Who's got the fastest gun out there?

I can see how my first post could be misinterpreted. So I'll clarify, when I say I want a camera that can quickly choose a focus point, I mean a camera that allows you to quickly designate a particular focus point. The difference between cameras in this regard is drastic.
Manual focus is the fastest to focus both the camera (and the photographer) ... There is no faster, no possible system on earth that can select a focus point as fast as manual focus.
You might be right, but the GM1/GX7 is pretty damn fast. This is why I started the thread. I'd love to see this tested. I have a feeling the GM1 may end up getting a higher percentage of accurately focused shots faster than manual focus in many situations.
a quick glance at the dpreview reveals major issues with low-light AF with the GM1. Leaving aside pre-focus and a good manual focus system, common sense will tell u that a FF DSLR with BBF and a fast normal lens will be the "fastest". After that, we're talking about other factors.

And i can't see how selecting the point of focus using touch screen or otherwise can be useful on the street. Unless u have loads of time to setup. Street as most portray it is immediate. See/shoot. The moment is but a moment.

but anyway, pretty well any camera will work to some degree.
 
And i can't see how selecting the point of focus using touch screen or otherwise can be useful on the street. Unless u have loads of time to setup. Street as most portray it is immediate. See/shoot. The moment is but a moment.

http://blog.holdingsteady.com
That's exactly my point. With the GM1/GM5/GX7, you don't need loads of time to setup. It IS immediate. You can see/shoot at ANY point in the frame in an instant. I'm not sure if there is any camera that can do this as well.
 
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And i can't see how selecting the point of focus using touch screen or otherwise can be useful on the street. Unless u have loads of time to setup. Street as most portray it is immediate. See/shoot. The moment is but a moment.

http://blog.holdingsteady.com
That's exactly my point. With the GM1/GM5/GX7, you don't need loads of time to setup. It IS immediate. You can see/shoot at ANY point in the frame in an instant. I'm not sure if there is any camera that can do this as well.
Olympus via the touchscreen.
 
Thanks for the replies. Of course in reality, budget is a consideration, but I'd still like to know who's got the fastest gun, regardless of price. The top of the line Nikons/Canons are likely to be the top runners, which is why all the sports photographers use them. The Nikon V/J series have always intrigued me, many of the performance numbers really seem to blow away the competition.

There are some posts suggesting workarounds. They are helpful tips, but I don't mean a technique that allows you to insure decent focus. I mean a camera that quickly locks on accurate continuous focus. Another part of my criteria is a camera that allows you to quickly designate the focus point. If my subject is in the top left corner of my composition, I want to take the photo this way and get accurate focus. Focus and recompose will often work well; however, focus and recompose does not always work with moving subjects/continuous shooting.

In response to my own post, may I suggest the Panasonic GX7/GM1? I only have experience with the GM1, but the GX7 has all the same features and more. The reason I asked is, it's hard to imagine any camera being faster. If there is, I'd love to know.

I realize there are cameras with faster and more accurate continuous autofocus. But it seems like none of them have a touchscreen. I know there is a lot of snobbishness about touchscreens, but I think it's THAT powerful a tool. The touchscreen makes choosing a focus point near instantaneous. Maybe even faster. How is that possible? Once you get used to it, choosing a focus point happens in the course of moving the camera into position, it's set before the camera is in position. Coupled with fast, accurate autofocus, I think the GM1/GX7 will win shootouts in many situations.
That is very true for you, for me, and probably for a lot of open-minded people who haven't tried it yet. I will add that the tilt screen is very inconspicuous and emulates that venerable street shooter, the Rollieflex.

A couple of OT comments:

1. It's good to get advice but you seem to know more about this than many here; you certainly know your own needs better.

2. Street is all about recognizing the static elements that will make a good composition, then finding the decisive moments when the dynamic elements come into near-perfect juxtaposition. I'm sure that shooting in burst mode does not develop this skill, and strongly doubt it can replace it.
 
Thanks for the advice, I have to disagree with not burst shooting. When street shooting, you can anticipate a lot of things, but when no one is posing for you, there is no way you can anticipate how the facial expression is going to get frozen in a single shot. An otherwise great shot can have a facial expression that does not represent what happened at all. Even though the person is happy and smiling, a single frame can easily look angry, ugly, sad, twisted, etc.

