Client asking me for all raw files.

Michael Thomas Mitchell said:

...I can count the number OOF images on my two hands...

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<pedantic note> Using binary notation you can count to 1023 on two hands (assuming you still have all your fingers and thumbs and a high degree of manual dexterity) </pedantic note>

dwight3 said:

Michael Thomas Mitchell said:

...I can count the number OOF images on my two hands...

Click to expand...

<pedantic note> Using binary notation you can count to 1023 on two hands (assuming you still have all your fingers and thumbs and a high degree of manual dexterity) </pedantic note>

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<even more pedantic note> If you have a really high degree of manual dexterity, each finger can be up, down, or in the middle (base 3). This allows you to count to 59,048 on your 10 well trained fingers. </even more pedantic note>

Michael Fryd said:

dwight3 said:

Michael Thomas Mitchell said:

...I can count the number OOF images on my two hands...

Click to expand...

<pedantic note> Using binary notation you can count to 1023 on two hands (assuming you still have all your fingers and thumbs and a high degree of manual dexterity) </pedantic note>

Click to expand...

<even more pedantic note> If you have a really high degree of manual dexterity, each finger can be up, down, or in the middle (base 3). This allows you to count to 59,048 on your 10 well trained fingers. </even more pedantic note>

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I find this whole conversation shallow and pedantic. - Peter Griffin

dwight3 said:

sledzik102 said:

Thank you all for help. I definitely got my answer and decided not to give them the raw files...

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Glad we could supply you with enough answers to give you options.

dwight3 said:

...The one learning for the future is...say how many? I am not sure...

In typical wedding 12 hours I shoot 1500 - 2000 and give 700-1000...

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1500-2000 is not unreasonable for a wedding. It might even be on the low side, particularly if you have a second shooter. It sounds like 700-1000 is probably too many to send the clients. My keeper rate is significantly below 50%, but maybe that's just me. I would think that with that many shots there are probably many duplicates, or at least very similar shots. I have seen many weddings where single-use cameras were provided for the guests to take pictures with. I rather doubt that many of those pictures make it into the wedding album. The reason the celebrants hire a photographer is so they can make the hard choices between similar shots and pick out the best ones.

I generally take 3-4 shots of groups because sometimes people look away or blink. A number of shots allow me to select the best one. I wouldn't send the client all of them, even if they were all technically perfect.

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Yeah. Dancing at the reception also = low keeper rate.

dwight3 said:

My estimate of a reasonable keeper rate is 10-20%. Beyond that, the clients will have too many choices and it will make their end of the job harder.

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Same here. Last wedding, I delivered about 25%, maybe 100 extra reception images that I didn't think were all that special, just because there were a lot of guests and I knew the couple wanted to see photos of as many of them as possible. I delivered about 650 out of 2500 shots made over two days, and I felt like that was a lot for the couple to look at, but I couldn't, in good conscience, pare it down any further.

On conferences, I'll typically shoot 800-1000 images in a day and deliver about 30%. More controlled environment and slower shooting = higher keeper rate.

sledzik102 said:

I am wedding photographer with 5 years experience and over 100 weddings.

Client asking me for ALL raw files.

Would you give it or if not how would you explain it.

It is not in the contract. Between two photographers we shot 4000 images and client got 1400 JPEGs.

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Nope. The raw files aren't the finished product. Assuming the contract is for delivery of prints, final electronic images, an album, etc. and not the raw files - particularly all of them - then that's one request I would politely decline.

dwight3 said:

So what do you do with the RAW files? Do you keep them forever? Do you think the client will come back for more jpegs in a few years so you can make some more money?

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That's beside the point. The raw files are not a finished product. It would be like ordering a cake from the bakery but asking for delivery of only the ingredients and not the cake. I don't know any wedding photographers that print the image exactly as it comes from the camera. First, there's editing of the complete set of shot images down to the ones that will be edited, then there's editing of those to a final image.

dwight3 said:

I know a lot of people don't like to release their originals. But are they really any use to you? Sure, you could use the images in your portfolio, but sending copies to the client won't prevent you from doing that. Assuming this is one of the weddings you've done, the photos could be valuable to the client (and family) for the next 100 years or more. Or maybe they're just curious and want to see the outtakes.

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A good photographer will not and should not share their "outtakes". Only show your best work, period.

dwight3 said:

How about selling the RAW files to the client? With a contract allowing you to use them (and derivative works) for your portfolio and other business purposes (e.g. advertising).

