Advice on on buying my first DSLR.

Drenny1982 · Jan 19, 2015

Hi all,

I have about a £700-£800 budget and I am looking to purchase my first SLR. I am a total beginner when it comes to photography but I have a desire to explore and grow in this field.

I am looking for a camera that is suitable for beginning enthusiasts but also one that allows me to mature and take greater control down the line. I am interested in experimenting with landscapes, portrait, urban and sport to start with. I am also going to take a couple of short courses to get the technical foundations down but I mainly plan to improve through practical experience.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks ,

Dren

chuxter · Jan 20, 2015

JoePhoto said:
Doss said:

JoePhoto said:

you'll be able to sell the camera with little resale loss

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

You can, (and will), laugh at me, but I predict within 5 to 10 years, mirrorless will dominate the market and dSLR's will have value similar to older film cameras today. (They just have to get a lens-line stabilized w/ more options.)

I fear that Nikon & Canon may have too-far to go to catch-up, (and don't have the inherent "electronics" engineering skills that Sony, Panasonic, Samsung have).

I share that fear. It's like neither wants to be the first to blink. I think they are being stupid!

JoePhoto said:
***************

(And remember many who said "digital" would never dominate the market and "film" cameras would never-ever go away. I even shared that view at one time.)

I also shared the view that "optical" viewfinders were better. In SOME SITUATIONS today they still are better, but overall, EVF offers so many more advantages they can't be ignored.

Joe, you seem to live in a black or white world. All your opinions are strong and either/or. I think it's better to live in a grey world that includes black and white.

Doss · Jan 20, 2015

JoePhoto said:
I dare say I have 100X more experience than you.

sorry Joe, after reading that first line the perineal echo distorted everything else you had to say

Doss · Jan 20, 2015

JoePhoto said:
Doss said:

JoePhoto said:

you'll be able to sell the camera with little resale loss

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

You can, (and will), laugh at me,

Again, you assume to know me so well.

To come on your side for the sake of diplomacy: I'll just let you in on the fact I agree with the following statement...

JoePhoto said:
but I predict within 5 to 10 years, mirrorless will dominate the market and dSLR's will have value similar to older film cameras today. (They just have to get a lens-line stabilized w/ more options.)

...and have EVFs which perform as good as OVFs (not too far off now).

Though that's not to say they will make 'better' learning tools than a dSLR.

Again for the record - I do actually think any type of digital camera makes a good learning tool (I'm not into this petty my-tool-is-better-than-your-tool arbitrary argument). Hence my post was to compensate a misguided statement made by another poster(s) that a dSLR makes an unsuitable learning tool, rather than trigger the unnecessary defense reaction based on the assumption I'm dismissive of using a mirrorless.

Peace

beagle1 · Jan 20, 2015

Doss said:
justgo99 said:

First of all, I would personally ignore the hate-mail of the typical 'get something really simple you dummy' because that is simply nonsense. DSLRs are great for learning because they expose you with all the functions and controls necessary and those only.

Click to expand...

Absolutely agree. One or two regular posters on here habitually misinform people that an SLR is unsuitable for beginners. Despite them being the recommended type of camera by almost all photography courses, be it those within the global education systems or private run.

You wonder where some of these posters keep their heads, or if they really have any photographic experience of their own. Oh hum :|

Doss said:

Drenny1982 said:

Lot of posts here are asking 'why' do I need a DSLR or any camera? Well, the answer is I don't know yet. I don't know what it is I want to do until I have had enough practice, experience and knowledge about photography in general.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Any dSLR ever built will serve you fine as a learning tool. I'm an advocate for buying a cheap old 2nd hand one to learn on, armed with just 1 or 2 good quality primes. Once you've mastered the basics and decided photography is something you wish to pursue then you'll be able to sell the camera with little resale loss and move up to something with quality to match your improving ability (all-the-while taking the primes with you).

sure the DSLR is suitable for beginners

davidedric · Jan 20, 2015

Doss said:
JoePhoto said:

Doss said:

Doss said:

you'll be able to sell the camera with little resale loss

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

You can, (and will), laugh at me,

Click to expand...

Again, you assume to know me so well.