If you shoot in bursts, you will always get the shot you would have gotten if you took a single shot. Often the first shot IS my best shot. But not always. There is absolutely no reason not to burst shoot. The only reason is to follow a "rule" cited by old school street photographers and repeated by those still trying to copy them. There is no reason to restrict yourself to the "rules" that their 50 year old equipment required.

For example, modern street shooters who use film. Yes, I can appreciate the joy that comes with the challenge of getting a great street film shot. Film also has pleasant aesthetic qualities. But, it becomes quite obvious that when using film, street shooters are often MISSING the moment they really wanted to catch. The same film shooters also often shoot digital, and it's obvious they have more success at catching the intended moments.

With my old Canon S100, RAW continuous shooting was a pathetic 1 shot per second. I managed to get good street shots, but there is no question I get more "decisive moments" with the GM1's faster burst shooting. No professional photographer that catches dynamic action (news, sports, unposed wedding photos, etc.) shoots single shots, because it would be silly to.
 
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Another reply to my own thread, I just read this from Camera labs: http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_A5100/

"The A5100 now enjoys ... the A6000's 179 embedded phase-detect AF points which allow that model to continuously focus with a high degree of success. This is a huge upgrade over the A5000, and indeed almost any system camera, mirrorless or DSLR. Where most cameras costing even twice the price of the A5100 can struggle with continuous AF, especially mirrorless models, Sony's embedded phase-detect array can track sports and action with ease."

And it's got a 180 touchscreen! Don't know why they didn't put it on the A6000, so I'm going to wait until they do. No, Sony this pattern of withholding features within various models is not working on me. I'm not buying one camera, then buying the next one when you add a feature (and remove another). Keep all the features of the A6000, give me a 180 touchscreen and you get a purchase. Do it fast, or your competitors are going to beat you to the punch again (i.e. RX100 vs Canon G7X - which only needs faster RAW continuous shooting to be the perfect pocket camera.)
 
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And i can't see how selecting the point of focus using touch screen or otherwise can be useful on the street. Unless u have loads of time to setup. Street as most portray it is immediate. See/shoot. The moment is but a moment.

http://blog.holdingsteady.com
That's exactly my point. With the GM1/GM5/GX7, you don't need loads of time to setup. It IS immediate. You can see/shoot at ANY point in the frame in an instant. I'm not sure if there is any camera that can do this as well.
Olympus via the touchscreen.
But if you're pressing/smudging a touch screen you're not pressing the shutter. So how's that quick?
 
And i can't see how selecting the point of focus using touch screen or otherwise can be useful on the street. Unless u have loads of time to setup. Street as most portray it is immediate. See/shoot. The moment is but a moment.

http://blog.holdingsteady.com
That's exactly my point. With the GM1/GM5/GX7, you don't need loads of time to setup. It IS immediate. You can see/shoot at ANY point in the frame in an instant. I'm not sure if there is any camera that can do this as well.
Olympus via the touchscreen.
But if you're pressing/smudging a touch screen you're not pressing the shutter. So how's that quick?
Put your finger on the point you want in focus. Camera focuses on that point and takes the shot.

There is an icon on the touchscreen which cycles through three options. Touch screen off (except for the icon), touch to focus (and then you can fire the shutter normally), and touch to shoot (where it sets focus point and fires the shutter).
 
Thanks for the advice, I have to disagree with not burst shooting. When street shooting, you can anticipate a lot of things, but when no one is posing for you, there is no way you can anticipate how the facial expression is going to get frozen in a single shot.
A fast intuition, even a normal social intuition and when someone is reacting to something a photographer is reacting at the same pace. If you miss a photo then you miss it and the regret also happens to be an energy to keep you alert. I would much rather get one good photograph than a burst of bad. Staying in the mood of the street photographer is hugely important too although many dont even know what that means. You say "there is no way you can anticipate how the facial expression is going to get frozen ...but thats exactly what a good street photographer does and its just social intuition and heightened by the 'street mood' that the photographer is in. I'll add that we do it because thats what we do, that if we burst mode that we wouldn't otherwise learn how to. Bursting away can also cause the concentration or mood to be broken and it can take some time to get it back, its something we might only do if we had lost concentration or were tired.
An otherwise great shot can have a facial expression that does not represent what happened at all. Even though the person is happy and smiling, a single frame can easily look angry, ugly, sad, twisted, etc.
That is just a small range in street and to be honest I don't know anyone else that photographs that way, we anticipate the moment before hand but during the actions of the scene we are watching for our moment. This is the game and the movement and expression ...are the photograph ...and are when the photograph is taken. If you are relying on burst then there is a problem with the photographer that needs to be examined, evaluating the photo is evaluating yourself and is part of improving and always improving. If the scene changes then you take another but you stay in control and you always evaluate yourself in relation to the photo you just took.
If you shoot in bursts, you will always get the shot you would have gotten if you took a single shot. Often the first shot IS my best shot. But not always. There is absolutely no reason not to burst shoot. The only reason is to follow a "rule" cited by old school street photographers and repeated by those still trying to copy them. There is no reason to restrict yourself to the "rules" that their 50 year old equipment required.