(Depending on your contract with your second shooter, they would have to agree).

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I know a lot of local pros, and not one would even sell the raw images. They are not the final image.

Mark B. said:

Member said:

...

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That's beside the point. The raw files are not a finished product. It would be like ordering a cake from the bakery but asking for delivery of only the ingredients and not the cake. I don't know any wedding photographers that print the image exactly as it comes from the camera. First, there's editing of the complete set of shot images down to the ones that will be edited, then there's editing of those to a final image.

Click to expand...

Yet, IKEA is a very successful company. They don't sell the finished product. They sell kits to build your desk/dresser/etc.

IKEA is happy to arrange delivery and actually build the product, but these are extra cost services.

There are many business models.

Member said:

Member said:

I....

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A good photographer will not and should not share their "outtakes". Only show your best work, period.

Click to expand...

While this is oft repeated advice, it is just one way of running your business.

Member said:

Member said:

...

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I know a lot of local pros, and not one would even sell the raw images. They are not the final image.

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Again, this is their business model.

There is nothing that says every photographer must have exactly the same business model.

Some photographers never provide files. They only sell prints. They position themselves as high end artists. They charge a fortune, then spend a good percentage of that marketing themselves.

10 years ago this was the typical model, but times have changed. In todays market, it's much harder to be successful if you refuse to provide digital files.

Some photographers only provide files, and don't offer prints.

In order to be a successful photographer you need to offer what your clients are willing to pay for, or you need to convince your clients to be willing to pay for what you offer.

There absolutely is a market for clients wanting all the images from a wedding. Even the bad images. For many people, it is not the quality of the images that's important, but the people in the images. These are their friends and family. In 20 or 30 years, they will look back at their friends, and smile and laugh. You could give them images from a locked off security camera and they would enjoy them. It's not just the beautiful album that has value, but the actual images that show people as they are. Sometimes the images that don't show people at their best, are the ones we want to see in 20 years. These are the images that show people as they are, not the images that show people as they want to be.

It is not uncommon to see outtakes behind the credits of a movie. People enjoy the less than perfect images.

I am not suggesting that every wedding photographer always give every image. I am suggesting that it is not a crazy thing to offer every image. In fact, I can see it as an additional marketing point. Most photographers only give you the images they think are good. Hire me, and you also get all the images so you have more memories of your special day!

A photographer delivers 2,000 pictures to a client.

The client spends 10 seconds looking at each picture.

That's not very long to look at a well composed image or creatively posed people on a very special day. But lets use 10 seconds as an average, allowing 20 seconds for some shots and 5 seconds for some others.

2,000 pictures at 10 seconds each takes 20,000 seconds.

Divide 20,000 by 60 seconds, allow a little extra time to look at the best shots, and we learn it takes about 360 minutes to look at the 2,000 images for 10 seconds each.

360 minutes is six hours.

I think supplying a client with pictures that takes the client six hours to look at means that the photographer is just plain lazy and untalented and unable to do the job of making a photographic remembrance of a wedding.

Unless my math is wrong.

Can someone double check for me, please?

BAK

Michael Fryd said:

Mark B. said:

Michael Fryd said:

...

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That's beside the point. The raw files are not a finished product. It would be like ordering a cake from the bakery but asking for delivery of only the ingredients and not the cake. I don't know any wedding photographers that print the image exactly as it comes from the camera. First, there's editing of the complete set of shot images down to the ones that will be edited, then there's editing of those to a final image.

Click to expand...

Yet, IKEA is a very successful company. They don't sell the finished product. They sell kits to build your desk/dresser/etc.

IKEA is happy to arrange delivery and actually build the product, but these are extra cost services.

There are many business models.

Click to expand...

IKEA is not unique in that regard. There are many pieces of furniture that are sold that require assembly. It's easier to ship furniture this way. Completely different than raw files, however.

Michael Fryd said:

Michael Fryd said:

Michael Fryd said:

I....

Click to expand...

A good photographer will not and should not share their "outtakes". Only show your best work, period.

Click to expand...

While this is oft repeated advice, it is just one way of running your business.

Click to expand...

It's a very good way to run a business. Would IKEA sell the pieces that came out broken? Would you buy a lens with a cracked element, or is de-centered?

Michael Fryd said:

Michael Fryd said:

Michael Fryd said:

...

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I know a lot of local pros, and not one would even sell the raw images. They are not the final image.

Click to expand...

Again, this is their business model.

