70D, Auto ISO, Tv or Av Mode and Exposure Compensation

R2D2 · Nov 16, 2014

Myer said:
Any comments or suggestions?

I'd say simplify.

Here is how I shoot birds day in and day out...

* Manual Exposure mode. Expose for your subject and it doesn't matter one whit what happens to the background. If the light on your subject changes (say from sunlit to shaded), just spin the shutter speed dial to compensate (count the clicks). This can be done very quickly without looking.

* I use center-weighted metering as it's the most predictable and consistent.

* I too usually start at ISO 400, and grudgingly go up from there as light conditions dictate.

* Shutter speed is king, so I'm always shooting wide open (fortunately my lenses are up to the task). Test yours to see if there's a sweet spot.

* For BIFs, a shutter speed of 1/2500 - 1/3200 sec is ideal (so shoot in good light whenever possible). No advantage to using higher shutters speeds than this. Decrease your ISO instead.

* Shutter speeds lower than this are possible (heck I've shot BIFs down to 1/100 sec @ 400mm), but your keeper rate will drop drastically the lower you go.

* I use Back Button AF and AI Servo for all of my shooting. Very versatile.

* Prefocus to a distance near where you expect your subject to be (this speeds up AF acquisition).

* I also use a single AF point for everything (incl BIFs). This'll keep the camera from focusing on near and far wingtips, and on backgrounds. Aim for the eyes. Your keeper rate improves as your tracking improves.

* No image stabilization for BIFs. It will only fight you. Work on your tracking instead.

* I keep "AF Search" off. I've found that this improves AF consistency during bursts.

* For BIFs, on my 70D I keep "Tracking sensitivity" halfway between the center and "Locked on."

* "Accel/decel" at 0.

* "First Image" and "Second Image" priority at the center. (I've tried other settings, but these are working the best for me)

Probably the biggest adjustment for you would be switching to Manual Exposure mode. If that's the case, set the camera to Aperture Priority (it'll always set the highest shutter speed possible). Adjust your ISO higher if blur becomes an issue.

Good luck to you. BIFs are both a challenge and a joy. (Samples in my galleries). I note what equipment was used, and EXIF is intact...

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/the_birds

R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.
http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries

MarshallG · Nov 16, 2014

Myer said:
My plan for next time is as follows:

Tv Mode

Shutter Speed 1/800 for grounded and 1/1000 - 1/1600 sec for flying.

Aperture as determine by the 70D body

ISO Auto with minimum set to ISO 400 (too bad I cannot select 640 so I might use 800 in dimmer light). In most cases I assume the aperture will not be wide open.

Any comments or suggestions?

TV makes more sense to me than AutoISO with Manual exposure.

There isn't as much exposure variation as you think. The ambient light hitting the birds probably isn't changing, unless it's sunrise/sunset. You could set the exposure for whatever light is hitting the birds, and dial that in as a manual exposure (shutter/aperture/ISO).

But using Tv might be better for you. Just remember, you're exposing your subject, not the bright/dark light behind it.

BAK · Nov 16, 2014

You talk about the birds being grounded, and the birds flying.

When they are flying, what is in the background? Sky? Trees with sun shining on them? Trees with shade?

Same questions when the birds are "grounded" (which I assume includes birds on branches so there can be sky in the background)

How is the light falling on the birds? Sunshine on the side of the birds that's facing the camera?

Is the light falling on the birds the same as the light falling on the background?

How much of the frame does the bird / do the birds plural take up, because this matters when you use evaluative metering?

THE HEART OF EVERYTHING is determining what part of the content of the frame do you want "properly exposed." Depending on the light and the location, it may be possible to get everything exposed properly, remembering it is up to you to decide what "properly exposed" means."

Imagine a photographer in Texas goes down to the prison on a sunny day, to take a picture of his grandmother when she gets released.

And she's got on her Stetson.

So when she comes through the gate and is standing there in the sun, does the overall prison gate and grandma's party dress, all in the sunshine, take precedence over her smiling face, which is buried in the dark under the brim of her hat?