To come on your side for the sake of diplomacy: I'll just let you in on the fact I agree with the following statement...

Doss said:

but I predict within 5 to 10 years, mirrorless will dominate the market and dSLR's will have value similar to older film cameras today. (They just have to get a lens-line stabilized w/ more options.)

Click to expand...

...and have EVFs which perform as good as OVFs (not too far off now).

Though that's not to say they will make 'better' learning tools than a dSLR.

Again for the record - I do actually think any type of digital camera makes a good learning tool (I'm not into this petty my-tool-is-better-than-your-tool arbitrary argument). Hence my post was to compensate a misguided statement made by another poster(s) that a dSLR makes an unsuitable learning tool, rather than trigger the unnecessary defense reaction based on the assumption I'm dismissive of using a mirrorless.

Peace

Reading Joe's post I could only resort to Charlie Brown's "Good Grief". So, thank you for the gentle response. I also took time to view your Facebook images, whose emotions I very much like.

Dave

JoePhoto · Jan 20, 2015

chuxter said:
For a college Professor, you make a lot of errors. If you Google the subject, you will see that there are many dSLRs w/ a Pano Mode; for example the Nikon D3300. There are many others from different manufacturers.

You are correct sir. There are dSLR's that now do Pano, but WITH MIRRORS LOCKED UP.

This means you cannot use the eye-level finder and the rear-LCD is often unusable in sunlight.

On a mirrorless you always have a choice of either eye or rear-LCD for either shooting -- or (instantaneous-retained) review of images to verify pose/smile/eyes.

Few use the Live-View at all on a dSLR because it is so unworkable w/ its long AF-delay.

BTW: I noticed that specific dSLR has even a "manual-focus" shutter-lag of 300ms. That is the LONGEST I HAVE EVER SEEN on a basic dSLR.

So it must have something to do with the kludge'ie way they have to incorporate Live-View on dSLR's.

So the QUESTION is: was I really wrong if it is done w/ so many compromises it is unworkable, (and only done for "marketing" purposes as a desperate attempt to compete w/ mirrorless) ???

All mirrorless do panoramic natively WITH NO COMPROMISES. (And the FZ-1000 with a manual or pre-focus lag of 20ms vs 300ms.)

chuxter said:
BTW, my dad went to Texas A&M; Class of '33. He was never a professor, but didn't make many mistakes.

I make many mistakes.

And I don't mind acknowledging them when pointed out, which you seem not able to do, (and you know the thread I am referring to).

--
Thanks for reading .... JoePhoto
( Do You Ever STOP to THINK --- and FORGET to START Again ??? )

chuxter · Jan 20, 2015

JoePhoto said:
chuxter said:

For a college Professor, you make a lot of errors. If you Google the subject, you will see that there are many dSLRs w/ a Pano Mode; for example the Nikon D3300. There are many others from different manufacturers.

Click to expand...

You are correct sir. There are dSLR's that now do Pano, but WITH MIRRORS LOCKED UP.

This means you cannot use the eye-level finder and the rear-LCD is often unusable in sunlight.

Get a loupe?

JoePhoto said:
On a mirrorless you always have a choice of either eye or rear-LCD for either shooting -- or (instantaneous-retained) review of images to verify pose/smile/eyes.

Few use the Live-View at all on a dSLR because it is so unworkable w/ its long AF-delay.

BTW: I noticed that specific dSLR has even a "manual-focus" shutter-lag of 300ms. That is the LONGEST I HAVE EVER SEEN on a basic dSLR.

Why not tell us which dSLR has that unusual specification?

JoePhoto said:
So it must have something to do with the kludge'ie way they have to incorporate Live-View on dSLR's.

Or a mistake by the reporter?

JoePhoto said:
So the QUESTION is: was I really wrong if it is done w/ so many compromises it is unworkable, (and only done for "marketing" purposes as a desperate attempt to compete w/ mirrorless) ???

That's easy: Yes you are almost always wrong. I think the LV implementation of current Canon and Nikon cameras is much better today. My D300 LV was, as you say, unworkable. The D810 is vastly better. I like it and use it a lot. I never even considered that Nikon was trying to desperately compete w/ ML. I think they were simply improving their camera offerings.