There is nothing that says every photographer must have exactly the same business model.

Some photographers never provide files. They only sell prints. They position themselves as high end artists. They charge a fortune, then spend a good percentage of that marketing themselves.

10 years ago this was the typical model, but times have changed. In todays market, it's much harder to be successful if you refuse to provide digital files.

Click to expand...

Digital files of the final edited images, sure. Not the raw images and not the raw images that didn't get processed.

Michael Fryd said:

Some photographers only provide files, and don't offer prints.

In order to be a successful photographer you need to offer what your clients are willing to pay for, or you need to convince your clients to be willing to pay for what you offer.

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The latter. Offering images that are sub-par is not a good business model, regardless of what the client wants. Sorry, but the customer is not always right.

Michael Fryd said:

There absolutely is a market for clients wanting all the images from a wedding. Even the bad images. For many people, it is not the quality of the images that's important, but the people in the images. These are their friends and family. In 20 or 30 years, they will look back at their friends, and smile and laugh. You could give them images from a locked off security camera and they would enjoy them. It's not just the beautiful album that has value, but the actual images that show people as they are. Sometimes the images that don't show people at their best, are the ones we want to see in 20 years. These are the images that show people as they are, not the images that show people as they want to be.

It is not uncommon to see outtakes behind the credits of a movie. People enjoy the less than perfect images.

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Those are there for humor. There's nothign funny about an out of focus image, or one that is completely blown out or drastically underexposed.

Michael Fryd said:

I am not suggesting that every wedding photographer always give every image. I am suggesting that it is not a crazy thing to offer every image. In fact, I can see it as an additional marketing point. Most photographers only give you the images they think are good. Hire me, and you also get all the images so you have more memories of your special day!

Click to expand...

You must be extraordinarily gifted that every one of your images comes out perfect. Kudos to you, then.

Mark B. said:

Member said:

...

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Member said:

I am not suggesting that every wedding photographer always give every image. I am suggesting that it is not a crazy thing to offer every image. In fact, I can see it as an additional marketing point. Most photographers only give you the images they think are good. Hire me, and you also get all the images so you have more memories of your special day!

Click to expand...

You must be extraordinarily gifted that every one of your images comes out perfect. Kudos to you, then.

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The question is not whether every image is perfect, but whether the imperfect images have value to the customer.

Do you imagine that your wedding clients limit themselves to the images you deliver, and don't accept amateur quality images from their friends? Your good images may be the ones that make it into the formal album, but I suspect they also enjoy the imperfect images they get from friends.

Again, it boils down to your choice of business model. In some cases it does make sense to offer all images, or even camera RAW images to clients. In other cases it makes sense to never offer a digital file, and to only offer prints and albums. Today's typical photographer chooses a model somewhere in the middle.

sledzik102 said:

I am wedding photographer with 5 years experience and over 100 weddings.

Client asking me for ALL raw files.

Click to expand...

Why?

This question has to be the start of a conversation with the client that leads to the answer to...

sledzik102 said:

Would you give it or if not how would you explain it.

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So, why does the client want the RAW files?

BAK said:

A photographer delivers 2,000 pictures to a client.

The client spends 10 seconds looking at each picture.

That's not very long to look at a well composed image or creatively posed people on a very special day. But lets use 10 seconds as an average, allowing 20 seconds for some shots and 5 seconds for some others.

2,000 pictures at 10 seconds each takes 20,000 seconds.

Divide 20,000 by 60 seconds, allow a little extra time to look at the best shots, and we learn it takes about 360 minutes to look at the 2,000 images for 10 seconds each.

360 minutes is six hours.

I think supplying a client with pictures that takes the client six hours to look at means that the photographer is just plain lazy and untalented and unable to do the job of making a photographic remembrance of a wedding.

Unless my math is wrong.

Can someone double check for me, please?

BAK

Click to expand...

This is exactly the kind of math I go through about every 10th bridal client who expresses concern about the number of pictures she'll get.

BAK said:

A photographer delivers 2,000 pictures to a client.

The client spends 10 seconds looking at each picture.

That's not very long to look at a well composed image or creatively posed people on a very special day. But lets use 10 seconds as an average, allowing 20 seconds for some shots and 5 seconds for some others.

2,000 pictures at 10 seconds each takes 20,000 seconds.

Divide 20,000 by 60 seconds, allow a little extra time to look at the best shots, and we learn it takes about 360 minutes to look at the 2,000 images for 10 seconds each.

