1Ds focus issues -- truth, or lies?

Pekka Saarinen wrote:
[snip]

Pekka Saarinen said:

I don't think David has been offering any flawed tests. My summary
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=10948
contains pretty much the same info and FYI that page is referred by
Canon Tech boss in

http://www.robgalbraith.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB8&Number=139199&Forum=All_Forums&Words=photography-on-the.net&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=3months&Main=139009&Search=true#Post139199 so it can't be flawed info.

Click to expand...

I had a bit of a run-in with you, Pekka, about this issue shortly after receiving my 10D. It turned out that I was wrong and you were right (except I do think that my point about having good enough lighting for the tests was a valid addition).

It's been a few months, but I hope this isn't too late for a retraction and apology for any hurt feelings. My 10D had a (fairly minor) focus miscalibration too, and I've seen way too many examples of competent people finding them on their cameras to think any more that it's a one-in-a-million situation.

Petteri
--
Portfolio: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/ ]
Pontification: [ http://www.seittipaja.fi/ ]

All AF cameras, dslr, point and shoot and yes even film have AF problems. Given the right light and contrast they will all fail. Some have the problem to a lesser or greater degree than others. My 10D focuses just fine. It evens focuses better than my D60 or Nikon 990. When I look at my AE1 manual focus photos I must say even with all of the short comings of todays AF my 10D photos blow away my old manual focus shots. What people have to decide is does the tool accomplish what I need/want it to do. If not return it, repair, whatever. Please just don't go on and on about it here. Most of us know a certain percentage of cameras, Canon, Nikon whatever will be too far out of whack to work properly. We cannot do anything about it here

ONTOH we can try to help you determine if it is user error or the camera/lens. I for one understand that some people assume user error 99.9% of the time when that is not the case. But I also have to wonder how any of us can possibly get a nice photo with all of these AF problems (sarcasm). I have to agree the reason you hear about 10D problems so much is because 30,000 a month are being sold and yes many of those are going to newbies.

DavidP said:

In another thread, Mind'sEye asked:

Mind'sEye wrote:

"So far, I have only read about focus issues with the 10D, but have
not seen, or perhaps missed seing, complaints about the 1Ds. I
would love to see comments by 1Ds owners."

I responded with:

"I've seen at least one complaint on RobG's forum about
front-focusing on a 1Ds. Bear in mind, there aren't many 1Ds
owners relative to 10D owners, so you wouldn't expect to see nearly
as many complaints. I don't think anybody knows how the relative
percentage of complaints compares, though."

Others have insinuated that my reply was somehow untrue or
misleading, and didn't display "critical thinking skills" on my
part.

I ask you all:

1) What part is untrue?

2) What part is misleading?

3) What part illustrates poor "critical thinking skills"?

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Click to expand...

--
Mike Morbach
I'm still learning
http://www.pbase.com/spike777

I can tell you their s900 and s9000 printers are far, very far from perfect. The photo cyan clogs like you would not believe.

Joe Wilson said:

DavidP said:

In another thread, Mind'sEye asked:

Mind'sEye wrote:

"So far, I have only read about focus issues with the 10D, but have
not seen, or perhaps missed seing, complaints about the 1Ds. I
would love to see comments by 1Ds owners."

I responded with:

"I've seen at least one complaint on RobG's forum about
front-focusing on a 1Ds. Bear in mind, there aren't many 1Ds
owners relative to 10D owners, so you wouldn't expect to see nearly
as many complaints. I don't think anybody knows how the relative
percentage of complaints compares, though."

Others have insinuated that my reply was somehow untrue or
misleading, and didn't display "critical thinking skills" on my
part.

I ask you all:

1) What part is untrue?

2) What part is misleading?

3) What part illustrates poor "critical thinking skills"?

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Click to expand...

--
http://www.joesimages.com

Click to expand...

--
Mike Morbach
I'm still learning
http://www.pbase.com/spike777

Mike Morbach said:

DavidP said:

In another thread, Mind'sEye asked:

Mind'sEye wrote:

"So far, I have only read about focus issues with the 10D, but have
not seen, or perhaps missed seing, complaints about the 1Ds. I
would love to see comments by 1Ds owners."

