Should I go back to all crop?

Lee Jay · Feb 18, 2015

diness said:
Lee Jay said:

diness said:

I would keep the 5D. You cannot sell it for a price that would compensate you for the benefit it brings.

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I'm not planning to sell either of my current cameras.

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So... are you planning on having four camera bodies? 2x7dii, 20d and 5d? Then you wouldn't really be going back to all crop would you?

I'll be keeping the old cameras primarily so my kids can learn to use them.

diness said:
For me personally, if I had two cameras and was using them side by side (not one as a backup), which I don't have by the way, I would want the two cams to do complementary things. So, I would probably go with a 70d or 7dii and a 6d or 5diii. If you want pretty much the same setup on each, you could do either 70d and 6d or go with 7dii and 5diii (although that comes at a huge price jump). Anyway, that's my 2cents

Yes, that's the plan. But even with crop-only, I could do that just by having different lenses on the two cameras (i.e. 18-35/1.8 on one, 70-200/2.8 on the other).

--
Lee Jay

Howard S · Feb 18, 2015

I have a 5D2 and 7D and often use them with 24-105 and 70-200/2.8 them make a great combo when there's enough light. Also I like that they both have the 2 wheels and joystick so making quick adjustments is the same on both, so I get your preference for 2 identical or similar bodies especially in situations where you may use AV and compensation. I don't like to go higher than ISO1600 with the 7D but if the final output isn't large then I will if I have to.

I keep casting my eye at the 6D because of the high ISO performance and because if shooting in manual I tend to set aperture and work by changing SS so they would be fine. Centre point and back button focus would get me past the joystick I think. A 1.4x on the 70-200/2.8 would be OK when I needed the extra reach.

For events I don't like to go wider than 24mm on the 5D2 and have recently got the 24/2.8 IS and 35/2 IS for indoor/low light use instead of the 17-40 or 24-105.

If you are unsure I'd get a single 7D2 and see how the high ISO works for you, I think the ability to use manual with AUTO ISO and compensation could be very useful at times and the focus Ideal for you needs for action. Plus it keeps main controls you are used to and so pairs well with your 5D

Lee Jay said:
I'm really struggling to decide my upgrade path. I've had more-or-less the same system for almost a decade:

20D

5D

Sigma 15mm fisheye

17-40L

24-105L

35/1.4L

85/1.8

70-200/2.8L IS II

I love having both formats - 20D for speed and reach, 5D for low light. I regularly shoot them together and love that they both have about the same user interface.

The lenses I use the least are the 17-40L and 85/1.8. I like the 15mm fisheye on the 5D over the 17-40L and the 70-200/2.8L IS II over the 85/1.8, and I'm thinking with higher performing (in terms of high ISO/low light) cameras, that I won't need the 85/1.8 on full-frame.

However, I'm now considering an all-crop option for replacements.

7D Mark II x 2

Sigma 10mm fisheye

18-135STM

Sigma 18-35/1.8

70-200/2.8L IS II

So, the 18-135 would give me reach and flexibility over the 24-105L, but at the cost of the 24mm end and low-light performance. The 18-35/1.8 would give me zoom flexibility at the cost of a much larger size and effectively slower apertures than the 35/1.4L. The 10mm fisheye would be not quite as wide and effectively a little slower. But the 7DII's should be better at high ISO, even than my current full-frame 5D. I've looked at many samples, but it's not clear to me by how much.

If I really end up missing an ultrawide rectilinear, the 10-18IS STM looks nice, and it's certainly cheap. The Two 7DII's would have that feature I like - identical user interfaces. But so would a 7DII and a 5DIII or 5DIV most likely, unlike a 6D which was my original plan. One thing I don't like about my 5D is the lack of a popup flash. I bought a little Sunpac just for that reason. The 7DII's would solve that problem.

Or I could just wait and see what the 5DIV brings. But I've waited a long time already and it would certainly be more expensive.

--
Lee Jay

1Balance · Feb 18, 2015

Lee Jay said:
lastcoyote said:

In your situation I'd get one 7DII for now and wait to add a 5DIV when announced/released.

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That's just about word-for-word what my wife said!

ed rader · Feb 19, 2015

1.6 crop. I have a cropper as a back up and if I never have to use it i'd say it did its job perfectly.

Lee Jay · Feb 19, 2015

ed rader said:
1.6 crop. I have a cropper as a back up and if I never have to use it i'd say it did its job perfectly.

Crop is a superior solution when you are focal length or magnification limited and when you want fast frame rates and don't want to own a 1D series camera.

Lee Jay · Feb 19, 2015

1Balance said:
Lee Jay said:

lastcoyote said:

In your situation I'd get one 7DII for now and wait to add a 5DIV when announced/released.

Click to expand...

That's just about word-for-word what my wife said!

Click to expand...

Your wife is very wise and I give another vote for this. Get the 7DII with the kit lens and see what the 5DIV brings. You like the 20D for speed and reach? Whoa, wait'll try 10 FPS on the 7DII!!! and, as for reach, the 100-400II w/ TCs III is amazing.

