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The Mirrorless vs SLR decision. Opinions wanted!!!

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PDAF is generally an "open loop" process where the processor tells the lens to focus to such and such a point without rechecking the focus. it leads to front or back focus. Cameras that are basically CDAF may work both sensors to "close the loop" and check focus near final focus - I'm not at all sure about that. Although, I do know my Sony SLT-A57 achieved perfect focus with two lenses I had.

The ultimate test for that is to manually focus as well as possible, and then take the same scene with AF.
 
Has anyone noticed that the OP has not responded to a single post?
 
AlbertInFrance said:
pavi1 said:
AlbertInFrance said:
pavi1 said:
AlbertInFrance said:
pavi1 said:
the Decoy said:
I'd like to switch to a smaller, lighter camera but I'm concerned that the xt1 won't allow me the creative freedom that I get with the 7d.
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Creative freedom is not a camera attribute, it is a photographer attribute.
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I beg to differ. Creativity is a photographer attribute. However if I have an image in my head that can be realised using one camera but not by another then the less able (in this context) camera limits my creative freedom.

If van Gogh had only water colours at his disposal he would not have been able to what he did with oils. Maybe he could have done something equally good, but it would have been different and therefore it would have limited his creative freedom.
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That is a ridiculous comparison.
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Pray explain why
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The difference in quality of capture between any of the current DSLR cameras and the current mirror less cameras is nil. Speed is about the only measurable difference that matters and that only matters to action photographers.
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Have you looked at the flash system options in the Canon and Nikon ecosystems, compared to Fuji? Actually yes. I use both my Nikon SB-800s and my studio strobe with both my Nikon and my Fuji.

Have you tried shooting serious macro with a Fuji and its native lenses?
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Dont have an interchangeable lens Fuji but I would bet it is possible.
AlbertTheLazy said:
What is the longest lens currently available for the X-T1?
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Has nothing to do with creative freedom.

 
How could he get a word in edge-wise ? ? ? ? ?

IF you're still reading this, as you see, you can over-think it.

If you have several Canon lenses leftover after the Canon body, another Canon would be practical.

But you know, it's not life and death. Buy what you want. You can always buy the other one later if you realize you got it wrong.

Life is short, Enjoy !
 
Also, you may be compromising some AF responsiveness on the XT1 vs. a Canon 7D. If you want smaller and lighter, your best bets are a Sony A6000 with a small prime setup or m43's. Today's m43's sensors are actually quite competitive with Canon's APS-C in terms of IQ and their handling/lens selection are great.

Just try all these cameras out first. See if one sticks.
 
the Decoy said:
Hi camera lovers. I recently decimated my 7d (I won't go into the whole story of my stupidity). Anyways I'm looking to purchase a replacement - and I'm getting quite a few photographers (pro's and hobbyists) advising me to look into a mirror less camera. I've researched and decided that, were I to go that way, I like the fujifilm x-t1.

So it's either the new 7d mkii or the xt1 - I'd like to switch to a smaller, lighter camera but I'm concerned that the xt1 won't allow me the creative freedom that I get with the 7d.

Amy thoughts or opinions on either of these cameras? They both score quite well in the review.

Cheers
Click to expand...
Me personally I would take the 7DII. Put it this way, if both cameras were in front of me and a sign said "take one" I'd take the 7DII. But I that is not because I think any less of the X-T1.
 
pavi1 said:
AlbertInFrance said:
pavi1 said:
AlbertInFrance said:
pavi1 said:
AlbertInFrance said:
pavi1 said:
the Decoy said:
I'd like to switch to a smaller, lighter camera but I'm concerned that the xt1 won't allow me the creative freedom that I get with the 7d.
Click to expand...
Creative freedom is not a camera attribute, it is a photographer attribute.
Click to expand...
I beg to differ. Creativity is a photographer attribute. However if I have an image in my head that can be realised using one camera but not by another then the less able (in this context) camera limits my creative freedom.