I STILL want a HIGH END mirror-less camera.

JoePhoto said:
All mirrorless do panoramic natively WITH NO COMPROMISES. (And the FZ-1000 with a manual or pre-focus lag of 20ms vs 300ms.)

There you go again. You read 300mS somewhere and you have glombed onto it as if it is a global number that applies to all dSLRs. And you converted it from "manual-focus shutter-lag" to "pre-focus shutter-lag". I do not believe that the FZ1000 has a "pre-focus shutter-lag" of 20 mS. Yes, I looked it up: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/panasonic-fz1000/panasonic-fz1000A6.HTM

The truth, Joe, is that the FZ1000 has a pre-focus shutter-lag between 101 mS and 112 mS, depending on the FL. Even the post-focus shutter lag was much longer than 20 mS...29 mS according to Dave in that Review. In the dSLR world, pre-focus shutter-lag is greater; you are correct. But 300 mS is much too long! The D3 has a lag time of 85-88 mS [same tester]! The old D90 has a lag time of 208 mS. The D750 has a lag of 206 mS. The D810 has a lag of 212 mS.

SO, I think it would be proper to claim that your FZ1000 is twice as fast to capture an image as my D810; ie, 112 mS vs 212 mS. I like 112 better than 212, but not enough to put up w/ a tiny 1" sensor.

JoePhoto said:
JoePhoto said:

BTW, my dad went to Texas A&M; Class of '33. He was never a professor, but didn't make many mistakes.

Click to expand...

I make many mistakes.

Yes, you do.

JoePhoto said:
And I don't mind acknowledging them when pointed out, which you seem not able to do, (and you know the thread I am referring to).

By now, I have pointed out dozens of your mistakes, thus I don't accept your opinion that you "don't mind acknowledging them".

JoePhoto · Jan 20, 2015

Please explain your procedure for doing Panoramic's from D810 ???

cberry · Jan 20, 2015

Drenny1982 said:
Hi all,

I have about a £700-£800 budget and I am looking to purchase my first SLR. I am a total beginner when it comes to photography but I have a desire to explore and grow in this field.

I am looking for a camera that is suitable for beginning enthusiasts but also one that allows me to mature and take greater control down the line. I am interested in experimenting with landscapes, portrait, urban and sport to start with. I am also going to take a couple of short courses to get the technical foundations down but I mainly plan to improve through practical experience.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks ,

Dren

Get a cheap, used Nikon 3200D or Canon 50D. Many have been down the road you're on and fallen by the wayside - not that you necessarily will.

The 50D is a fantastic camera without video ability but gives you pro features not found in anything in that price range.

cb

fedway · Jan 20, 2015

Drenny1982 said:
Thanks for the advice, I've heard from quite a lot of other people and some friends that Canon Rebel T5i is the best model to start out with as a beginner photographer.

Lot of posts here are asking 'why' do I need a DSLR or any camera? Well, the answer is I don't know yet. I don't know what it is I want to do until I have had enough practice, experience and knowledge about photography in general.

You don't know yet and that is exactly why you should minimize any expenses on any camera gear at this point. A couple of years ago I made a thorough research of all beginners photography courses in the city I live in (one of top ten biggest cities in the U.S. ) and the requirements for all courses were any camera with an option for full manual control. You can basically learn photography with literally a $20 used Canon Rebel from 10 years ago. After you've taken a photography class, you'll be more knowledgeable about your preferences, style of photography, favorite subjects, etc., and can make better decisions on what type of camera gear you should spend your money on.

Doss · Jan 21, 2015

davidedric said:
Reading Joe's post I could only resort to Charlie Brown's "Good Grief". So, thank you for the gentle response. I also took time to view your Facebook images, whose emotions I very much like.

Thank you, sir, for your kind words

PinoC · Jan 21, 2015

justgo99 said:
Drenny1982 said:

Thanks for the advice, I've heard from quite a lot of other people and some friends that Canon Rebel T5i is the best model to start out with as a beginner photographer.

Lot of posts here are asking 'why' do I need a DSLR or any camera? Well, the answer is I don't know yet. I don't know what it is I want to do until I have had enough practice, experience and knowledge about photography in general.

