Why does sharpness of zeiss 55mm vary based on body (Fe and Dx)?

Craig gave you the answer. DXO scores are combination scores of lens plus body. The smaller APS -C sensor needs to be enlarged more than a FF sensor when making a print. If you never crop or print huge, this sharpness difference can be ignored.

--
Steve Bingham
www.dustylens.com
www.ghost-town-photography.com
 
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Because the resolving power of the lens exceeds the resolving power of the A6000 sensor.
You're kidding, right?

24MP APS-C equals 54MP full frame(too many pixels cramped on a small area), so it becomes much more demanding of the lens. A lens might outresolve a full frame sensor but incapable of producing sharpness across the frame on a cropped sensor body. In other words, assuming the same technology for both sensors, a 24MP full frame sensor is much more forgiving than a 24MP cropped sensor.
 
Take a look at how well the Otuses do on 24MP APS-C. That's how well they'll do on 54MP full frame.
I went to DXO and compared out the Measurements>Sharpness and CA field maps and profiles of the FE55 on the A6000, the Sigma 60mm DN A on the A6000, the Otus 55 on the Nikon D7100, and the Sigma 50mm 1.4 Art on the Canon 70D (closest to 24Mp APS-C DXO has tested).

It was very interesting to see how well my Sigma 60mm compared with the Sigma 50, Otus 55 and the FE55.

I don't use f/1.4 - f/2 except for my Minolta 58 f/1.2 that I've had since the early '70s, but I reserve that as a "specialty" lens for the particular rendering it has, so a largest aperture of 2.8 is fine by me. For my money (only $200) I'll probably keep using the Sigma for the majority of my work at that FL range.
 
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I was just checking DxO scores for the sel55f18z

on a6000 - 15P-MpiX - 27 Dxo Score

on a7r - 29P-MpiX - 42 DxO score.

Why is there such significant differences?
You are not just comparing sensor sizes with these bodies, but also resolution (number of pixels). A larger sensor will give higher resolution, and a greater number of pixels provides higher resolution.

If DXO had tested the FE 55 on an A7, it would score in between the other two, but probably closer to the a6000 than the A7R, especially since the A7R does not have a blur filter.

Here's a similar comparison using Nikon bodies and Otus:
  1. 24mp DX* = 21mp
  2. 24mp FX = 23mp
  3. 36mp FX = 29mp
http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compa...ikon-on-Nikon-D610___1242_0_1242_865_1242_915

*The D7100 has no blur filter, which would probably give it a 10% advantage vs. the others.

--
Dan
 
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I was just checking DxO scores for the sel55f18z

on a6000 - 15P-MpiX - 27 Dxo Score

on a7r - 29P-MpiX - 42 DxO score.

Why is there such significant differences?
I don't know where they derive their scores from nor I pretend to care. I'm a visual learner and no amount of scores will persuade or discourage me to buy a lens. Prior to getting the Sonnar 55 I asked Brian on this forum what he thought of the Sonnar 55 with my NEX-6, he replied with a beautiful portrait of an actor and I also went to his site to check out his work. The following day I went to my camera store. Heck, my thinking was if it is good enough for a great portrait photographer like Brian, it certainly was good enough for me. I had the same approach from looking at the superb images I saw from Canon shooters be it the ones who regularly shoot the SI swimsuit pictorials to the fine fashion photographers to the tennis pro photographers shooting for Getty Images----------if the camera/lens is good for them, it certainly is good enough for me.

BTW, this thing about FF lenses are for FF DSLRs for me is a bunch of crap. I might sound like a broken record here but I started with Canon 10 years ago with the 20D. I can tell you that there are a lot of Canon APS-C and APS-H (1.27x 1D-series) who buy and use FF lenses like the L series. They buy it because of:

http://www.shutterbug.com/content/w...and-why-you-may-or-may-not-need-them-yourself

Moreover, I've been asked a few times why recommend the Sonnar for APS-C than the SEL50? I started with the SEL and it is an excellent lens at a reasonable price. However, I find that the Sonnar is in another higher level not just in terms of color, contrast, CA/flare control and built-------but AF performance is a lot better. It's just up to you to decide if the substantial price difference is worth it.