I'll be getting the 7DII with the 18-135STM. I'll be trying it on my 70-200/2.8L IS II with 2x TC III before I decide on the 100-400II. I've found the 70-200+2x to be surprisingly excellent.

1Balance said:
Also, you gotta keep FF; the new 16-35 f4 is so very nice.

I hear that about the 16-35, but I use my ultrawide rectilinear so rarely now (22 shots in the last 18 months) that I don't think it's worth it. I use the fisheye over 100 times more.

--
Lee Jay

Rick Knepper · Feb 19, 2015

Lee Jay said:
ed rader said:

1.6 crop. I have a cropper as a back up and if I never have to use it i'd say it did its job perfectly.

Click to expand...

Crop is a superior solution when you are focal length or magnification limited and when you want fast frame rates and don't want to own a 1D series camera.

--
Lee Jay

Agree with both of you.

Ed, I said the same thing about crop (in your subject line) for the longest time, but in the past two years, I have seriously entertained the idea as a way to get cheap reach as Lee Jay suggests (well, not the cheap part). Canon wasn't releasing its 100-400 and who knew when that would happen. With a TC I already had and an EOS-M and adapter, I could get the reach I wanted. But, two events deterred this course of action. Canon USA cr@pped on my attempt to buy an M and Tamron released its 150-600. Now, I don't feel reach-challenged any longer.

But then, this thread happened.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55117218

From what I could tell, the 11-22 on an EOS M was beating up on the 16-35/4 IS in edge/corner performance. So, I bought the M3 and the 11-22 from Amazon JP last week. First crop since buying the DigiReb. My expectations are not high about the camera but if this 11-22 is as sharp as I observed from this thread, then, assuming the M3/11-22 is light and small enough, it could enable me to carry 3 cameras on hikes allowing me to cover 16mm (equivalent) to 200mm. If it doesn't work out, I think I can sell the combo pretty quick.

--
Rick Knepper, photographer, shooting for pleasure. It is better to have It and not need It than need It and not have It. Mystery Gardner: "Rick, you have a passion for photography but not a position. That's a good thing." Based on 2014 keepers, I shot the following percentages: 5D3=42%, D800=31%, 6D=25% & D3x=2%. Various RAW comparisons at Link below. Includes 5D3 vs D800E (new uploads), 5D3 vs. 6D, Zeiss lenses etc. https://app.box.com/s/71w40ita6hrcfghojaie

AndyC400D · Feb 19, 2015

I've just upgraded from the 650D to to 7Dii. I'm keeping the 650 for when I want a lighter body, and as a backup, or when I need the articulated screen.

As I've said in other threads, the 650d + Sigma 18-200 is for when weight is more important than IQ. The 7Dii and the 24-105 f/4 L is when it balances the other way. Or other heavy glass......

I've deliberately kept it all crop.... L series glass on the 7Dii is going to be more IQ for the expense than a FF body.

Andy

pidera · Feb 20, 2015

I see the choice for 7dii + 70-200 is already made. So the question is what to do with the rest (second body, lenses for the second body). Tough question indeed

Spad16 · Feb 20, 2015

If you draw all the arguments for crop to their conclusion, you will find that the same arguments can be made for Micro Four Thirds systems, and in spades. So why don’t we all leave the 1.6 crop format and go to Micro Four Thirds? For the same reason full-framers don’t want to go to crop, things like dynamic range, separating the subject from background, better bokeh, ISO performance etc. etc. The popularity of the 6D and Nikon D600 are a sign of the times, as is the decline of Olympus. “Crop factor 1.6” might be a good balance between Micro Four Thirds and Full-frame, but it could also be a dead end in the long run. The question you should ask is, if you’re not prepared to switch to Micro Four Thirds, then why bother with the “Crop factor 1.6” halfway step?

Me, I’ll stick with full-frame as long as I’m strong enough to carry one!

/Neil

ASR45 · Feb 20, 2015

Spad16 said:
If you draw all the arguments for crop to their conclusion, you will find that the same arguments can be made for Micro Four Thirds systems, and in spades. So why don’t we all leave the 1.6 crop format and go to Micro Four Thirds? For the same reason full-framers don’t want to go to crop, things like dynamic range, separating the subject from background, better bokeh, ISO performance etc. etc. The popularity of the 6D and Nikon D600 are a sign of the times, as is the decline of Olympus. “Crop factor 1.6” might be a good balance between Micro Four Thirds and Full-frame, but it could also be a dead end in the long run. The question you should ask is, if you’re not prepared to switch to Micro Four Thirds, then why bother with the “Crop factor 1.6” halfway step?

Me, I’ll stick with full-frame as long as I’m strong enough to carry one!

/Neil

Me to have done that read the T shirt ect, im sticking with FF, will keep my 5DMK3 & 6D for some time and add a 100-400MK2 when the wife gets her pension pay out, blast hope she dont read this Lol.

Lee Jay · Feb 20, 2015

Spad16 said:
If you draw all the arguments for crop to their conclusion, you will find that the same arguments can be made for Micro Four Thirds systems, and in spades.

Hardly.

Spad16 said:
So why don’t we all leave the 1.6 crop format and go to Micro Four Thirds? For the same reason full-framers don’t want to go to crop, things like dynamic range, separating the subject from background, better bokeh, ISO performance etc. etc.