Click to expand...

Maybe it's best if you rent a DSLR like a T5i for a month or so, get to grips with manual exposure and find what sort of photography interests you most before deciding whether a DSLR or a mirrorless camera is better for you.

Get yourself a DSLR if you see yourself expanding your lens and accessory collection greatly over time. They offer the widest range for pros and amateurs alike along with top class support and customisation. However they are big, dull grey boxes and doesn't offer any 'niche' or 'hip' appeal if that's what you're after.

Mirrorless is great if you plan to stick to one or two lenses and not really think about upgrading in the future; keeping your kit small. With the exception of a few cameras, they aren't really tailored to serious or professional work but more the casual user who will most likely leave it on an automatic-exposure mode and appreciate features such as wifi, sweep panorama and is keen on video. They are of course much smaller and lighter but performance and battery life still trail DSLRs.

Not true. There are entry and enthusiast models in mirrorless systems that offer everything their counterpart DSLRs offer from Sony, Panasonic, Olympus and Samsung. Olympus and Panasonic offer a wide range of lenses from zooms to fast primes. To say "they aren't really tailored to serious or professional work but more the casual user who will most likely leave it on an automatic-exposure mode" is a bit silly to say the least.

justgo99 said:
So try them out at the shop or even take them home, grasp manual exposure and the come to a conclusion

chuxter · Jan 21, 2015

JoePhoto said:
Please explain your procedure for doing Panoramic's from D810 ???

Did I say that I used my D810 to make panos? If so, I mis-spoke. Since I have had the D810, I have not done any panos...with anything. But if I did I might use my Gigapan:

The mounting plate I made for the Gigapan doesn't really fit the D810 [it is located too far forward]. I have mostly used the D300 and R1 with the Gigapan.

An alternate would be to build an adapter for my old custom pano head that I built years ago for the 5700:

I have adapters for all my cameras except the D810; I haven't gotten around to making one yet.

I use these devices to eliminate parallax [the camera must be rotated about the entrance pupil], which causes stitching errors. Having a camera that does a so-so job of panoramas is not of use to me or any photographer who is discerning.

tedolf · Jan 21, 2015

chuxter said:
JoePhoto said:

Please explain your procedure for doing Panoramic's from D810 ???

Click to expand...

Did I say that I used my D810 to make panos? If so, I mis-spoke. Since I have had the D810, I have not done any panos...with anything. But if I did I might use my Gigapan:

The mounting plate I made for the Gigapan doesn't really fit the D810 [it is located too far forward]. I have mostly used the D300 and R1 with the Gigapan.

An alternate would be to build an adapter for my old custom pano head that I built years ago for the 5700:

I have adapters for all my cameras except the D810; I haven't gotten around to making one yet.

I use these devices to eliminate parallax [the camera must be rotated about the entrance pupil], which causes stitching errors. Having a camera that does a so-so job of panoramas is not of use to me or any photographer who is discerning.

Careful Chuxter......

you are going to make JoePhoto choke!

TEdolph

chuxter · Jan 21, 2015

tedolf said:
Careful Chuxter......

you are going to make JoePhoto choke!

Not likely. Remember that he's an ex College Professor, so I'm sure he knew how to do it.

exapixel · Jan 21, 2015

Don't blow your budget on a new camera; get a good used digital SLR with an APS-C sized sensor, a prime autofocus lens around 35mm in focal length, and a sturdy tripod. Set the camera mode to M and leave it there. Upgrade in a year once you know what's limiting you.

happysnapper64 · Jan 21, 2015

John Deerfield said:
In order of importance:

1. Your knowledge. This point trumps all others. As example, if I hand the same exact camera & lens to 10 different people and ask them to take a picture of the same subject, I will likely get 10-different images. One of which might stand out from the rest. Why does that image stand out? Knowledge of the photographer. One prime example: composition. A pleasing composition is invaluable to a good image and has virtually nothing to do with gear.