The only reason is to follow a "rule" cited by old school street photographers and repeated by those still trying to copy them.
Thats just a put down and makes no sense, who are you actually talking about? What do you mean old school?

I dont know what kind of photograph you take and I dont know what you mean by old school but this isnt true for many of us. The moment is at the time of the photograph, not before, not after. Also its a street photography where you dont know what you are taking a photo of ...when some of us are more deliberate. There is a reason that first shot is usually the one, I wonder if you know what it is ...?
You can burst away afterward, there are no rules and we all find our way I suppose but if there is an opportunity for another photo of the same scene some of us use that time to move our feet to stay ahead of the action as it sometimes continues to unfold. To be honest I cannot think of a single photo of mine that is from after something happened and only one where it is a scene of the same thing happening multiple times and I took them using single shots. If you are just bursting away at random than thats what your photos will be and the mood wont be there either, its will be sloppy and happy go lucky like shooting ducks with a machine gun.

Think about shooting ducks for a moment, imagine yourself with a sniper scope and the intensity of it in your mind ...now imagine yourself happygolucky with a machine gun, that difference is what you need to learn and then learn to maintain even when there are no ducks. There is more to learn than just pushing a button and it all involves the photographer and not the camera.

You can burst mode all you want but any beginners should take it as bad advice. It prevents you from being focused and means you are not properly connected to the scene. The luck in street is what comes to you, not what burst captures like a trawler. Of course burst can be used as one of the techniques but it should not be all of them and it should be used sparingly.
For example, modern street shooters who use film. Yes, I can appreciate the joy that comes with the challenge of getting a great street film shot. Film also has pleasant aesthetic qualities. But, it becomes quite obvious that when using film, street shooters are often MISSING the moment they really wanted to catch. The same film shooters also often shoot digital, and it's obvious they have more success at catching the intended moments.
Well thats just not true and for exactly the reasons above. If you are a burst style of photographer then you will suffer this but to say ...
it becomes quite obvious that when using film, street shooters are often MISSING the moment they really wanted to catch
is a load of bunkum and again its exactly why your burst advice is bad.

I shoot film as well and I shoot digital exactly the same way. I've never counted burst and volume as a benefit of digital but the internet seems to be buried in it. My camera is set at single shot because I need to be in control each time I deliberately press the shutter. You have to stay in control and when you don't and you get tired you take a break and then work your way into it again. In terms of technique I also use exposure lock on the shutter, its likely the most useful feature a camera can have for street.
With my old Canon S100, RAW continuous shooting was a pathetic 1 shot per second. I managed to get good street shots, but there is no question I get more "decisive moments" with the GM1's faster burst shooting. No professional photographer that catches dynamic action (news, sports, unposed wedding photos, etc.) shoots single shots, because it would be silly to.
They are not street photographers and its often proven when they try their hand at it. It also sounds like you have been doing these burst shots for a long time.

Seriously, you have gone from focus speed to burst when what you need to do is be sharp and intuitive. Street photography is nothing about the camera and I can only think of two features it must have, no shutter or focus lag but other than these the effort needs to be increasing the skill of the photographer not silly features on a camera. You call it old school as though these new compact cameras replaces the old photographer ...

It seems to me that you are trying to overcome the limitations of these compacts and that sounds bad for the photographer.

On an slr or rf we use Aperture and manual modes, iso (I dont use auto just as I also set one film speed per roll), exp comp, exposure lock and thats it. With manual lenses we use the aperture ring and the focus ring ....

With these compacts you seem to want features that make them usable but take you even further away from street photography.
 
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There is no faster, no possible system on earth that can select a focus point as fast as manual focus.
This is a statement that I can't believe was made. Have you used a DSLR with a central focus point? I could not physically focus manually faster even with my oldest DSLR faster than auto focus. It's instantaneous most times here - on any lens.

Lanidrac.
 
There is no faster, no possible system on earth that can select a focus point as fast as manual focus.
This is a statement that I can't believe was made. Have you used a DSLR with a central focus point? I could not physically focus manually faster even with my oldest DSLR faster than auto focus. It's instantaneous most times here - on any lens.

Lanidrac.
 
There is no faster, no possible system on earth that can select a focus point as fast as manual focus.
This is a statement that I can't believe was made. Have you used a DSLR with a central focus point? I could not physically focus manually faster even with my oldest DSLR faster than auto focus. It's instantaneous most times here - on any lens.

Lanidrac.
You guys are talking about two separate things. He's right, in that with manual focus, if you can see adequately the subject you want to focus on (not in the centre of the view) and nail it, then it will be faster than selecting that specific focus point on most DSLRs.

You're right, in that if you're using the central focus point, the DSLR will be faster.
Thanks, Martin.
 
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There is no faster, no possible system on earth that can select a focus point as fast as manual focus.
This is a statement that I can't believe was made. Have you used a DSLR with a central focus point? I could not physically focus manually faster even with my oldest DSLR faster than auto focus. It's instantaneous most times here - on any lens.
You know too that with manual focus you can select a point in space (nothing) and even de-focus. If you used manual focus you'd know why you might need to do this from time to time, if you only use af then you wont know because you cant do it. Shooting through things or thin reflections are a problem for af too, you just never know what you need to be able to do in street photography ...manual focus is controlled by the photographer, af by the camera, it might be obvious but there are things in it that are not. Even the time to focus is just one part of taking a street photo, that using a manual focus lens with an aperture ring makes some things faster.
 
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Nikon D4 with 70-200/F2.8 VRI, AF-C nine point AF. Half of these I was just managing to get the camera pointed in the right direction and praying as I hit the shutter since I wasn't familiar with the flow of a kickball game.

 
I'll just repeat again:

"if you shoot in bursts, you will always get the shot you would have gotten if you took a single shot. Often the first shot IS my best shot. But not always. There is absolutely no reason not to burst shoot."

You wrote a very long response, how about you just try it? How do you know that your single shot technique is yielding the best results? You've never seen a burst of your shots. Hard to talk about something meaningfully if you haven't tried it. If you find your first shot is always your best, then by all means, go back to single shots, it will save time, battery, and space on your memory card. But, if you find there are times when a later burst is better, you may want to consider bursting.

"I dont know what kind of photograph you take."

My Flickr page is on my profile. All of the following are unposed candid photos of strangers:






https://www.flickr.com/photos/chee917/14093344914/
 
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I'll just repeat again:

"if you shoot in bursts, you will always get the shot you would have gotten if you took a single shot. Often the first shot IS my best shot. But not always. There is absolutely no reason not to burst shoot."
I have to disagree with you. I have done a lot of shooting both in burst and single shot modes, each has its' appropriate uses. But shooting in burst mode will often mean you miss the shot you want, where single frame and good timing will catch it.

For reference, I am shooting on a D4, I can get up to 11fps and even shooting 14bit raw files I can shoot around 70 frames in a burst before I fill up the buffer. I think there is a new Canon out there that shoots a little faster, but not by much. I shoot mostly live circus and dance performances, and my initial thought was start a burst before a key moment in a routine and let the machine gun run. Sometimes I would get the moment I wanted, but not as often as I would think. It didn't occur to me until later to question why.

The key moment for me occurred when I was shooting an archery workshop and trying to catch arrows leaving the bow. I was shooting at 1/8000 of a second, 11FPS, prefocused on the bow with AF off, so I wasn't waiting on focus. When the archers drew, I would start to machine gun, and keep firing until the arrow was stuck in the target. When I reviewed the images, I wasn't getting the shot. I was getting pretty close, but not what I wanted. Although I couldn't figure it out at the time, I went back to single shot and did my best to fire the shutter as the archer was releasing, and I got a lot higher percentage of keeper shots.

I was kind of annoyed that my expensive machine gun wasn't getting what I wanted, and needed to understand why, so I did some quick math. Even though I was shooting 1/8000 second frames, 1 was only getting one frame every 1/11 of a second. I found out that for the bows the archers were using, the arrows were traveling at roughly 200 feet per second on a full draw release. So this meant that those arrows were moving roughly 18ft between each frame even at the highest speed I could shoot. So unless I managed to time the burst perfectly, the arrow could easily travel from the bow to outside of the frame in the space between the shots.

I took this back into my performance shooting. While my dancers and aerialists aren't moving quite as fast as the arrows were, for some of my more dynamic performers there will still be motion blur in the arms and feet at anything less than 1/500 of a second, so I found that if I wanted a particular moment of the dance as my image, I would get much better results timing a single shot to the flow of the dance than a burst, where I would frequently get two shots that perfectly sandwiched the moment I wanted, but missed it.

That being said, when I see a performer setting up for a roll or windmill sequence, or a dancer getting set for a spinning pass across the floor, where I want to catch a series of images and the precise moment isn't important, I'll machine gun in those situations.

Just like anything else in photography, single shot and burst modes are tools in the chest, each has its' appropriate uses and situations, it's up to the photographer to know which works best for them. I don't shoot street, but it seems to me that it is similar to dance enough that unless it's a slow moving scene, single shot is definitely a viable choice.
 
I'll just repeat again:

"if you shoot in bursts, you will always get the shot you would have gotten if you took a single shot. Often the first shot IS my best shot. But not always. There is absolutely no reason not to burst shoot."
I have to disagree with you. I have done a lot of shooting both in burst and single shot modes, each has its' appropriate uses. But shooting in burst mode will often mean you miss the shot you want, where single frame and good timing will catch it.
Well said, and I will second that with my experiences shooting dancers alongside other photographers in the studio.

I was shooting medium format with only a single shot at a time, while the other photographers were using full frame DSLR's in burst mode. They had to make several attempts, reviewing each time, not finding a shot they liked, and reshooting. I was a little mystified as to how my single shot timing was getting the dancer at the apex of her leaps and bounds on every shot, but the other photographers couldn't manage to do it. The perfect shot was in between the frames being captured in burst mode.
 
I'll just repeat again:

"if you shoot in bursts, you will always get the shot you would have gotten if you took a single shot. Often the first shot IS my best shot. But not always. There is absolutely no reason not to burst shoot."
I have to disagree with you. I have done a lot of shooting both in burst and single shot modes, each has its' appropriate uses. But shooting in burst mode will often mean you miss the shot you want, where single frame and good timing will catch it.
Well said, and I will second that with my experiences shooting dancers alongside other photographers in the studio.

I was shooting medium format with only a single shot at a time, while the other photographers were using full frame DSLR's in burst mode. They had to make several attempts, reviewing each time, not finding a shot they liked, and reshooting. I was a little mystified as to how my single shot timing was getting the dancer at the apex of her leaps and bounds on every shot, but the other photographers couldn't manage to do it. The perfect shot was in between the frames being captured in burst mode.
To fmian and Happy Dragon. Thanks for the replies, and thanks for providing examples based on real shooting experience.

For something as fast as an arrow, certainly my GM1's burst shooting would not be fast enough, I would have to time a single shot. But you're talking about something EXTREMELY fast. A human subject in street photography is not that fast.

As far as a dancer leaping, that's somewhat predictable. What goes up, must come down, in the middle is the apex. Since you have experience shooting dancers, you are probably also good at predicting the full body stretches of various movements. I can definitely see how single shots would work best. In street photography, human facial expressions are not as predictable.

So I agree with both of you that many situations will call for single shots. But as I'm sure you both already know, when you shoot a candid burst of someone's face, although they will often have the same general expression, from shot to shot that expression is different. Sometimes wildly different. There is no way to predict these nuances. You know they are about to break into a smile. You shoot. A burst will get a few variations of that smile, you can pick the best one. You can delete the one when they blinked.

For example: The first photo I linked.
Here's the 6 shot burst. http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/7902741997/photos/3067190/shelter-6-shot-burst

I'm not just holding the shutter down and walking around the city. I saw a moment coming, I'm timing shots. All 6 are different. I like all 6. There is no way you would have been able to decide for certain which was the single best moment to shoot a single shot. If you tried, you probably would have gotten one of the middle shots, "the kiss". I like the first and last one more. I ended up processing and uploading the last one. For candid shots of people, especially faces, I definitely recommend burst shooting.
 
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I'll just repeat again:

"if you shoot in bursts, you will always get the shot you would have gotten if you took a single shot. Often the first shot IS my best shot. But not always. There is absolutely no reason not to burst shoot."

You wrote a very long response, how about you just try it? How do you know that your single shot technique is yielding the best results? You've never seen a burst of your shots. Hard to talk about something meaningfully if you haven't tried it. If you find your first shot is always your best, then by all means, go back to single shots, it will save time, battery, and space on your memory card. But, if you find there are times when a later burst is better, you may want to consider bursting.

"I dont know what kind of photograph you take."

My Flickr page is on my profile. All of the following are unposed candid photos of strangers:






https://www.flickr.com/photos/chee917/14093344914/
These are pretty sweet, the last one I especially like. Its a nice style of candid that you do. Selectively taking each shot should make you more aware of timing and the rhythm of things. Bursting is taking photos without control, maybe it has to do with using compact cameras.

This is me
oneant
 
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I'll just repeat again:

"if you shoot in bursts, you will always get the shot you would have gotten if you took a single shot. Often the first shot IS my best shot. But not always. There is absolutely no reason not to burst shoot."
I have to disagree with you. I have done a lot of shooting both in burst and single shot modes, each has its' appropriate uses. But shooting in burst mode will often mean you miss the shot you want, where single frame and good timing will catch it.

For reference, I am shooting on a D4, I can get up to 11fps and even shooting 14bit raw files I can shoot around 70 frames in a burst before I fill up the buffer. I think there is a new Canon out there that shoots a little faster, but not by much. I shoot mostly live circus and dance performances, and my initial thought was start a burst before a key moment in a routine and let the machine gun run. Sometimes I would get the moment I wanted, but not as often as I would think. It didn't occur to me until later to question why.

The key moment for me occurred when I was shooting an archery workshop and trying to catch arrows leaving the bow. I was shooting at 1/8000 of a second, 11FPS, prefocused on the bow with AF off, so I wasn't waiting on focus. When the archers drew, I would start to machine gun, and keep firing until the arrow was stuck in the target. When I reviewed the images, I wasn't getting the shot. I was getting pretty close, but not what I wanted. Although I couldn't figure it out at the time, I went back to single shot and did my best to fire the shutter as the archer was releasing, and I got a lot higher percentage of keeper shots.

I was kind of annoyed that my expensive machine gun wasn't getting what I wanted, and needed to understand why, so I did some quick math. Even though I was shooting 1/8000 second frames, 1 was only getting one frame every 1/11 of a second. I found out that for the bows the archers were using, the arrows were traveling at roughly 200 feet per second on a full draw release. So this meant that those arrows were moving roughly 18ft between each frame even at the highest speed I could shoot. So unless I managed to time the burst perfectly, the arrow could easily travel from the bow to outside of the frame in the space between the shots.
This is a brilliant example, your other one of high pressure kickball and a long lens made we want a cigarette and I dont even smoke (grin). With the archers you likely even took your own breath at the same time they did.
I took this back into my performance shooting. While my dancers and aerialists aren't moving quite as fast as the arrows were, for some of my more dynamic performers there will still be motion blur in the arms and feet at anything less than 1/500 of a second, so I found that if I wanted a particular moment of the dance as my image, I would get much better results timing a single shot to the flow of the dance than a burst, where I would frequently get two shots that perfectly sandwiched the moment I wanted, but missed it.

That being said, when I see a performer setting up for a roll or windmill sequence, or a dancer getting set for a spinning pass across the floor, where I want to catch a series of images and the precise moment isn't important, I'll machine gun in those situations.

Just like anything else in photography, single shot and burst modes are tools in the chest, each has its' appropriate uses and situations, it's up to the photographer to know which works best for them. I don't shoot street, but it seems to me that it is similar to dance enough that unless it's a slow moving scene, single shot is definitely a viable choice.
lol ...its just like dance, terrific explanation.
 
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