It's not about CCD or CMOS

Rodrigue Zahr · Feb 15, 2015

uhoh07 said:
Godfrey said:

uhoh07 said:

I've heard this same tale of CCD über CMOS superiority from people since the M240 was first announced. I'm terribly sorry, but it makes no sense at all to me. I've taken dozens of M240 raw files from other people and made them match the color palette of the M9 in ten minutes.

Click to expand...

G

Click to expand...

You will never make the 50 Lux or 28 Cron perform the same on the 240. Many have tried.

As to your editing your way to M9 color palette...one of the things I love about the M9 is how nice it can do with very very little editing.

Any time I have to tweak a color palette, I think....there goes another precious few minutes of life.

Ten minutes on an image...yikes! For me that's agony. My favorite is the image which comes out just the way I like it...untouched.

I think I did spend 20 seconds on this one:

And yes, dedicated 240 shooters report increased flare compared to M9, with various lenses, including APO 50.

If that's not an issue for you, and I think many are fine with it--or oblivious, great, but it's something shooters should know before leaping.

Godfrey said:

I have a Sony A7 body that I use mostly with Leica R lenses. Yes, it's color fidelity is much much better than the M9. TG

Click to expand...

Sorry could not disagree more. I have many thousands of frames with both A7 and A7r and many lenses. Now I have a A7.mod.

Sony color is not close to M9 with modern Leica or Zeiss glass. Quite muddy in comparison, and RAW files are atrocious, lossy and a night mare in comparison to M9 RAWs which are very friendly for me in Lightroom.

Of course M9 is very sensitive to light source and color and WB will vary, but so is the A7, perhaps more so. For daylight work I have never seen a digital camera with better color fidelity than the M9 and many others feel the same way.

I can't agree more.
The first image you posted above is a clear example. Take that shot using any other system with even the same lens and you'll never see that result before at least 5 minutes of sliders sliding in PP.
5 minutes if you're a PP master, it could take forever if you're anything less than Pro in the PP Arena.
I do that kind of PP to pictures that are gonna go to print for the magazine I work for, but when it comes to personal images, having to manipulate a file that much in order to get there where I like my image to be is not fun. Fun it to have it printed on the sensor and later shown on my computer screen the way, or almost, I like it to be or even better. That's something only the M9 was able to give me.

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Godfrey · Feb 15, 2015

uhoh07 said:
Any time I have to tweak a color palette, I think....there goes another precious few minutes of life.

Hmm. I like editing my photos, to me it's one of the fun parts of doing photography.

uhoh07 said:
Sony color is not close to M9 with modern Leica or Zeiss glass. Quite muddy in comparison, and RAW files are atrocious, lossy and a night mare in comparison to M9 RAWs which are very friendly for me in Lightroom.

Of course M9 is very sensitive to light source and color and WB will vary, but so is the A7, perhaps more so. For daylight work I have never seen a digital camera with better color fidelity than the M9 ...

Sorry, I disagree completely. I've not gotten any JPEGs out of the M9, daylight or not, that I could live with without editing them and adjusting their color balance. For me, the M9 is a raw-only camera.

G

Godfrey · Feb 15, 2015

Rodrigue Zahr said:
Rodrigue Zahr said:

I think I did spend 20 seconds on this one:

Click to expand...

I can't agree more.
The first image you posted above is a clear example. Take that shot using any other system with even the same lens and you'll never see that result before at least 5 minutes of sliders sliding in PP.
5 minutes if you're a PP master, it could take forever if you're anything less than Pro in the PP Arena.
I do that kind of PP to pictures that are gonna go to print for the magazine I work for, but when it comes to personal images, having to manipulate a file that much in order to get there where I like my image to be is not fun. Fun it to have it printed on the sensor and later shown on my computer screen the way, or almost, I like it to be or even better. That's something only the M9 was able to give me.

Neither of those photos does anything for me at all. The colors are oversaturated and unrealistic. The Zone II to IV values are dark and muddy. The second has too much magenta in the highlights, and a blue tinge in the shadows.

They don't convince me of the superiority of the M9 sensor at all. They kind of remind me of poorly exposed Ektachrome film.

Sorry.

G

borgein · Feb 15, 2015

Interesting subjects and happenings doesn't care about sensor technology.
The same goes for uninteresting subjects. They don't look more interesting with a better or worse sensor either.

sgoldswo · Feb 15, 2015

uhoh07 said:
Godfrey said:

uhoh07 said:

I've heard this same tale of CCD über CMOS superiority from people since the M240 was first announced. I'm terribly sorry, but it makes no sense at all to me. I've taken dozens of M240 raw files from other people and made them match the color palette of the M9 in ten minutes.

Click to expand...

G

Click to expand...

You will never make the 50 Lux or 28 Cron perform the same on the 240. Many have tried.

you can debate results between you until the cows come home, but these are two of my favourite lenses on the M240. If the Lux doesn't perform its down to my failing eyesight :-(

As to your editing your way to M9 color palette...one of the things I love about the M9 is how nice it can do with very very little editing. i found this true in Aperture said:
Any time I have to tweak a color palette, I think....there goes another precious few minutes of life.

totally agree, that was the issue I had with M9 RAWs in LR

uhoh07 said:
Ten minutes on an image...yikes! For me that's agony. My favorite is the image which comes out just the way I like it...untouched.