2. The Light. Any camera in the world is simply a tool used to record an exposure: to record light. There isn't any one camera (within reason) that can record light "better" than another. If a light meter tells me my exposure value is f/8, ISO 400, @ 1/250th... then that is my exposure value (exposure settings) for any camera on the planet because that is the light falling on the subject. The four principle characteristics of light are: quality, direction, color and intensity. In addition, a single light source provides "x" amount of contrast. Do you know what the camera can do to control any of those? Absolutely nothing. BTW, I say in my first point that composition has virtually nothing to do with gear. But, lighting is an element in composition that you can exert control over should you desire. At which point, the proper gear can help.

3. The Lens. Exponentially more important than the camera is the lens. The lens gathers the light and then focuses the lighting onto the camera sensor. Do not underestimate this. A common "kit" lens is the 18-55 variety. New, this lens is somewhere around the $200 mark. The professional version of this lens is well north of $1,000. Why do you think that is? Which one do you think gathers and focuses the light more effectively? Another aspect of composition is perspective. Perspective is determined by one thing and one thing only: the distance from which you photograph your subject. The lens will determine your field of view for any given distance.

4. The Camera. Yep, dead last in the equation is the camera. After all is said and done, the only thing the camera does is record the exposure. And they all do this using the same exact math. What's the difference? Well, you have difference in formats such as a Point & Shoot or a DSLR. And then within any given format, there can be different features. One camera might record more frames per second (if that is important to you). Some cameras have more controls on the body and less menu driven. Of course if you never take the camera out of auto, then this won't be important to you! And the list of features goes on. A $5000 DSLR will be built like a tank, offer a high frames per second, have a very fast and accurate auto-focus system (the ability to AF at 10 frames per second or something) and so on. But the resulting exposure isn't going to be overwhelmingly better than a $500 DSLR (most of the differences will be in the lens).

The final thing to keep in mind: all photography is a compromise. Period. When first starting out, you have no idea what compromises you are willing to make. The only way to know what compromises you are willing to make is to go out and take pictures. Learn what you like and don't like about your pictures and how to improve them. And repeat the process.

More good advice by John here. Just to add, like camera bodies, one of the things that makes a "pro" lens so much more expensive, is the build quality. A Canon "L" series lens will cost many times more than the standard "kit" lens & will have better optics, which as a total beginner you may not appreciate till you get more experience & also much better & more robust build quality. Worth bearing in mind before you splash your cash.

JoePhoto · Jan 21, 2015

chuxter said:
JoePhoto said:

BTW: I noticed that specific dSLR has even a "manual-focus" shutter-lag of 300ms. That is the LONGEST I HAVE EVER SEEN on a basic dSLR.

Click to expand...

Why not tell us which dSLR has that unusual specification?

The D3300 that YOU suggested. Check Imaging-Resource for "MANUAL-FOCUS" time.

chuxter said:
chuxter said:

So it must have something to do with the kludge'ie way they have to incorporate Live-View on dSLR's.

Click to expand...

The truth, Joe, is that the FZ1000 has a pre-focus shutter-lag between 101 mS and 112 mS, depending on the FL. Even the post-focus shutter lag was much longer than 20 mS...29 mS according to Dave in that Review. In the dSLR world, pre-focus shutter-lag is greater; you are correct.

No, the "AF" (+ shutter-lag) is about 100ms on FZ-1000. (about 1/3 that of most entry-level dSLR's)

And you seem to be creating your own definitions.

"Pre-Focus" has been the term used since auto-focus was introduced by Minolta in the '80's as after a "half"-press and allowing time to focus before the final push for exposure.

It is what you are referring to as "post" focus. (a term not used by Imaging-Resource)

************

But it is OK "student" -- I am patient and don't mind teaching you proper terminology.

chuxter said:
But 300 mS is much too long!

It may even be a testing error, I can't imagine "manual" focus shutter-lag being that long.

BUT ... it could also be correct and due to the incorporation of Live-View + "easy-Panoramic" on that specific camera.

All I can say is that Live-View (and "easy" Panoramic) is natively easy on mirrorless.

chuxter said:
The D3 has a lag time of 85-88 mS [same tester]! The old D90 has a lag time of 208 mS. The D750 has a lag of 206 mS. The D810 has a lag of 212 mS.