I responded with:

"I've seen at least one complaint on RobG's forum about
front-focusing on a 1Ds. Bear in mind, there aren't many 1Ds
owners relative to 10D owners, so you wouldn't expect to see nearly
as many complaints. I don't think anybody knows how the relative
percentage of complaints compares, though."

Others have insinuated that my reply was somehow untrue or
misleading, and didn't display "critical thinking skills" on my
part.

I ask you all:

1) What part is untrue?

2) What part is misleading?

3) What part illustrates poor "critical thinking skills"?

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Click to expand...

--
Mike Morbach
I'm still learning
http://www.pbase.com/spike777

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

... its funny some people seem to spend their time with taking pictures of rulers and mm scales. They seem to love this type of stuff and can spend hours after hours doing only that.

I feel sorry for these people as this obsession does not seem to have a cure.

DavidP, we regret your disease and hope you get over it soon.

Best wishes and hopefully happy times in the future for you.

It could read a bit as though you're trying to slant things toward there being focus problems on the 1Ds. I don't imagine you intended it that way, but I can see how it could give that impression.

You could read it as "I've only heard one complaint, but there are probably plenty of problems. You just don't hear as many complaints because there aren't as many 1Ds owners"

I think people are overreacting if you're getting flamed for it, though.

DavidP #28649 said:

I responded with:

"I've seen at least one complaint on RobG's forum about
front-focusing on a 1Ds. Bear in mind, there aren't many 1Ds
owners relative to 10D owners, so you wouldn't expect to see nearly
as many complaints. I don't think anybody knows how the relative
percentage of complaints compares, though."

Click to expand...

Don't you listen to George Carlin?

You NEVER throw away stuff! You move into a bigger place so you can get MORE stuff!

Frank

DavidP said:

My biggest problem is that my wife won't let me throw out a bunch
of her, uh, stuff.

To preserve peace, maybe I should find the cheapest
climate-controlled storage place around.

This stuff really needs to go, though.

Nill Toulme said:

Excavating my home office to make room for more work surface, for
scanner, cutter, prints, etc. etc. etc.

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Click to expand...

--
I plan on living forever - so far so good!

DavidP said:

In another thread, Mind'sEye asked:

Mind'sEye wrote:

"So far, I have only read about focus issues with the 10D, but have
not seen, or perhaps missed seing, complaints about the 1Ds. I
would love to see comments by 1Ds owners."

I responded with:

"I've seen at least one complaint on RobG's forum about
front-focusing on a 1Ds. Bear in mind, there aren't many 1Ds
owners relative to 10D owners, so you wouldn't expect to see nearly
as many complaints. I don't think anybody knows how the relative
percentage of complaints compares, though."

Others have insinuated that my reply was somehow untrue or
misleading, and didn't display "critical thinking skills" on my
part.

I ask you all:

1) What part is untrue?

2) What part is misleading?

3) What part illustrates poor "critical thinking skills"?

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Click to expand...

David you carry right on discussing issues as you see them.

Maybe we're all fantasising, but all your fantasies seem to lead to me learning to work with my equipment to get better pictures!

You and Adam-T are two of the most knowledgeable and helpful people on this forum.

Call it the wayyou see it, David, and many thanks for being a truly great forum member!
--
Regards,
DaveMart

Please see profile for equipment

but I doubt I would...

I don't look look for it...

I am careful about the focusing

it seems to work..

or in the words of someones signature:-

If you are a cr@p camera, do you need a better photographer, if you are an excellent camera do you need a cr@p photographer.....

it's all about perspective...

See: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/canon-controversies.shtml

Quote:

"UPDATE:

In the few days since the above was first published I have received a huge amount of mail from readers who claim that the 10D focus issue is much worse than what I have written would lead one to believe. Many of these e-mails are from people who claim to be professional photographers with extensive experience, rather than the newbies who fret unnecessarily over what they read on web forums.

Given the shear number of such e-mails I have no reason to doubt them, or their concerns. This of course raises the specter of a cover up by Canon. Given that Canon in the U.S. has not made any official statement on this issue, and that there are now a large number of apparently knowledgeable and honest photographers who are seeing this problem, one can only conclude that there is more here than meets the eye.