If van Gogh had only water colours at his disposal he would not have been able to what he did with oils. Maybe he could have done something equally good, but it would have been different and therefore it would have limited his creative freedom.
Click to expand...
That is a ridiculous comparison.
Click to expand...
Pray explain why
Click to expand...
The difference in quality of capture between any of the current DSLR cameras and the current mirror less cameras is nil. Speed is about the only measurable difference that matters and that only matters to action photographers.
Click to expand...
Have you looked at the flash system options in the Canon and Nikon ecosystems, compared to Fuji? Actually yes. I use both my Nikon SB-800s and my studio strobe with both my Nikon and my Fuji.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
So you can use multiple speedlights in TTL with your Fuji? Many pros see this as the main impediment to switching.
pavi1 said:
pavi1 said:
Have you tried shooting serious macro with a Fuji and its native lenses?
Click to expand...
Dont have an interchangeable lens Fuji
Click to expand...
Ahah!
pavi1 said:
but I would bet it is possible.
Click to expand...
If you faff around, as I do when shooting ants. The only 'macro' lens in the Fuji line-up only reaches 50% mag unassisted.
pavi1 said:
pavi1 said:
What is the longest lens currently available for the X-T1?
Click to expand...
Has nothing to do with creative freedom.
Click to expand...
Plenty. Quite often I do shots using my 300mm (non-Fuji) to realise an idea that I couldn't do using shorter lenses.

Every camera ever made has certain limitations. They matter to some people but not to others.
 
GeraldW said:
PDAF is generally an "open loop" process where the processor tells the lens to focus to such and such a point without rechecking the focus. it leads to front or back focus.
Click to expand...
<pedantic> Can lead to front or back focus. </pedantic> :-)

As far as I can see, there are two possible causes of front/back focus.

The one you hear most about is that SLRs use a separate light path to an off-sensor array to measure the phase difference. If that light path is incorrectly adjusted then it reads incorrectly and you get front/back focus. This cause is removed with on-sensor PDAF.

However, you can also have an issue where camera 'knows' where the lens should be focused, but for some electro-mechanical reason the focusing mechanism doesn't move the optics correctly. I'd guess that this would be relatively rare, it's possible. This cause could, of course, affect a camera with on-sensor PDAF.
GeraldW said:
Cameras that are basically CDAF may work both sensors to "close the loop" and check focus near final focus - I'm not at all sure about that. Although, I do know my Sony SLT-A57 achieved perfect focus with two lenses I had.

The ultimate test for that is to manually focus as well as possible, and then take the same scene with AF.

--
Jerry
Click to expand...
--
Albert
Every photograph is an abstraction from reality.
Most people are more interested in the picture than the image.
 
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AlbertInFrance said:
GeraldW said:
PDAF is generally an "open loop" process where the processor tells the lens to focus to such and such a point without rechecking the focus. it leads to front or back focus.
Click to expand...
<pedantic> Can lead to front or back focus. </pedantic> :-)

As far as I can see, there are two possible causes of front/back focus.

The one you hear most about is that SLRs use a separate light path to an off-sensor array to measure the phase difference. If that light path is incorrectly adjusted then it reads incorrectly and you get front/back focus. This cause is removed with on-sensor PDAF.

However, you can also have an issue where camera 'knows' where the lens should be focused, but for some electro-mechanical reason the focusing mechanism doesn't move the optics correctly. I'd guess that this would be relatively rare, it's possible. This cause could, of course, affect a camera with on-sensor PDAF.
AlbertTheLazy said:
Cameras that are basically CDAF may work both sensors to "close the loop" and check focus near final focus - I'm not at all sure about that. Although, I do know my Sony SLT-A57 achieved perfect focus with two lenses I had.

The ultimate test for that is to manually focus as well as possible, and then take the same scene with AF.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I see it's been 3 days since the thread was first posted, and the OP hasn't shown up since then. I had some questions to the OP - mainly, what they want to shoot - but I guess I'll just chime in with general opinion instead.