SO, I think it would be proper to claim that your FZ1000 is twice as fast to capture an image as my D810; ie, 112 mS vs 212 mS. I like 112 better than 212, but not enough to put up w/ a tiny 1" sensor.

You are still talking about MUCH more expensive cameras. (and still 2X the time)

And MY POINT is that apples-to-apples comparisons must apply to "Live-View" cameras, where I think 3X is applicable (& 10X/20X is most applicable in actual Live-View mode).

And mirrorless would still win overall because rear-LCD are most often unusable in sun-light and mirrorless (w/ EVF) can indeed use the "eye" level EVF. (I would not have nor recommend a mirrorless w/out "eye" EVF.)

chuxter said:
By now, I have pointed out dozens of your mistakes, thus I don't accept your opinion that you "don't mind acknowledging them".

And do you admit them ???

--
Thanks for reading .... JoePhoto
( Do You Ever STOP to THINK --- and FORGET to START Again ??? )

cberry · Jan 21, 2015

JoePhoto said:
chuxter said:

JoePhoto said:

BTW: I noticed that specific dSLR has even a "manual-focus" shutter-lag of 300ms. That is the LONGEST I HAVE EVER SEEN on a basic dSLR.

Click to expand...

Why not tell us which dSLR has that unusual specification?

Click to expand...

The D3300 that YOU suggested. Check Imaging-Resource for "MANUAL-FOCUS" time.

JoePhoto said:

JoePhoto said:

So it must have something to do with the kludge'ie way they have to incorporate Live-View on dSLR's.

Click to expand...

The truth, Joe, is that the FZ1000 has a pre-focus shutter-lag between 101 mS and 112 mS, depending on the FL. Even the post-focus shutter lag was much longer than 20 mS...29 mS according to Dave in that Review. In the dSLR world, pre-focus shutter-lag is greater; you are correct.

Click to expand...

No, the "AF" (+ shutter-lag) is about 100ms on FZ-1000. (about 1/3 that of most entry-level dSLR's)

And you seem to be creating your own definitions.

"Pre-Focus" has been the term used since auto-focus was introduced by Minolta in the '80's as after a "half"-press and allowing time to focus before the final push for exposure.

It is what you are referring to as "post" focus. (a term not used by Imaging-Resource)

************

But it is OK "student" -- I am patient and don't mind teaching you proper terminology.

JoePhoto said:

But 300 mS is much too long!

Click to expand...

It may even be a testing error, I can't imagine "manual" focus shutter-lag being that long.

BUT ... it could also be correct and due to the incorporation of Live-View + "easy-Panoramic" on that specific camera.

All I can say is that Live-View (and "easy" Panoramic) is natively easy on mirrorless.

JoePhoto said:

The D3 has a lag time of 85-88 mS [same tester]! The old D90 has a lag time of 208 mS. The D750 has a lag of 206 mS. The D810 has a lag of 212 mS.

SO, I think it would be proper to claim that your FZ1000 is twice as fast to capture an image as my D810; ie, 112 mS vs 212 mS. I like 112 better than 212, but not enough to put up w/ a tiny 1" sensor.

Click to expand...

You are still talking about MUCH more expensive cameras. (and still 2X the time)

And MY POINT is that apples-to-apples comparisons must apply to "Live-View" cameras, where I think 3X is applicable (& 10X/20X is most applicable in actual Live-View mode).

And mirrorless would still win overall because rear-LCD are most often unusable in sun-light and mirrorless (w/ EVF) can indeed use the "eye" level EVF. (I would not have nor recommend a mirrorless w/out "eye" EVF.)

JoePhoto said:

By now, I have pointed out dozens of your mistakes, thus I don't accept your opinion that you "don't mind acknowledging them".

Click to expand...

And do you admit them ???

munchaussen · Jan 21, 2015

Totally agree. Get an used one, and you will save money to spent with wisdom in a year.(you will be able to decide what type of photography u like, wich type of camera u need for that, and wich lenses). Is allways the same at starting. One year ago i was just like you Drenny1982. I bought a D3100 (u$s 450).

--
"...and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." ? John 8:32
“If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed.” ? Mark Twain

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