An open request to Canon — tell us what's going on! If there is a problem, let us know what it is and what steps are being taken to remedy it. If there isn't a problem, or if it's as minor as some Canon representatives are telling us it is, then provide us with the reassurances needed to rebuild confidence in this product and your company. At the moment, and until something is said publically on this matter, both remain in doubt.

"

Geir Ove

DavidP said:

I responded with:

"I've seen at least one complaint on RobG's forum about
front-focusing on a 1Ds. Bear in mind, there aren't many 1Ds
owners relative to 10D owners, so you wouldn't expect to see nearly
as many complaints. I don't think anybody knows how the relative
percentage of complaints compares, though."

Others have insinuated that my reply was somehow untrue or
misleading, and didn't display "critical thinking skills" on my
part.

Click to expand...

People get such attitudes that regardless of the truth of your statements there are accusations that question your loyalty to Canon, Photography, Real Pictures, etc. There is a very strong antiscientific, anti-intellectual element out there.

Well, all folks need to do is check out your pix, which demonstrate that you have the ability and desire to make pictures that talk.

The interesting thing is that people who say"I don't have time to shoot rulers, I take REAL pictures" somehow have plenty of time to insert their sneering and criticizing views here.

I have learned a lot from your posts as well as your pix.

--
Walter K

DavidP said:

There's also some evidence (which I think makes sense) recently
posted to suggest that color-temperature has an effecton front-back
focus issues. I say it makes sense because it's a well-known
phenomenon in IR photography. Extrapolating that to issues across
the visible spectrum is hardly a big leap. The only real question
is how large should the effect be, theoretically.

I have never claimed that the 10D (or any other Canon DSLR or SLR)
has a "systematic problem" with AF (other than the caveat
immediately above).

The 10D has had a much larger number of people complaining about
mis-focus issues. I, however, think there are other reasons for
this. It's not about a systematic problem. I suppose it's
possible that it's a design (systematic) problem, but I really
think that other issues are behind this.

Louis44 said:

....you don't feel anything anymore, don't you? You are
systematically trying to mix up individual problems and systematic
problems. How dumb do you think people are?

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Click to expand...

--
Dave,

Just my .02.I got my 10D 3 days ago.I was very disappointed in the focusing as I had had the D60 and was very disappointed and read that the 10D was greatly improved.I spent sometime on the board and was encouraged to select a central focusing point instead of the factory default of having the camera select the focus point.When I did this my focus problems instantly improved....I blame Canon for alot of this autofocus controversy...I think the the default should be the central point and users can change to suit there needs...clearly,having 7 focus points and having the camera select as opposed to just 3 on the D60 was a major selling point and they established the 7 as a default not out of efficacy but to support there marketing.However,in doing so,thet created alot of havoc about poor focusing especially for non-pro shooters like myself.Anyway,I'm fairly satisfied with the focusing now that I made the adjustment and now I'm learning about the very few times I will change and let the camera select...very few in my case..I'd simply rather focus and recompose.

http://www.pbase.com/dsg2/daves_pictures

couldn't agree more...............

Rune Moberg said:

Louis44 said:

So many people have tried to tell you so many time in so many
different ways (for example, http://forums.dpreview.com/ ...
... read.asp?forum=1019&message=5454543).

Click to expand...

"So many people"?

Did you attempt to tell DavidP too? Is that why you got banned and
had to aquire a new nick? (I'm assuming you're not a n00b, but an
experienced troll)

Call the forum police!

FORUM POLICE!
FORUM POLICE!

(slightly modified Monty Python for you there, enjoy)

--
Rune

Click to expand...

Geir Ove said:

Quote:

"UPDATE:

Click to expand...

[snip]

Geir Ove said:

An open request to Canon — tell us what's going on! If there is a
problem, let us know what it is and what steps are being taken to
remedy it. If there isn't a problem, or if it's as minor as some
Canon representatives are telling us it is, then provide us with
the reassurances needed to rebuild confidence in this product and
your company. At the moment, and until something is said publically
on this matter, both remain in doubt.