Cheers,

José
Thank you! I actually have the 50mm. I just wanted to know why there is a difference
 
I keep hearing some members here saying ff sensor is less stressful on lenses in general and many don't have the resolving power to resolve a highly-densed 24mp APS-C sensor?
Yes it is the other way around.

Let me put it this way, the pixel density of the a6000 is so high that if a full frame sensor had the same pixel density, it'd have 54MP.
Which would be nice.
How well do you think the Zeiss 55 would do on a 54MP full frame sensor?

Yeah, exactly. The sensor would magnify the optical defects.
It is better to think of smaller pixels as recording the blur from aberrations (including diffraction) more accurately. The better this point spread function is recorded, the greater the opportunity for deconvolution software to recover "lost" detail.

The sensor should be better than the best lens.
Take a look at the Zeiss Otus lenses for DSLRs. Those lenses are built with futureproofing in mind. They will be ready for 54MP full frame sensors (which are likely coming out later this year though some rumors say 46MP instead of 54MP). Take a look at how well the Otuses do on 24MP APS-C. That's how well they'll do on 54MP full frame.
I think 46 or 48 MP is more likely, but the difference is negligible. (Except in processing time -- more pixels means fewer frames per second.)
 
Because the resolving power of the lens exceeds the resolving power of the A6000 sensor.
Is that true?

Without having an in-depth understanding of how these scores are measured, it doesn't seem logical - why doesn't it score 24P-MpiX on a 24mp sensor? I'm sure there's a reason!

As a side note, is it hypothetically/technically possible for any lens to score 24P-MpiX on the A6000 or any other 24mp sensor?
As others have already postulated, its probably more to do with sensor pixel size. The FE lens is obviously designed primarily for the FF sensors pixel size so probably resolves better with it than the asp-c sensor.

A possible excuse for my error is that I think of the A6000 as a replacement for the Nex 6 I used to own, which had a lower megapixel sensor and I forget that it's now 24mp. Perhaps "Because the resolving power of the lens exceeds the resolving power of the NEX 6 sensor." would be correct.
 
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A possible excuse for my error is that I think of the A6000 as a replacement for the Nex 6 I used to own, which had a lower megapixel sensor and I forget that it's now 24mp. Perhaps "Because the resolving power of the lens exceeds the resolving power of the NEX 6 sensor." would be correct.
The Nex-6 has a 16mp sensor. Expanding that pixel pitch to FF would be 36mp which matches that of the A7R where the FE55 works very, very well. So it seems the Nex-6 and A7R have about the same pixel size. Using the points made about pixel size, the FE55 should theoretically work equally well on both the A7R and the Nex-6.

Has anyone tried the FE55 on a Nex-6?
 
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I keep hearing some members here saying ff sensor is less stressful on lenses in general and many don't have the resolving power to resolve a highly-densed 24mp APS-C sensor?
Yes it is the other way around.

Let me put it this way, the pixel density of the a6000 is so high that if a full frame sensor had the same pixel density, it'd have 54MP.
Which would be nice.
How well do you think the Zeiss 55 would do on a 54MP full frame sensor?

Yeah, exactly. The sensor would magnify the optical defects.
It is better to think of smaller pixels as recording the blur from aberrations (including diffraction) more accurately. The better this point spread function is recorded, the greater the opportunity for deconvolution software to recover "lost" detail.

The sensor should be better than the best lens.
Take a look at the Zeiss Otus lenses for DSLRs. Those lenses are built with futureproofing in mind. They will be ready for 54MP full frame sensors (which are likely coming out later this year though some rumors say 46MP instead of 54MP). Take a look at how well the Otuses do on 24MP APS-C. That's how well they'll do on 54MP full frame.
I think 46 or 48 MP is more likely, but the difference is negligible. (Except in processing time -- more pixels means fewer frames per second.)
Nice explanation and you just provided me with a new perspective (that the sensor should ideally out-resolve the lens in order for software correction to be more effective) all blogs and sites I have been to haven't managed to explain or rather did not have this knowledge.