When comparing the Fujifilm X-T1 against the Canon EOS 7D Mark II, and that specific comparison alone, not a general mirrorless system camera vs DSLR, there are two setbacks to the X-T1 that are pretty much the main selling points for the 7D Mark II:
  • Autofocus: While I'm sure the X-T1 is excellent at locking autofocus, there's no way it's as good as the 7D Mark II for continuous, tracking autofocus of moving subjects, especially ones that move unpredictably.
  • Durability: The X-T1 is labeled as a weather resistant camera when combined with such lens, like the 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 or the 50-140mm f/2.8 - the latter is currently in pre-order stage. The 7D Mark II takes it some steps forwards - I've read somewhere that Canon claims the only camera on their current lineup that's more rugged than the 7D Mark II, is the $6,799 EOS-1D X. Roger Cicala is pretty fond of its build (http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/11/cracking-open-the-7d-ii), which is quite rare.
Both qualities aren't needed by the vast majority of photographers on most occasions. I seldom need the former, and rarely the latter, though for continuous autofocus I do sometimes lose potentially good shots due to poor tracking on the camera's part - technique is starting to compensate for that.

On pretty much any other level, one can say the X-T1 and 7D Mark II are evenly matched, or at least close enough that some quality time with the camera will make up for any flaw. So at the end of the day, it comes down to ergonomics and the availability of specific lenses one may need.
 
Mirrorless is where the world is heading -- no question. I began photography just after the last of the 5x7 Graflexes with the wind-up mirror was consigned to the museum.

I used a bunch of 6x6 asnd 35mm cameras.

Now I am in digital, I am using m43 for results that are better than 35mm film ever delivered. My current gear used both professionally and personally is a G6 camera with four lenses ranging from 9-18mm (18-36 FF equiv) to 100-300 (200-600 FF equiv). The whole outfit weighs a couple of kilograms, I can take it everywhere, and I can work with it all day in the tropical heat and humidity.

The point of a smaller outfit? The camera you have in your hand is the best camera for whatever is in front of you. If the camera is not in your hand -- and that would be the case with a heavier outfit like an FF or even a crop DSLR -- then there is no picture.

Check the photo albums in my blog below for some more examples of what I shoot.







Cheers, geoff

--
Geoffrey Heard
Down and out in Rabaul in the South Pacific
http://rabaulpng.com/we-are-all-traveling-throug/i-waited-51-years-for-tavur.html
 
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Hen3ry said:
Mirrorless is where the world is heading -- no question. I began photography just after the last of the 5x7 Graflexes with the wind-up mirror was consigned to the museum.

I used a bunch of 6x6 asnd 35mm cameras.

Now I am in digital, I am using m43 for results that are better than 35mm film ever delivered. My current gear used both professionally and personally is a G6 camera with four lenses ranging from 9-18mm (18-36 FF equiv) to 100-300 (200-600 FF equiv). The whole outfit weighs a couple of kilograms, I can take it everywhere, and I can work with it all day in the tropical heat and humidity.

The point of a smaller outfit? The camera you have in your hand is the best camera for whatever is in front of you. If the camera is not in your hand -- and that would be the case with a heavier outfit like an FF or even a crop DSLR -- then there is no picture.

Check the photo albums in my blog below for some more examples of what I shoot.







Cheers, geoff

--
Geoffrey Heard
Down and out in Rabaul in the South Pacific
http://rabaulpng.com/we-are-all-traveling-throug/i-waited-51-years-for-tavur.html
Click to expand...


Last year 4 (or was it 5?) of the 10 best Challenge winners were taken by M43 cameras. This proves that these cameras are holding anyone back and re more than good enough for what almost anyone needs. In fact, cameras like the E-M5 and E-M1 offer some advantages that other cameras do not have such as 5-axis IS and Live Composite (google it, it is amazing). Of course Panasonic M43 cameras are the ONLY ILC (DSLR or mirrorless) cameras to offer 4K video without $2000 add-ons.
 
M43 cameras are neither small enough nor good enough compared to other alternatives. Compact cameras that fit in your pocket are close to M43 in performance and the APS-C compacts beat M43 cameras in performance. For just a little more size APS-C and full frame DSLRs beat M43 in both image quality and low light performance. M43 is a curiosity of history where the second tier players that couldn't compete with the camera business leaders had to come up with something different. Unfortunately, M43 differentiation is only being different, but not the best at anything.

As time passes M43 will be relegated to the second string on the bench with some manufacturers either consolidated or out of business. While M43 is popular in Asia, that won't save them as the Asian economies are slowing down. The Japanese camera manufacturers will come under increasing pressure due to the great devaluation of their currency and the economic problems in front of the country. This will just hasten the demise of the M43 companies as cell phones squeeze from the bottom. Nikon and Canon will survive due to their professional lines and the large market shares that they enjoy. You can bet that both Nikon and Canon will bring out mirrorless at the point where they think that the market would reward this offering with respect to their DSLR business. Your lens investments are safest with Nikon, Canon and Sony.