Click to expand...

I too have echoed that request, but I fear it's an hopeless endeavour. If the percentage of focus related RMAs is truly low (I wouldn't say 0.6% is low btw), then continue saying so doesn't help much. OTOH admitting that there is a "problem" might make Canon open for reliability lawsuits?

Personally I believe you'll find similar issues regardless of brand and models (be it cameras or something else). When buying a (D)SLR the customer simply have to be prepared to do some testing before using the new camera on location (or just use it as a backup camera at first). Canon users are simply expecting more from their equipment, hence we take notice of these things.

BTW: I noticed your recent post in the News forum, and frankly, well... If you expect any of the other companies to be as open and friendly as Canon, then you're in for a big surprise. Just buy a 10D already and stop fretting!

Canon here in Norway are doing a fine job, and you'll be in good hands should you choose to take your business to them. That's all that matters, 0.6% RMAs or not.

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/

laupi said:

... its funny some people seem to spend their time with taking
pictures of rulers and mm scales. They seem to love this type of
stuff and can spend hours after hours doing only that.

I feel sorry for these people as this obsession does not seem to
have a cure.

DavidP, we regret your disease and hope you get over it soon.

Click to expand...

WE? I really dislike it when people write
a) under alias
and
b) on behalf of the whole world.

We really don't like that.

--
Pekka
http://photography-on-the.net

"If you expect any of the other companies to be as open and friendly as Canon, "

I don't have a clue what you mean by that.

When it comes to the percentage of Canon 10Ds with AF problem, I personally believe that the percentage is much higher** than reported in this forum. Why? Simple answer:

a) Most pictures are taken at a fairly small aperture and the motive is at a distance: The DOF is then large enough to cover up the AF front / back focusing offset error.

b) Very few** people got the the lenght of doing a somewhat scientific test of the problem

c) Many users want to live under the assumption that they have bought the best. Anything else makes them feel uncomfortable: Thus, they don't want to investigate the problem to find that it is really there: Better then to be in denial and live happily forever after...

I for one, are not prepared to lay this kind of money down to find that may camera has to stay at Canon Service for weeks to "maybe" be fixed.

My 2 cents.

Geir Ove

Rune Moberg said:

Geir Ove said:

Quote:

"UPDATE:

Click to expand...

[snip]

Rune Moberg said:

An open request to Canon — tell us what's going on! If there is a
problem, let us know what it is and what steps are being taken to
remedy it. If there isn't a problem, or if it's as minor as some
Canon representatives are telling us it is, then provide us with
the reassurances needed to rebuild confidence in this product and
your company. At the moment, and until something is said publically
on this matter, both remain in doubt.

Click to expand...

I too have echoed that request, but I fear it's an hopeless
endeavour. If the percentage of focus related RMAs is truly low (I
wouldn't say 0.6% is low btw), then continue saying so doesn't help
much. OTOH admitting that there is a "problem" might make Canon
open for reliability lawsuits?

Personally I believe you'll find similar issues regardless of brand
and models (be it cameras or something else). When buying a (D)SLR
the customer simply have to be prepared to do some testing before
using the new camera on location (or just use it as a backup camera
at first). Canon users are simply expecting more from their
equipment, hence we take notice of these things.

BTW: I noticed your recent post in the News forum, and frankly,
well... If you expect any of the other companies to be as open and
friendly as Canon, then you're in for a big surprise. Just buy a
10D already and stop fretting!

Canon here in Norway are doing a fine job, and you'll be in good
hands should you choose to take your business to them. That's all
that matters, 0.6% RMAs or not.

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/

Click to expand...

Geir Ove said:

"If you expect any of the other companies to be as open and
friendly as Canon, "

I don't have a clue what you mean by that.

Click to expand...

Do you think Olympus, Nikon, et al would've treated a situation like this any differently?

Geir Ove said:

When it comes to the percentage of Canon 10Ds with AF problem, I
personally believe that the percentage is much higher** than
reported in this forum. Why? Simple answer:

Click to expand...

Why speculate on this? There are those that'd say that the real number is much lower because people are now spending time looking for problems that don't exist.