I think I did spend 20 seconds on this one:

And yes, dedicated 240 shooters report increased flare compared to M9, with various lenses, including APO 50.

ok, have never seen this in over a year of use. Don't forget the APO cron was defective as to flare at launch. Would still like to know which lenses you believe are affected by this.

uhoh07 said:
If that's not an issue for you, and I think many are fine with it--or oblivious, great, but it's something shooters should know before leaping.

Godfrey, post: 55298801, member: 805691"]
I have a Sony A7 body that I use mostly with Leica R lenses. Yes, it's color fidelity is much much better than the M9. TG

Click to expand...

Sorry could not disagree more. I have many thousands of frames with both A7 and A7r and many lenses. Now I have a A7.mod.

Sony color is not close to M9 with modern Leica or Zeiss glass. Quite muddy in comparison, and RAW files are atrocious, lossy and a night mare in comparison to M9 RAWs which are very friendly for me in Lightroom.

totally agree that the RAWs are lossy and I have issues with processing A7 RAWs that have been underexposed vs the output from a D600 or D750: noise develops far too quickly. But in terms of Color fidelity, which I'm understanding to mean accuracy, neither the M9 nor M240 are great for that. Sony cameras seem to require extra contrast, but their results are attractive and more accurate than either Leica. Nikon cameras used to be biased toward greens and blues, but there's definitely a more neutral rendering in the D810 whereas the D750 renders like a Canon, with a slight bias towards magenta. I'm with Jono Slack in that the most accurate colour I've seen was from my old A900. If you want to debate the ability to capture colour detail though, the only thing that comes close to the Leicas is the D810 - no idea why theA7R wasn't in the same bracket for colour detail in my use of it, but certainly one thought might be its compression algorithms. That said, the D800E fell behind the d810 in this too IMHO.

uhoh07 said:
Of course M9 is very sensitive to light source and color and WB will vary, but so is the A7, perhaps more so. For daylight work I have never seen a digital camera with better color fidelity than the M9 and many others feel the same way.

[/QUOTE]

RodluvanII · Feb 15, 2015

do you use ISO800 at a shutterspeed of 1/4000 for a static object?

sgoldswo · Feb 15, 2015

RodluvanII said:
do you use ISO800 at a shutterspeed of 1/4000 for a static object?

paratom · Feb 21, 2015

I shot both the M9 and M side by side for months, sold M9, missed it, bought another M9 just to find out overall the M type240 works better for me. M type 240 has some advantages in regards to high ISO, responsivness/shooting speed, shuttter sound, display, weatherprotection.

In regards of color sometimes I prefered the M9 for other light situations I prefered the M type 240.

DR of the M type 240 is an advantage as well.

i like both these cams but in the end I have made the decision for the "new" M and I am confident its the (slightly) better camera for my purpose.

uhoh07 · Feb 22, 2015

sgoldswo said:
sgoldswo said:

you can debate results between you until the cows come home, but these are two of my favourite lenses on the M240. If the Lux doesn't perform its down to my failing eyesight :-(

Click to expand...

Some of my favorite shooters use the 240, and if you like the 50 and 28 cron on the 240, that's the only thing that matters.

@godfey: I did not buy a M9 to shoot jpegs. Enjoy your editing.

My main business is computer consulting, and I hate any un-needed use period. Your distaste for M9 color is reason enough for you to shoot CMOS. But of course many of us don't share your view. Next time I'm in the mountains on a day like that I will tell them: hey your colors are overstated. LOL

Anyway my main point stands: it's about the CCD or CMOs if you care how they effect your images. Anyone who denies they do is just not paying attention, and for them maybe it does not matter.

For me, the M9 is the best camera yet made for digital, though it has faults, too big, needs CG which won't corrode, etc. I don't care about the ISO. The M9 can shoot in any light if you have the glass.

75Lux:

Godfrey · Feb 22, 2015

uhoh07 said:
@godfey: I did not buy a M9 to shoot jpegs. Enjoy your editing. My main business is computer consulting, and I hate any un-needed use period. ...

If you hate using computers other than for work, you're in the wrong business.

I also work in the computer industry. I obtain great satisfaction from using the products that I help bring to market, particularly when they advance my and other folks' photography.

uhoh07 said:
.. Anyway my main point stands: it's about the CCD or CMOs if you care how they effect your images. Anyone who denies they do is just not paying attention, and for them maybe it does not matter.

Thank you for insulting me and everyone else who doesn't agree with you. Now I know what to expect from trying to have a discussion with you.

G

uhoh07 · Feb 22, 2015

Godfrey said:
If you hate using computers other than for work, you're in the wrong business.

Thank you for insulting me and everyone else who doesn't agree with you.

Right, you are a paragon of logic and grace.

Thin-skinned and opinionated, wonderful combo!

First you tell me which camera to like and now, which job to have

50 cron on CMOS, especially for you:

bartolyni · Feb 22, 2015

CMOS doesn't seem to do justice to 50 Cron here...or is it my eyes?

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It's not about CCD or CMOS

Rodrigue Zahr

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