Sony is the best current mirrorless choice as their APS-C and FF sensor formats outperform M43 cameras. Sony makes the best sensors and is improving their lens offerings. If you want an EVF Sony would have to be at the top of the list.
 
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Greg A A said:
M43 cameras are neither small enough nor good enough...
Click to expand...
Since we see nothing your gallery, look at the "Challenge of Challenges" winners from here at DPReview, and we can quickly agree you are wrong.

Check out the top pictures and see how many were taken with M43 cameras.

http://www.dpreview.com/contests/challenge-of-challenges-2013

It is always interesting to see those who really know nothing about what it takes to take great pictures. Next we see people quoting DxO "overall scores" and remaining clueless to all the other more important things that go into making great photography.
 
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Lab D said:
Greg A A said:
M43 cameras are neither small enough nor good enough...
Click to expand...
Since we see nothing your gallery close to the "Challenge of Challenges" winners from here at DPReview, we can quickly agree you are wrong.

Check top picture and see how many were taken with M43 cameras.

http://www.dpreview.com/contests/challenge-of-challenges-2013
Click to expand...
Who cares about DPreview challenges? DPreview challenge doesn't rank in importance to the world of photography; both amateur and professional. Correlation doesn't imply causation. This is one of the most common mistakes made in an attempted analysis.

This could mean that the Dpreview site has lots of M43 fans competing in the challenges or that there is some other quirk in the distribution. Your logic is faulty and you are blinded by your M43 fanaticism. Your inference is that if you have an M43 camera you are more likely to win photo contests, which is absolutely false. To say that is a proof is statement of ignorance.
 
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Sure Greg. Let me know when these vaporware systems appear so I can "upgrade" to them.

Nice post. I've seen very similar for iPods, iPads, etc. Typical FUD.
 
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Hen3ry said:
Mirrorless is where the world is heading -- no question. [...]

Now I am in digital, I am using m43 for results that are better than 35mm film ever delivered. My current gear used both professionally and personally is a G6 camera with four lenses ranging from 9-18mm (18-36 FF equiv) to 100-300 (200-600 FF equiv). The whole outfit weighs a couple of kilograms, I can take it everywhere, and I can work with it all day in the tropical heat and humidity.
Click to expand...
For once I am going to have to disagree with you, Geoff. A "couple of kilograms" is not light.

A D610, a 20mm f/1.8 and a 50mm f/1.8 is not much over 1kg. If you are really willing to carry 2kg you can add a 70-200 f/4.
 
Sante Patate said:
Hen3ry said:
Mirrorless is where the world is heading -- no question. [...]

Now I am in digital, I am using m43 for results that are better than 35mm film ever delivered. My current gear used both professionally and personally is a G6 camera with four lenses ranging from 9-18mm (18-36 FF equiv) to 100-300 (200-600 FF equiv). The whole outfit weighs a couple of kilograms, I can take it everywhere, and I can work with it all day in the tropical heat and humidity.
Click to expand...
For once I am going to have to disagree with you, Geoff. A "couple of kilograms" is not light.

A D610, a 20mm f/1.8 and a 50mm f/1.8 is not much over 1kg. If you are really willing to carry 2kg you can add a 70-200 f/4.
Click to expand...
And what are you planning to do for the rest of the focal lengths?
 
Martin.au said:
Sure Greg. Let me know when these vaporware systems appear so I can "upgrade" to them.
Click to expand...
There's no need for vaporware. If you want mirrorless today the best performing camera is Sony. If you want the best DSLRs go Nikon, Canon and Pentax.

Nikon and Canon have developing mirrorless technology in models than aren't directly competing with their high profit DSLR lines. The small sensor Nikon 1 has provided a development path for impressive CDAF capability that could be employed in a larger format when it suits their business model. Canon long ago learned from a difficult experience that lens compatibility was very important to their customers. Nikon has maintained excellent lens compatibility over decades. When the time comes for a technology change the safest place to be is with Nikon or Canon glass.
 
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