redundant.
That will occur in the gigapixel range for full-frame sensors (depending on f-stop, but you should obviously design for the worse case, which is a fast f-stop).
Designing for practical lenses it isn't that far off, perhaps a few hundred Mp. According to Jack Hogan's assessment of test images from the Olympus EM-5II, it has no aliasing at all in its 64Mp mode - which would be 256Mp in FF. http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55250340

Of course, getting rid of the lower Nyquist frequencies of the individual colours in the BFA, as Olympus have done, makes the worst effects of aliasing a whole lot easier to deal with. In addition, oversampling by microscan, as Olympus have also done, virtually eliminates luminance aliasing whilst improving resolution; as opposed to the AA filter which sacrifices resolution and still doesn't eliminate aliasing entirely.

The effect of microscan on aliasing is something we pioneered almost 30 years ago... http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrary.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=1244123

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Its RKM
 
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It's a valid point, however in this case, it's the customers who made the choice for Nikon. Most 36 mp users does not want AA filter.
They only think they don't. They're sharpness freaks that think they would rather have a sharp-looking image full of crap than a slightly softer image full of real data.
Nah, they're dynamic range freaks - that other parameter that Canon can't deliver that every non-Canon shooter find useful. ;-)

Really guys, at 50Mp the AA-no-AA filter argument is only valid with the sharpest lenses at their aperture sweet spot. Stop down (diffraction) or up (aberrations) and it disappears - and the loss is no more than having an AA filter in the first place.
This shows the affect of diffraction at different f/stops, comparing the D800 and D800e:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/22
Can you honestly say you can see any difference at f/11?
Not really, and that's pretty handy too. It means that an AA filter isn't really necessary on a 36MP sensor at f/11 and above. That's handy because I've never heard of a full-frame shooter shooting at any f-stop faster than f/11.

So, let's say f/11 is the magic bullet for 36MP on full-frame. That means that, at f/2.8, we need 556MP [(11/2.8)^2*36]. Oh, and there are lenses faster than that, just so you know.
Faster doesn't mean they have more resolution, just so you know.
 
There are two extra filters in the Canon 5Ds R and the now old Nikon D800e that don't do anything except decrease sharpening and light.
They certainly do something - if nothing else, they are part of the optical design that Canon lenses need.
I'd rather have nothing in the light path at all, like Nikon did with the D810.
If you have nothing in the light path at all then you better have some means of dealiing with resulting massively under-corrected spherical aberration, not to mention the shift in focus.

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Its RKM
 
Not really, and that's pretty handy too. It means that an AA filter isn't really necessary on a 36MP sensor at f/11 and above. That's handy because I've never heard of a full-frame shooter shooting at any f-stop faster than f/11.
You've got to be kidding! I shoot full frame wide open all the time. So do zillions of others. Were your statement correct, there'd be no market for such lenses as the 50mm f/1.2 or the 85mm f/1.2 -- or any other lens faster than f/2.8.
Aberrations work just as well as diffraction at suppressing aliasing. Neither of the two lenses you specified have particularly good resolution wide open. You should have no fear of aliasing on the 5sR with those lenses wide open. ;-)
 
I would rather control aliasing with choice of aperture - after all, we have evolved to see diffraction in our own eyes so it isn't objectionable - rather than have an engineer from another culture impose his ideal on me.
I would rather not. I would not buy a camera with a high resolution sensor that would force me to shoot at soft apertures.
So instead you would prefer to buy a camera which has been deliberately softened already so that you can't use sharp apertures? That is what the choice comes down to.
 
Faster doesn't mean they have more resolution, just so you know.
It means less softness from diffraction.
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Victor Engel
 
I would rather control aliasing with choice of aperture - after all, we have evolved to see diffraction in our own eyes so it isn't objectionable - rather than have an engineer from another culture impose his ideal on me.
I would rather not. I would not buy a camera with a high resolution sensor that would force me to shoot at soft apertures.
So instead you would prefer to buy a camera which has been deliberately softened already so that you can't use sharp apertures? That is what the choice comes down to.
I can still use sharp apertures. I am doing it every day.
 

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