Birds are like air shows. If it is sunny out, the bottom of the birds and the bottom of the planes is usually in shadow, but evaluative / matrix metering will measure the bright sky, too And as the birds of planes get closer or farther away, the meter will see less and then more bright sky, and change your exposure.

BAK

Myer · Nov 16, 2014

BAK said:
You talk about the birds being grounded, and the birds flying.

When they are flying, what is in the background? Sky? Trees with sun shining on them? Trees with shade?

Same questions when the birds are "grounded" (which I assume includes birds on branches so there can be sky in the background)

How is the light falling on the birds? Sunshine on the side of the birds that's facing the camera?

Is the light falling on the birds the same as the light falling on the background?

How much of the frame does the bird / do the birds plural take up, because this matters when you use evaluative metering?

THE HEART OF EVERYTHING is determining what part of the content of the frame do you want "properly exposed." Depending on the light and the location, it may be possible to get everything exposed properly, remembering it is up to you to decide what "properly exposed" means."

Imagine a photographer in Texas goes down to the prison on a sunny day, to take a picture of his grandmother when she gets released.

And she's got on her Stetson.

So when she comes through the gate and is standing there in the sun, does the overall prison gate and grandma's party dress, all in the sunshine, take precedence over her smiling face, which is buried in the dark under the brim of her hat?

Birds are like air shows. If it is sunny out, the bottom of the birds and the bottom of the planes is usually in shadow, but evaluative / matrix metering will measure the bright sky, too And as the birds of planes get closer or farther away, the meter will see less and then more bright sky, and change your exposure.

BAK

Birds on the ground are much easier to photograph than birds in flight.

On the ground you have a few seconds at least. You see the direction, background and light conditions. Making a one or two stop ISO adjustment isn't difficult.

Birds in flight are more difficult than an airshow. While some planes change direction they don't usually do it a quickly or as often as birds.

Once you pick up a bird and start tracking, your really not in a position to change setting and the background could easily change.

Myer · Nov 16, 2014

R2D2 said:
Myer said:

Any comments or suggestions?

Click to expand...

I'd say simplify.

Here is how I shoot birds day in and day out...

* Manual Exposure mode. Expose for your subject and it doesn't matter one whit what happens to the background. If the light on your subject changes (say from sunlit to shaded), just spin the shutter speed dial to compensate (count the clicks). This can be done very quickly without looking.

* I use center-weighted metering as it's the most predictable and consistent.

* I too usually start at ISO 400, and grudgingly go up from there as light conditions dictate.

* Shutter speed is king, so I'm always shooting wide open (fortunately my lenses are up to the task). Test yours to see if there's a sweet spot.

* For BIFs, a shutter speed of 1/2500 - 1/3200 sec is ideal (so shoot in good light whenever possible). No advantage to using higher shutters speeds than this. Decrease your ISO instead.

* Shutter speeds lower than this are possible (heck I've shot BIFs down to 1/100 sec @ 400mm), but your keeper rate will drop drastically the lower you go.

* I use Back Button AF and AI Servo for all of my shooting. Very versatile.

* Prefocus to a distance near where you expect your subject to be (this speeds up AF acquisition).

* I also use a single AF point for everything (incl BIFs). This'll keep the camera from focusing on near and far wingtips, and on backgrounds. Aim for the eyes. Your keeper rate improves as your tracking improves.

* No image stabilization for BIFs. It will only fight you. Work on your tracking instead.

* I keep "AF Search" off. I've found that this improves AF consistency during bursts.

* For BIFs, on my 70D I keep "Tracking sensitivity" halfway between the center and "Locked on."

* "Accel/decel" at 0.

* "First Image" and "Second Image" priority at the center. (I've tried other settings, but these are working the best for me)

Probably the biggest adjustment for you would be switching to Manual Exposure mode. If that's the case, set the camera to Aperture Priority (it'll always set the highest shutter speed possible). Adjust your ISO higher if blur becomes an issue.