Those aren't the reasons.

Spad16 said:
The popularity of the 6D and Nikon D600 are a sign of the times, as is the decline of Olympus. “Crop factor 1.6” might be a good balance between Micro Four Thirds and Full-frame, but it could also be a dead end in the long run. The question you should ask is, if you’re not prepared to switch to Micro Four Thirds, then why bother with the “Crop factor 1.6” halfway step?

Because a 7D Mark II can out-focus, out-viewfinder, and out-glass anything in mirrorless land.

AndyC400D · Feb 20, 2015

Lee Jay said:
Spad16 said:

The question you should ask is, if you’re not prepared to switch to Micro Four Thirds, then why bother with the “Crop factor 1.6” halfway step?

Click to expand...

Because a 7D Mark II can out-focus, out-viewfinder, and out-glass anything in mirrorless land.

And because it feels like a pro standard FF body in your hands.

Every point on that scale is a trade off. Weight and cost for Full Frame at one end, glass, AF systems, and ergonomics in the Mirrorless world.

For me, crop bodies are the sweet point. IQ that only pixel peepers can tell from full frame (and then only on a bad day). Superb lenses. Pro standard build and ergonomics. I could easily have got a good FF body for what I paid for the 7Dii - or not much more. Actually a 6D would have been a lot cheaper!

Andy

diness · Feb 20, 2015

AndyC400D said:
I've deliberately kept it all crop.... L series glass on the 7Dii is going to be more IQ for the expense than a FF body.

Andy

How so? A 24-105L on a 6d is going to have better IQ and be cheaper than a 24-105L on a 7dii. There are certainly other things that would make the 7dii more attractive to some, but I don't agree that L glass on a 7dii is going to be more IQ for the expense.

diness · Feb 20, 2015

It's become obvious from your posts that you really want to buy the 7dii's and won't be persuaded otherwise. That being the case, just go for it! I'm sure you will love them!

Lee Jay · Feb 20, 2015

diness said:
It's become obvious from your posts that you really want to buy the 7dii's and won't be persuaded otherwise. That being the case, just go for it! I'm sure you will love them!

No, I'm going to buy one 7DII. The other body is up in the air - another 7DII, or a 6D or 5DIII replacement.

diness · Feb 20, 2015

Lee Jay said:
diness said:

It's become obvious from your posts that you really want to buy the 7dii's and won't be persuaded otherwise. That being the case, just go for it! I'm sure you will love them!

Click to expand...

No, I'm going to buy one 7DII. The other body is up in the air - another 7DII, or a 6D or 5DIII replacement.

Lee Jay · Feb 20, 2015

diness said:
Lee Jay said:

diness said:

It's become obvious from your posts that you really want to buy the 7dii's and won't be persuaded otherwise. That being the case, just go for it! I'm sure you will love them!

Click to expand...

No, I'm going to buy one 7DII. The other body is up in the air - another 7DII, or a 6D or 5DIII replacement.

Click to expand...

That's probably a good choice. It sounds like having the same controls is important to you. If that's the case, I would probably be most interested in waiting for a 5div if you are able to. I would imagine that should be one sweet camera if it's really an upgrade of the 5diii.

At this point, the most likely outcome is that one - buy the 5DIV in the fall or winter. However, I'll wait and see what it brings and at what cost. I'll probably purchase a 7DII before the end of April. If I like it, and don't like what the 5DIV brings, maybe I'll buy another 7DII later this year.

Spad16 · Feb 20, 2015

Seems like I'm living in the past, when I mentioned Olympus I was thinking of a proper DSLR with a shutter, which they certainly used to have. Have Olympus gone completely mirrorless?

In any case, I didn't mean mirrorless, I meant a proper DSLR, just with a smaller sensor.

And the point of my mail was that the same reasons apply why people don't want to go down to micro four thirds from a crop sensor, as why FF users don't want to go down to crop.

1.6 crop does seem to be a sort of sweet spot, as has been said, so probably it will survive. I'm sure Micro four thirds will survive too, the Panasonic GH2/3/4 is very popular amongst videographers. There does seem to be room for all formats, except sadly 1.3 crop.

/Neil

1Balance · Feb 20, 2015

Lee Jay said:
diness said:

Lee Jay said:

diness said:

It's become obvious from your posts that you really want to buy the 7dii's and won't be persuaded otherwise. That being the case, just go for it! I'm sure you will love them!

Click to expand...

No, I'm going to buy one 7DII. The other body is up in the air - another 7DII, or a 6D or 5DIII replacement.

Click to expand...

That's probably a good choice. It sounds like having the same controls is important to you. If that's the case, I would probably be most interested in waiting for a 5div if you are able to. I would imagine that should be one sweet camera if it's really an upgrade of the 5diii.

Click to expand...

At this point, the most likely outcome is that one - buy the 5DIV in the fall or winter. However, I'll wait and see what it brings and at what cost. I'll probably purchase a 7DII before the end of April. If I like it, and don't like what the 5DIV brings, maybe I'll buy another 7DII later this year.

Should I go back to all crop?

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