360 minutes is six hours.

I think supplying a client with pictures that takes the client six hours to look at means that the photographer is just plain lazy and untalented and unable to do the job of making a photographic remembrance of a wedding.

Unless my math is wrong.

Can someone double check for me, please?

BAK

Click to expand...

The flaw in your math is that you assume the client will actually look at every picture on all occasions.

Let's consider the typical scenario where you provide a your selection of good images, and these are used to select images for the album.

In addition to these images, the client also receives all 2,000 images. 20 years from now, when someone dies, they may not look at all 2,000 images, but they may jump straight to those of the recently deceased.

Apple's iPhoto is good at identifying the people in the images, so you search for people by looks. In 10 years, this will be a trivial task for a computer.

I Uncle Harry passes away, the bride might want to jump to the photos you shot of him making a speech. There may be one or two images good enough for inclusion in the album, but the bride may be thrilled with 10 images capturing various expressions of her favorite uncle.

.

My point is that there are situations where it makes sense to deliver all the images to the client.

.

Think back 10 years at the discussions of whether or not it was a good idea to give any digital files to a client. After all once you give a digital file you have lost control of the image. You no longer generate revenue from prints, and the client can edit the image.

Today, many photographers give out digital files, and the sky has not fallen. The business model has changed from making the profit in print sales, to making the profit on shooting.

One can make a very good case that supplying any digital file is a bad idea. For instance it makes your work look bad. A print made by a custom lab is better than a print from Walgreens. A high quality wedding album presents better than a template designed digital press printed book.

Yet, many photographers have survived.

It's all about your marketing. There is no one solution that is right for all photographers.

So the client takes the 2000 images and spends six hours just looking quickly at pictures, in order toget an idea of what there is to choose from.

Actually making the selection from 6000 choices is another twelve hours. Unless the bride's mother and best friend are gathered around the computer with her.

And then the groom keeps getting called over and asked his opinion.

Imagine cutting and pasting and opening windows and closing windows and checking sharpness, and backtracking and fast forwarding for 2000 photos.

If a photographer can't make a rough cut, the photographer should go back to repairing mufflers.

As for looking through 2000 digital photo files 20 years from now and finding a JPEG of some uncle in the background... never gonna happen.

But a good print may be removed from an album and given to the ad rep from the local paper to publish in the death notice.

BAK

BAK said:

So the client takes the 2000 images and spends six hours just looking quickly at pictures, in order toget an idea of what there is to choose from.

Actually making the selection from 6000 choices is another twelve hours. Unless the bride's mother and best friend are gathered around the computer with her.

And then the groom keeps getting called over and asked his opinion.

Imagine cutting and pasting and opening windows and closing windows and checking sharpness, and backtracking and fast forwarding for 2000 photos.

If a photographer can't make a rough cut, the photographer should go back to repairing mufflers.

As for looking through 2000 digital photo files 20 years from now and finding a JPEG of some uncle in the background... never gonna happen.

But a good print may be removed from an album and given to the ad rep from the local paper to publish in the death notice.

BAK

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Yes. I don't imagine it working the way you describe, but that doesn't mean there aren't other ways it might work.

I would expect the bride to select the album images from your selects.

I would expect the family to look at overviews of the full set, and to browse the ones that look interesting to them, or are of the events that do look interesting to them.

As to looking through 2,000 digital photos 20 years from now, and fining a JPEG of some uncle in the background, I expect that would take under a minute. I fully expect computers to get faster over the next two decades and for image recognition software to become much better. iPhoto already does a decent job of recognizing people. I expect that 20 years from now facial recognition software will be much better.

If computers continue to double in capability every two years, then they will be 1,000 times more powerful in 20 years.

Gato Amarillo said:

clager said:

Your Raw files is like a proof, a negative, a sort of prof of copyright the picture is yours! In any commercial photography, the law is: never ever part with your raw-file or negative.

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Never unless the price is right. Many commercial photographer do in fact deliver raw files for clients that wish to do their own post production work or who plan extensive modifications to the images. One case that comes to mind is when the photo is to be inserted into a computer graphics piece.

Of course you still have your own copy - unless you agree to erase them.

Gato

--
"We paint with our brain, not with our hands" -- Michelangelo
Portrait, figure and fantasy photography at Silver Mirage Gallery:
silvermirage.com

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Sure! if the price is right! two months back I sold 8 raw-files to Exxon-mobile, for the price of 34000 dollars!!

How often do you think that happens?