Good luck to you. BIFs are both a challenge and a joy. (Samples in my galleries). I note what equipment was used, and EXIF is intact...

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/the_birds

R2

--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.
http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries

I usually use Tv Mode since I agree shutter speed is most important.

I just decided to try Auto ISO and see if I can do better.

I've used shutter speeds in the range of 1/2500 but the last few times I went out I used between 1/100 and 1/1600 sec.

I haven't used back button AF.

I do use AI-Servo but don't like it for grounded birds as it's too easy for the focus to stray and get picked up by something in the background.

For first & second image I use focus. Otherwise the camera will shoot without waiting for tracking to focus. Is this correct.

I do have to work on pre-focus. One of my friends has been reminding me.

I use IS Mode 2 for tracking. I'm getting older and not as steady as I used to be. If I don't use IS the viewfinder is too jumpy.

I've tried to use single point center focus (which I very much like for grounded birds) but I have a heck of a time picking them up and staying with them when they dart. Especially if the background is smooth (all blue or white) I have no trouble switching to 9 point center.

I've been using Accel / decal at 1. They dart too much.

All of my life I've shot in Tv mode. For me shutter speed is most important. Depending upon conditions aperture came next.

Now with digital, ISO becomes a variable.

Thanks for the comments.

Myer · Nov 16, 2014

MarshallG said:
Myer said:

My plan for next time is as follows:

Tv Mode

Shutter Speed 1/800 for grounded and 1/1000 - 1/1600 sec for flying.

Aperture as determine by the 70D body

ISO Auto with minimum set to ISO 400 (too bad I cannot select 640 so I might use 800 in dimmer light). In most cases I assume the aperture will not be wide open.

Any comments or suggestions?

Click to expand...

TV makes more sense to me than AutoISO with Manual exposure.

There isn't as much exposure variation as you think. The ambient light hitting the birds probably isn't changing, unless it's sunrise/sunset. You could set the exposure for whatever light is hitting the birds, and dial that in as a manual exposure (shutter/aperture/ISO).

But using Tv might be better for you. Just remember, you're exposing your subject, not the bright/dark light behind it.

I realize you're exposing you subject and not the background. But unless you're using spot metering (a able to stay directly on the subject - difficult when flying) the background affects the meter to a large degree. So EC becomes important.

Mark B. · Nov 16, 2014

Flying Fish said:
Yes, I agree; that's approximately why I use it. I still don't understand about EC in manual, though. I use EC often while shooting in Av mode.

FF

I agree - don't see the point of EC in manual. The meter is showing you where the exposure is; if you want EC one way or the other, simply change the shutter speed or aperture until you get the EC desired. If there were EC in manual mode, what parameter does it change? The whole point of manual mode is that I'M in control, and the camera isn't making any decisions.

Flying Fish · Nov 16, 2014

Matt: Thanks for your explanation, which does make sense to me. But I use manual when I want to set everything and I don't want the camera to change anything without my say-so. So in this shot, I had exposed for the owl, manually. When it flew from being in front of a light background to being in front of a dark background, the owl remained properly exposed. If ANYTHING had been allowed to vary, I don't think that would have been the case.

FF

Snowy owl, Assateague, MD

MarshallG · Nov 16, 2014

Myer said:
MarshallG said:

Myer said:

My plan for next time is as follows:

Tv Mode

Shutter Speed 1/800 for grounded and 1/1000 - 1/1600 sec for flying.

Aperture as determine by the 70D body

ISO Auto with minimum set to ISO 400 (too bad I cannot select 640 so I might use 800 in dimmer light). In most cases I assume the aperture will not be wide open.

Any comments or suggestions?

Click to expand...

TV makes more sense to me than AutoISO with Manual exposure.

There isn't as much exposure variation as you think. The ambient light hitting the birds probably isn't changing, unless it's sunrise/sunset. You could set the exposure for whatever light is hitting the birds, and dial that in as a manual exposure (shutter/aperture/ISO).

But using Tv might be better for you. Just remember, you're exposing your subject, not the bright/dark light behind it.

Click to expand...