Thanks again, I really enjoy your contribution in this forum!
 
A possible excuse for my error is that I think of the A6000 as a replacement for the Nex 6 I used to own, which had a lower megapixel sensor and I forget that it's now 24mp. Perhaps "Because the resolving power of the lens exceeds the resolving power of the NEX 6 sensor." would be correct.
The Nex-6 has a 16mp sensor. Expanding that pixel pitch to FF would be 36mp which matches that of the A7R where the FE55 works very, very well. So it seems the Nex-6 and A7R have about the same pixel size. Using the points made about pixel size, the FE55 should theoretically work equally well on both the A7R and the Nex-6.
No way. A larger sensor provides higher resolution, all else being equal. More megapixels provide higher resolution, all else being equal. Add both together for A7R vs. NEX6. 35mp has much higher resolution than 16mp APS-C, regardless of the lens used. You can confirm this at DXO using the same lens on a Nikon D800 and D7000.

Has anyone tried the FE55 on a Nex-6?
DXOMark shows clearly that 24mp APS-C has higher resolution than 16mp APS-C, regardless of whether you use a humble lens or the best.


Part of the D7100 advantage is due to the lack of an AA filter, but most of the advantage is due to 24 vs. 16 megapixels.
 
A possible excuse for my error is that I think of the A6000 as a replacement for the Nex 6 I used to own, which had a lower megapixel sensor and I forget that it's now 24mp. Perhaps "Because the resolving power of the lens exceeds the resolving power of the NEX 6 sensor." would be correct.
The Nex-6 has a 16mp sensor. Expanding that pixel pitch to FF would be 36mp which matches that of the A7R where the FE55 works very, very well. So it seems the Nex-6 and A7R have about the same pixel size. Using the points made about pixel size, the FE55 should theoretically work equally well on both the A7R and the Nex-6.
No way. A larger sensor provides higher resolution, all else being equal.
Actually the Nex-6 and A7R have a similar pixel pitch (~4.8um) therefore the same resolution with the Nex-6 just being a crop of the FF sensor. The A7r only has more pixels due to it's size but the resolution would be the same as far as lens performance is concerned.
 
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I was just checking DxO scores for the sel55f18z

on a6000 - 15P-MpiX - 27 Dxo Score

on a7r - 29P-MpiX - 42 DxO score.

Why is there such significant differences?
You are not just comparing sensor sizes with these bodies, but also resolution (number of pixels). A larger sensor will give higher resolution, and a greater number of pixels provides higher resolution.
From a lens performance POV, as requested by the OP, it's the density of the pixels/number of pixels per square mm that's the more important factor rather than the size of the sensor.
 
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A possible excuse for my error is that I think of the A6000 as a replacement for the Nex 6 I used to own, which had a lower megapixel sensor and I forget that it's now 24mp. Perhaps "Because the resolving power of the lens exceeds the resolving power of the NEX 6 sensor." would be correct.
The Nex-6 has a 16mp sensor. Expanding that pixel pitch to FF would be 36mp which matches that of the A7R where the FE55 works very, very well. So it seems the Nex-6 and A7R have about the same pixel size. Using the points made about pixel size, the FE55 should theoretically work equally well on both the A7R and the Nex-6.
No way. A larger sensor provides higher resolution, all else being equal.
Actually the Nex-6 and A7R have a similar pixel pitch (~4.8um) therefore the same resolution with the Nex-6 just being a crop of the FF sensor. The A7r only has more pixels due to it's size but the resolution would be the same as far as lens performance is concerned.
No. Having sample pixel pitch does not mean same resolution (per height).

If you use lines per height (of the image) it immediately becomes obvious that the APSC only captures a cropped part of the FF image. So if the lens is at its maximum resolution on the FF sensor (e.g. 1000 lines per height of 24 mm), the cropped picture will be only be 15.7 mm / 24 mm = 65 % => 650 lines per height.

This holds true unless the lens outresolves the APSC-sensor. Only in this case you will get more lines per height than those 650 ones. But you will not get higher resolution with APSC than with FF if total number of piels is the same.

If the sensor outresolves the lens, you will only get a sharper image of those 650 lines, but not more.
 
I was just checking DxO scores for the sel55f18z

on a6000 - 15P-MpiX - 27 Dxo Score

on a7r - 29P-MpiX - 42 DxO score.

Why is there such significant differences?
I don't know where they derive their scores from nor I pretend to care. I'm a visual learner and no amount of scores will persuade or discourage me to buy a lens. Prior to getting the Sonnar 55 I asked Brian on this forum what he thought of the Sonnar 55 with my NEX-6, he replied with a beautiful portrait of an actor and I also went to his site to check out his work. The following day I went to my camera store. Heck, my thinking was if it is good enough for a great portrait photographer like Brian, it certainly was good enough for me. I had the same approach from looking at the superb images I saw from Canon shooters be it the ones who regularly shoot the SI swimsuit pictorials to the fine fashion photographers to the tennis pro photographers shooting for Getty Images----------if the camera/lens is good for them, it certainly is good enough for me.

BTW, this thing about FF lenses are for FF DSLRs for me is a bunch of crap. I might sound like a broken record here but I started with Canon 10 years ago with the 20D. I can tell you that there are a lot of Canon APS-C and APS-H (1.27x 1D-series) who buy and use FF lenses like the L series. They buy it because of:

http://www.shutterbug.com/content/w...and-why-you-may-or-may-not-need-them-yourself

Moreover, I've been asked a few times why recommend the Sonnar for APS-C than the SEL50? I started with the SEL and it is an excellent lens at a reasonable price. However, I find that the Sonnar is in another higher level not just in terms of color, contrast, CA/flare control and built-------but AF performance is a lot better. It's just up to you to decide if the substantial price difference is worth it.

Cheers,

José
Thank you! I actually have the 50mm. I just wanted to know why there is a difference
You're welcome. One other difference I forgot to include here is that extra 5mm. It doesn't matter for a lot of people but for me it does. I find that 75mm or 70mm (in FF equivalent) to be a bit short for head shot portraits. The 55mm for my A6000/NEX-6 is close enough for that classic 85mm----excellent for close up portraits.
 
I was just checking DxO scores for the sel55f18z

on a6000 - 15P-MpiX - 27 Dxo Score

on a7r - 29P-MpiX - 42 DxO score.

Why is there such significant differences?
You are not just comparing sensor sizes with these bodies, but also resolution (number of pixels). A larger sensor will give higher resolution, and a greater number of pixels provides higher resolution.
From a lens performance POV, as requested by the OP, it's the density of the pixels/number of pixels per square mm that's the more important factor rather than the size of the sensor.
Nope, forget pixel pitch, it will only lead to the wrong answer. Here's the evidence, using the Otus 55mm:
  • D7000 (APS-C, 16mp sensor), sharpness is 14mp
  • D600 (FF, 24mp sensor), sharpness is 22mp
  • D800 (FF, 36mp sensor, same pixel pitch as D7000), sharpness is 29mp

A larger sensor, all else being equal, will give higher resolution, and a greater number of pixels, all else being equal, will give higher resolution. If you have both a larger sensor and more pixels, they add up to make an even greater difference in resolution.
 
A possible excuse for my error is that I think of the A6000 as a replacement for the Nex 6 I used to own, which had a lower megapixel sensor and I forget that it's now 24mp. Perhaps "Because the resolving power of the lens exceeds the resolving power of the NEX 6 sensor." would be correct.
The Nex-6 has a 16mp sensor. Expanding that pixel pitch to FF would be 36mp which matches that of the A7R where the FE55 works very, very well. So it seems the Nex-6 and A7R have about the same pixel size. Using the points made about pixel size, the FE55 should theoretically work equally well on both the A7R and the Nex-6.
No way. A larger sensor provides higher resolution, all else being equal.
Actually the Nex-6 and A7R have a similar pixel pitch (~4.8um) therefore the same resolution with the Nex-6 just being a crop of the FF sensor. The A7r only has more pixels due to it's size but the resolution would be the same as far as lens performance is concerned.
Look at the DXO results below. The NEX-6 uses the same sensor as the Nikon D7000. The A7R uses the same sensor as the Nikon D800E. The Zeiss Otus 55mm is comparable in performance to the FE 55. The sharpness results shown below demonstrate that pixel pitch is not the answer to the OP's question. The correct answer is a combination of sensor size, increased megapixels, and lack of a blur filter in the A7R.
  • D7000 sharpness, 14mp
  • D800E sharpness, 33mp
 
A possible excuse for my error is that I think of the A6000 as a replacement for the Nex 6 I used to own, which had a lower megapixel sensor and I forget that it's now 24mp. Perhaps "Because the resolving power of the lens exceeds the resolving power of the NEX 6 sensor." would be correct.
The Nex-6 has a 16mp sensor. Expanding that pixel pitch to FF would be 36mp which matches that of the A7R where the FE55 works very, very well. So it seems the Nex-6 and A7R have about the same pixel size. Using the points made about pixel size, the FE55 should theoretically work equally well on both the A7R and the Nex-6.
No way. A larger sensor provides higher resolution, all else being equal.
Actually the Nex-6 and A7R have a similar pixel pitch (~4.8um) therefore the same resolution with the Nex-6 just being a crop of the FF sensor. The A7r only has more pixels due to it's size but the resolution would be the same as far as lens performance is concerned.
No. Having sample pixel pitch does not mean same resolution (per height).
If you use lines per height (of the image) it immediately becomes obvious that the APSC only captures a cropped part of the FF image. So if the lens is at its maximum resolution on the FF sensor (e.g. 1000 lines per height of 24 mm), the cropped picture will be only be 15.7 mm / 24 mm = 65 % => 650 lines per height.
Thank you for the clear technical explanation.
 
Because the resolving power of the lens exceeds the resolving power of the A6000 sensor.
Um isn't that the other way around?

I keep hearing some members here saying ff sensor is less stressful on lenses in general and many don't have the resolving power to resolve a highly-densed 24mp APS-C sensor?

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kin2son/
http://www.gettyimages.com/search/photographer?photographer=Kinson+C+Photography
Yes it is the other way around.

Let me put it this way, the pixel density of the a6000 is so high that if a full frame sensor had the same pixel density, it'd have 54MP.

How well do you think the Zeiss 55 would do on a 54MP full frame sensor?
It will do better (have higher resolution) than on a 36mp FF sensor.
Yeah, exactly. The sensor would magnify the optical defects.
But there will still be a large net gain in resolution, probably around 50% based on these results:

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Best...-I/Nikon-D7100-results-ultra-high-performance

The D7100 (same sensor as NEX7) shows a 50% increase in resolution over the D7000 (same pixel pitch as NEX6 and A7R) with high quality lenses. Even crummy lenses showed 30% higher resolution on a 24mp sensor vs. 16mp.
Take a look at the Zeiss Otus lenses for DSLRs. Those lenses are built with futureproofing in mind. They will be ready for 54MP full frame sensors (which are likely coming out later this year though some rumors say 46MP instead of 54MP). Take a look at how well the Otuses do on 24MP APS-C. That's how well they'll do on 54MP full frame.
The Otus will easily score twice as high for sharpness on a 54mp FF sensor vs. a 24mp APS-C sensor.

--
Dan
 
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