I am a commercial photographer. I do not part with my raw-files, unless its something extraordinary, something that will spell money, then they can have them.

Selling your copyright is what its all about.

All this aside. Nowadays its tough to make a living as a freelance, better get it while you can.

clager said:

Gato Amarillo said:

clager said:

Your Raw files is like a proof, a negative, a sort of prof of copyright the picture is yours! In any commercial photography, the law is: never ever part with your raw-file or negative.

Click to expand...

Never unless the price is right. Many commercial photographer do in fact deliver raw files for clients that wish to do their own post production work or who plan extensive modifications to the images. One case that comes to mind is when the photo is to be inserted into a computer graphics piece.

Of course you still have your own copy - unless you agree to erase them.

Gato

--
"We paint with our brain, not with our hands" -- Michelangelo
Portrait, figure and fantasy photography at Silver Mirage Gallery:
silvermirage.com

Click to expand...

Sure! if the price is right! two months back I sold 8 raw-files to Exxon-mobile, for the price of 34000 dollars!!

How often do you think that happens?

I am a commercial photographer. I do not part with my raw-files, unless its something extraordinary, something that will spell money, then they can have them.

Selling your copyright is what its all about.

All this aside. Nowadays its tough to make a living as a freelance, better get it while you can.

Click to expand...

Can I ask, when you recall the time when Exxon bought your 8 raw files for $34,000, what is the first thing that springs to your mind?...

a) Yay, I sold 8 RAW files for $4,250 per imge

or

b) Woah, I got paid $34,000 for 1/2/3 (however many days it took you) days work?

RhysM said:

Can I ask, when you recall the time when Exxon bought your 8 raw files for $34,000, what is the first thing that springs to your mind?...

a) Yay, I sold 8 RAW files for $4,250 per imge

or

b) Woah, I got paid $34,000 for 1/2/3 (however many days it took you) days work?

Click to expand...

...or C) ...I'm glad I've educated myself enough to properly handle negotiations to maximize my income potential...

sledzik102 said:

I am wedding photographer with 5 years experience and over 100 weddings.

Client asking me for ALL raw files.

Would you give it or if not how would you explain it.

It is not in the contract. Between two photographers we shot 4000 images and client got 1400 JPEGs.

Click to expand...

My verbiage on all contracts goes something like the below. I also set up my daughter's successful wedding business the same way. It may sound a little strong, but it really helps after the fact in some rare cases. This is also at the bottom of the signed shot list. The top part is fairly short and just itemizes what the product is and how many images will be the minimum provided. It might also include engagement, pre-wedding bride and possibly groom as well as reception. It can include options like a wedding selfies sofa. It also includes maximum hours. Other types of events vary, of course.

I would never consider providing 1400 or 4000 images in the delivered wedding book. I think when you market yourself as one of those "Wedding on a CD" for $999 photographers, you make it hard to move that reputation up at a later date.

Here's the verbiage (and it can vary):

We provide a finished product, not a work in progress. That product is based on a signed shot list, plus any additional images we choose to add to that product prior to delivery. We provide that product on a printed medium and will provide, on request, those images in electronic format. Additional images which we may have captured but are not part of the final delivered product may become available for purchase in print format only for up to 90 days on our Website. Additional copies of the delivered wedding product may also be purchased from the Website or by phone in print or electronic format. After 90 days, the Wedding product may be available by request.

All images which might have been captured but which we have decided are inappropriate or of poor quality have been culled and deleted from our systems. These are not available at any time. All images made by the primary photographer, assistant or photography team are and will remain the intellectual property of the primary photographer who also holds copyright. Any infringement of this copyrighted material shall be vigorously prosecuted.

Primary Photographer ______________________X My Name and signature.

Client _______________________________X Their names and signatures.

--
Cheers, Craig
Follow me on Twitter @craighardingsr : Equipment in Profile - f/22 Club Member
I reserve the right to make mistakes in reasoning and logic as well as to change my mind anytime I wish. I also ask forbearance with respect to my typos. Please take a look at my gallery here at DPR.

The only time Ive ever given a client RAW files is when it was specified as part of my shooting contract for a local not-for-profit entity. Out of about 2,000 shots, they get around 300, and use them to create fantastic promotional art and posters and flyers for the next year's event. They give me full credit on everything they produce. So if the terms are good and mutually agreeable, yes. But that's rare. I had a model ask me for RAW files once, and I declined. Never saw her again, which was good because she was a PITA