I realize you're exposing you subject and not the background. But unless you're using spot metering (a able to stay directly on the subject - difficult when flying) the background affects the meter to a large degree. So EC becomes important.

You understand: The background does not matter. So you take a dozen shots, review them, check the histogram and the blinkies, whatever... now you know your exposure. Set it manually. Now you don't need to change it.

Myer · Nov 16, 2014

Mark B. said:
Flying Fish said:

Yes, I agree; that's approximately why I use it. I still don't understand about EC in manual, though. I use EC often while shooting in Av mode.

FF

Click to expand...

I agree - don't see the point of EC in manual. The meter is showing you where the exposure is; if you want EC one way or the other, simply change the shutter speed or aperture until you get the EC desired. If there were EC in manual mode, what parameter does it change? The whole point of manual mode is that I'M in control, and the camera isn't making any decisions.

This whole topic is about Manual Mode (only in that you can set shutter speed and aperture) and Auto ISO which injects some automation and removes some of the manual effect.

With that in mind EC becomes valuable since the camera is deciding on the ISO.

Maybe there should be another Mode: Select Shutter Speed, select Aperture and let the camera select ISO. Then it should become obvious that EC is valuable.

Flying Fish · Nov 16, 2014

To me, manual mode with auto ISO isn't really manual, and EC makes sense.

FF

Myer · Nov 16, 2014

MarshallG said:
MarshallG said:

MarshallG said:

Myer said:

My plan for next time is as follows:

Tv Mode

Shutter Speed 1/800 for grounded and 1/1000 - 1/1600 sec for flying.

Aperture as determine by the 70D body

ISO Auto with minimum set to ISO 400 (too bad I cannot select 640 so I might use 800 in dimmer light). In most cases I assume the aperture will not be wide open.

Any comments or suggestions?

Click to expand...

TV makes more sense to me than AutoISO with Manual exposure.

There isn't as much exposure variation as you think. The ambient light hitting the birds probably isn't changing, unless it's sunrise/sunset. You could set the exposure for whatever light is hitting the birds, and dial that in as a manual exposure (shutter/aperture/ISO).

But using Tv might be better for you. Just remember, you're exposing your subject, not the bright/dark light behind it.

Click to expand...

I realize you're exposing you subject and not the background. But unless you're using spot metering (a able to stay directly on the subject - difficult when flying) the background affects the meter to a large degree. So EC becomes important.

Click to expand...

You understand: The background does not matter. So you take a dozen shots, review them, check the histogram and the blinkies, whatever... now you know your exposure. Set it manually. Now you don't need to change it.

Picking up and tracking birds in flight changes quickly. It's not like scenery that doesn't move.

I want to fire when the bird is closest but the direction and angle will change drastically depending upon how much darting they do.

I don't want to waste 10 shots. Those might ne the best ones of the day.

Myer · Nov 16, 2014

Flying Fish said:
To me, manual mode with auto ISO isn't really manual, and EC makes sense.

FF

You are correct. It's not really manual mode.

That's why I was suggesting a new name.

In the olden days there were only 2 variables. ASO of film was determined when you bought it and put it in the camera.

We just say that manually setting shutter speed and aperture is manual mode.

But with Auto ISO we need a new name.

Mark B. · Nov 16, 2014

Myer said:
Mark B. said:

Flying Fish said:

Yes, I agree; that's approximately why I use it. I still don't understand about EC in manual, though. I use EC often while shooting in Av mode.

FF

Click to expand...

I agree - don't see the point of EC in manual. The meter is showing you where the exposure is; if you want EC one way or the other, simply change the shutter speed or aperture until you get the EC desired. If there were EC in manual mode, what parameter does it change? The whole point of manual mode is that I'M in control, and the camera isn't making any decisions.

Click to expand...

This whole topic is about Manual Mode (only in that you can set shutter speed and aperture) and Auto ISO which injects some automation and removes some of the manual effect.

With that in mind EC becomes valuable since the camera is deciding on the ISO.

Maybe there should be another Mode: Select Shutter Speed, select Aperture and let the camera select ISO. Then it should become obvious that EC is valuable.

Then auto-ISO shouldn't be a valid choice when in manual mode; it is no longer manual.

ritholtznue · Nov 16, 2014

MarshallG said:
Matt said:

Lets say you lock in a shutter speed and aperture in M for whatever you are shooting but due to light and subject conditions, your subject comes out too dark because your background is too dominant bright, then you can simply use EC to force the camera to increase ISO and expose brighter.

At the same time you could just adjust one of the three parameter by hand but often and esp. in changing light M, auto ISO and EC will be easier and faster.

Click to expand...

Just set an ISO, then tap the ISO button and then turn the main dial, and it will change your ISO. It's not difficult to do while shooting, if you practice for 5 or 10 minutes.

Canon is a 2-dial system. In M, one dial is Aperture and the other is shutter. So there isn't an Exposure Comp dial available in M Mode anyway

, it turns off metering system on view finder.

Problem is, tapping ISO button switches off information in view finder and exposure scale. It is not like changing A or T where one can see changes same time in the view finder along with Exposure scale. One has to remember number clicks needed to move exposure to desired position with ISO button.

Steve Balcombe · Nov 16, 2014

Flying Fish said:
Matt: Thanks for your explanation, which does make sense to me. But I use manual when I want to set everything and I don't want the camera to change anything without my say-so. So in this shot, I had exposed for the owl, manually. When it flew from being in front of a light background to being in front of a dark background, the owl remained properly exposed. If ANYTHING had been allowed to vary, I don't think that would have been the case.

FF

Snowy owl, Assateague, MD

I totally agree, *in that particular case*. That is a classic use of manual exposure (and a great shot too). It's done to fix the amount of light reaching the sensor in situations where an Auto mode wouldn't be as reliable.

But Auto ISO gives us another reason to use a fixed aperture and shutter speed - to fix both depth of field and motion blur while still allowing the camera to vary the exposure as lighting conditions change. This becomes just another Auto mode and exposure compensation is not just useful but essential. As somebody said in another post, that's no longer Manual, but we don't have another name for it. I've seen TAv suggested, which works for me.

--

Steve Balcombe

Explore Steve Balcombe’s 4,307 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

rbebbin2 · Nov 16, 2014

I never thought of doing this so thanks for all the posts to date. I must give this a try.

I was also thinking if you are concerned with EC due to backlighting why not use a different metering mode such as spot metering or is that not available?

Anyway another thing to try out.

Photography. Always learning

Matt105483 · Nov 16, 2014

Mark B. said:
Flying Fish said:

Yes, I agree; that's approximately why I use it. I still don't understand about EC in manual, though. I use EC often while shooting in Av mode.

FF

Click to expand...

I agree - don't see the point of EC in manual. The meter is showing you where the exposure is; if you want EC one way or the other, simply change the shutter speed or aperture until you get the EC desired. If there were EC in manual mode, what parameter does it change? The whole point of manual mode is that I'M in control, and the camera isn't making any decisions.

There is no point for M and EC in static or studio settings. For many other situations it makes lots of sense. it gives you flexibility when you want that and otherwise you dont use it

Myer · Nov 17, 2014

rbebbin2 said:
I never thought of doing this so thanks for all the posts to date. I must give this a try.

I was also thinking if you are concerned with EC due to backlighting why not use a different metering mode such as spot metering or is that not available?

Anyway another thing to try out.

Photography. Always learning

Yes, Spot Metering is available.

But it's not that easy to keep a flying, darting bird right in the center.

If I'm using 9 point center to track a bird it might be easier to use a different metering mode and add some EC for a brighter background.

vlab · Nov 17, 2014

Read the question: M+Auto Iso:

Valuable question:

You need Specific Aperture and Specific Shutter speed and for speed use Auto ISO, let the camera decide about Iso (you don't have time to watch the metter and keep adjusting ISO). The camera can be foolish and will choose wrong ISO.

70D, Auto ISO, Tv or Av Mode and Exposure Compensation

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