Geir Ove said:

I for one, are not prepared to lay this kind of money down to find
that may camera has to stay at Canon Service for weeks to "maybe"
be fixed.

Click to expand...

1) The 10D is cheap (most bang for the buck compared to the other DSLRs on the market)
2) The likelyhood of buying a dud is infinitely small

3) In Norway you can return purchased goods within 14 days -- no questions asked, all your money back

4) It's better to be without the 10D for two weeks than not to have a 10D at all (but see item 3 -- you don't have to wait at all!)

5) Alternatively you can buy my D60 -- same resolution as the 10D, better battery charger, but less AF points and worse high-ISO performance

6) I sincerely doubt turnaround time for a focus adjustment is two weeks (again I'm talking about Norway) -- specially if you live near Oslo

So for you Geir -- this is a non-issue.

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/

To be sure, there are several things users can do to help the AF out.

I'm pretty sure that if you leave the camera in 7-pt mode (and one-shot) that the selected focus point will light up. Is that correct for the 10D? If so, then the photographer MUST keep track of which AF point is selected, and if it's the wrong one, the change it.

But there's a very good reason to use only the center point when you can and recompose: the center point is sensitive to both horizontal and vertical contrast. This makes it easiesr to lock.

It also sounds like this AI-Focus mode (a combo of one-shot and AI-Servo) has caused many problems. I'm not sure why they came up with it. I guess it can be handy in a few situations, but it sure causes some problems, it seems. When the subject first starts to move, I guess it takes a second or so for the camera to switch from one-shot to AI-Servo, and can cause the photographer to get an OOF image.

This is one of the reasons, though, that a few people have put together websites showing exactly how to test a camera's AF. The tests are designed to eliminate as many "user errors" as possible, and reduce the number of "false positives" when testing for a focus problem.

I agree, many users initially reporting focus problems are experiencing "user error". But I've also seen examples of quite a few here who knew what they were doing, and yet people would reply "user error, user error, the 10D has no problems" apparently without looking at the actual message, and certainly without reading all of the subsequent posts in a thread where it was obvious "user error" wasn't the cause.

David Gore said:

Just my .02.I got my 10D 3 days ago.I was very disappointed in the
focusing as I had had the D60 and was very disappointed and read
that the 10D was greatly improved.I spent sometime on the board and
was encouraged to select a central focusing point instead of the
factory default of having the camera select the focus point.When I
did this my focus problems instantly improved....I blame Canon for
alot of this autofocus controversy...I think the the default should
be the central point and users can change to suit there
needs...clearly,having 7 focus points and having the camera select
as opposed to just 3 on the D60 was a major selling point and they
established the 7 as a default not out of efficacy but to support
there marketing.However,in doing so,thet created alot of havoc
about poor focusing especially for non-pro shooters like
myself.Anyway,I'm fairly satisfied with the focusing now that I
made the adjustment and now I'm learning about the very few times I
will change and let the camera select...very few in my case..I'd
simply rather focus and recompose.

http://www.pbase.com/dsg2/daves_pictures

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Yep, but I don't feel like moving again! Also, I can see the end of my mortange payments coming up, finally.

Free at last!

Much easier to throw away some of the stuff.

And if you saw some of the stuff I'm talking about, you'd agree!

Frank Nichols said:

Don't you listen to George Carlin?

You NEVER throw away stuff! You move into a bigger place so you can
get MORE stuff!

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

My "hours and hours" of testing are over. I don't regret doing them one bit. I learned that one of my bodies needed adjustment this way, and got it fixed. I also learned a lot about how lower contrast can cause front-focusing, and how the AF sensor is larger than what shows up in the viewfinder.

All of this is valuable information, and it helps the photographer become more "in control" of the situation, and hopefully allows him to get more "in focus" shots.

laupi said:

... its funny some people seem to spend their time with taking
pictures of rulers and mm scales. They seem to love this type of
stuff and can spend hours after hours doing only that.

I feel sorry for these people as this obsession does not seem to
have a cure.

DavidP, we regret your disease and hope you get over it soon.

Best wishes and hopefully happy times in the future for you.

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers