it's still a 3MP camera

Just to make it clear what "that point" is. Its that the SD-9 is a 10.2MP class camera. The point has 3 sub-points:

1- All Bayer cameras' MP rating is interpolated, not actual.
2- The Foveon could do the same: count 1/3rd pixels as pixels.
3 - Doing #2 would only provide an inferior image.

sg10 said:

Ladehaug said:

sg10 said:

Illustrate your maturity level all you want, it won't change the
fact that you didn't know 6MP 10D images are interpolated up from
only 2MP of full color information. The SD9 could do the same,
but chooses not to. Just as Canon could form single pixels by
integrating groups of full color sensors and producing a
non-interpolated 2MP image, the SD-9 could interpolate up to 10.2MP
to produce the same blurry artifact prone image using Bayer
algorithms. Sigma should provide the option just to make that
point.

Click to expand...

It doesn't work that way. A 10Mp bayer image will in most cases
resolve a lot more detail than a 3.4Mp Foveon image. However, the
sharpness of a Foveon image resembles what you can get by
downsizing a bayer image 50% (to 1/4 of its initial megapixel
count). Sharpness and spatial resolution are two different issues.

Click to expand...

I understand exactly what you are saying, but again, Sigma should
provide the option just to make that point.

Click to expand...

Actually there is 4...

sg10 said:

Just to make it clear what "that point" is. Its that the SD-9 is a
10.2MP class camera. The point has 3 sub-points:

1- All Bayer cameras' MP rating is interpolated, not actual.
2- The Foveon could do the same: count 1/3rd pixels as pixels.
3 - Doing #2 would only provide an inferior image.

Click to expand...

4- To acknowledge that the "x3" nomenclature was too subtle for the average user to catch.

Please stop that mess.

The Bayer cameras can interpolate better because they have the luminance data for all 10 million points. If Foveon does the same interpolation they don't have the luminance data of 10 million points, only of 3.5 million points and therefore it won't work out. Punkt!

Dominic

sg10 said:

sg10 said:

Just to make it clear what "that point" is. Its that the SD-9 is a
10.2MP class camera. The point has 3 sub-points:

1- All Bayer cameras' MP rating is interpolated, not actual.
2- The Foveon could do the same: count 1/3rd pixels as pixels.
3 - Doing #2 would only provide an inferior image.

Click to expand...

4- To acknowledge that the "x3" nomenclature was too subtle for the
average user to catch.

Click to expand...

--
http://www.domgross.de
please don't run away because of the cheap design of the first page
ICQ UIN: 289647506

This guy, and the other whose been trolling on CSTF lately are quite the abnormal for the SD9 "usuals". While some are pretty "blindly in love" with their cameras, MOST completely understand exactly what they are getting. Furthermore, they're happy with what they have and DON'T feel the need to spread FUD. I respect those SD9'rs..

but the few trolls and ignorant fools? Please.. don't you (normal, nice, regular SSTF guys) want to ask these guys to chill??? For your own sake?

--Steve

Dominic Groß said:

Please stop that mess.

The Bayer cameras can interpolate better because they have the
luminance data for all 10 million points. If Foveon does the same
interpolation they don't have the luminance data of 10 million
points, only of 3.5 million points and therefore it won't work out.
Punkt!

Click to expand...

I don't mind saying it again... They should include an SPP interpolation module to make the point that the SD-9 is a 10.2MP class camera. This has absolutely nothing to do with "improving" the quality of SD-9 images by forcibly inducing interpolation artifacts and fuzzier images.

The "X3" nomenclature has failed in its ability to convey what is going on with this unique little 3.5MP camera. Sigma/Foveon cannot expect people to go figure a rather complex issue out on their own, its not going to happen. Just look at the confusion among 10D users in this thread, who actually thought the 6MP Canon had more photosensors than the 3.5MP SD-9 when they plunked down their money.

Says the guy who posted "ha ha" when politely informed that Bayer mosiacs count 1/3rd-color pixels when interpolating up to arrive at an MP count.

This thread beautifully illustrates when Sigma is up against. Bayer interpolation cameras have established an unquestioned paradigm that 1/3rd-color pixels are what matter when determining MP count.

The 6MP DSLR users clearly had no idea that the MP rating of their cameras meant they had 6M R, G, or B sensors, as opposed to the 3.5MP SD-9's 3.5M R, G, and B sensors. Further, the subtle difference between "and" and "or" in that statement, even after all of this, remains lost on them. And why should Sigma expext otherwise?

Rather than trying to explain this 8 different ways to people who just don't get it, they should simply provide an SPP module that does what people are used to. Yes, I know, an interpolated 10.2MP SD-9 image file will look just as blurry and artifact prone as the "legitimate" 6MP class DSLRs that use 2MP's worth of full color data to interpolate up to a 6MP image file. That's the beauty of it, after all.

Stephen Waits said:

This guy, and the other whose been trolling on CSTF lately are
quite the abnormal for the SD9 "usuals". While some are pretty
"blindly in love" with their cameras, MOST completely understand
exactly what they are getting. Furthermore, they're happy with
what they have and DON'T feel the need to spread FUD. I respect
those SD9'rs..

but the few trolls and ignorant fools? Please.. don't you
(normal, nice, regular SSTF guys) want to ask these guys to
chill??? For your own sake?

--Steve

Click to expand...

I have tried doubling the size with Sigma PhotoPro software to 4536x3024.
which is 13716864 pixels.

The resolution is still good.
To be fair, take this number for any comparsion.

I will print the whole image (over 8M) on 16 pages A4 size with Lexmark.

clickdotinc said:

the SD9.

for the same money, I'll take 10D

unless the next version gives me 6MP, for the same money

Click to expand...

But it already has the 14mp mode that works great. It does not give you the details a 1Ds or 14n might give you but it illustrates your point.

--
http://www.domgross.de
please don't run away because of the cheap design of the first page
ICQ UIN: 289647506

Ladehaug said:

sg10 said:

Illustrate your maturity level all you want, it won't change the
fact that you didn't know 6MP 10D images are interpolated up from
only 2MP of full color information. The SD9 could do the same,
but chooses not to. Just as Canon could form single pixels by
integrating groups of full color sensors and producing a
non-interpolated 2MP image, the SD-9 could interpolate up to 10.2MP
to produce the same blurry artifact prone image using Bayer
algorithms. Sigma should provide the option just to make that
point.

Click to expand...

It doesn't work that way. A 10Mp bayer image will in most cases
resolve a lot more detail than a 3.4Mp Foveon image.

Click to expand...

Resolution isn't directly related to simple MP rating, so one really shouldn't quantify or compare resolution in units of MPs. Foveon is the perfect illustration of why not. Fuji is another example, but for the opposite reason, they cook their CCDs to optimize performance on common B&W vertical/horizon resolution tests, at the expense of real world, multi-color, multi-axis resolution.

Ladehaug said:

However, the
sharpness of a Foveon image resembles what you can get by
downsizing a bayer image 50% (to 1/4 of its initial megapixel
count). Sharpness and spatial resolution are two different issues.

Click to expand...

Certainly. And resolution shouldn't be oversimplified. Fuji likes to take advantage of that tendency as mentioned above via their brick pattern sensor orientation. And Bayer's in general are optimized to resolve B&W at the expensive of other color combinations, which also coincidentally suits the commonly established test criteria.

Ladehaug said:

Ladehaug said:

Running the Foveon case without an AA filter gives much higher
numbers for distortion. Although the image may appear sharper, this
is false sharpness, similar to "comfort noise".

Click to expand...

IMO, the sharpness/aliasing does not disturb the picture at all in
most cases. I find that bayer interpolation, on the average,
introduces more disturbing artifacts. Of course, the Foveon sensor
with an AA filter would be desirable in some cases, but I think it
would seriously hamper the sharpness and spatial resolution -
something that would not be desirable for a 3.4Mp sensor. I do not
know much about AA filters, so I might be wrong. But it I'm sure it
would not come cheap to implement and manufacture a high quality AA
filter for the Foveon sensor.

Click to expand...

Why not just use Sigma's 14MP interpolated output option?