Can Your Eyes "See" Photon Shot Noise ?

You see the shot noise, for one thing. You see not much detail, for another, you see not much colour (except in the shot noise).
That is almost certainly not 'shot noise'.

Far, far, more likely it is just dark/read noise (something entirely different to shot noise).
Care to elaborate on the nature and form of "dark" and "read" noises in human visual perception ?
Well, I only use these particular terms, as they are used in digital imaging (note, I'm not separating them either).

But, quite simply - just go into a (completely) darkroom, allow some time to settle/adjust to the darkness, and what do you see?

I'm pretty sure most people will have some experience of visual 'dark-noise'.

No light > so no photons > therefore not photon noise, but 'dark noise' - which must be 'neuro-physical/chemical' in nature.

Also, rub your eyes, and quite likely you'll enjoy even more 'noise'.
But, as I see, it could easily be expectation effect.
I think so.
No[r] do I know if everyone can do this, or only some people.
Some people see aliens, ghosts, and hear voices too. ;-)
I see dead people.
Not too often, I would hope?!

[In any case - 'dead people' aren't necessarily invisible.]
Only problem is, they keep coming back for more ...
Sure 'DM' (...cue 'The Twilight Zone' theme music).
 
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You see the shot noise, for one thing. You see not much detail, for another, you see not much colour (except in the shot noise).
That is almost certainly not 'shot noise'.

Far, far, more likely it is just dark/read noise (something entirely different to shot noise).
Care to elaborate on the nature and form of "dark" and "read" noises in human visual perception ?
Well, I only use these particular terms, as they are used in digital imaging (note, I'm not separating them either).
Please be sure to refer to this post: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/54668015
But, quite simply - just go into a (completely) darkroom, allow some time to settle/adjust to the darkness, and what do you see?

I'm pretty sure most people will have some experience of visual 'dark-noise'.

No light > so no photons > therefore not photon noise, but 'dark noise' - which must be 'neuro-physical/chemical' in nature.

Also, rub your eyes, and quite likely you'll enjoy even more 'noise'.
It (might) make hair grow on my palms ... so I wisely refrain from such laboratory experiments ...
But, as I see, it could easily be expectation effect.
I think so.
No[r] do I know if everyone can do this, or only some people.
Some people see aliens, ghosts, and hear voices too. ;-)
I see dead people.
Not too often, I would hope?!

[In any case - 'dead people' aren't necessarily invisible.]
Only problem is, they keep coming back for more ...
Sure 'DM' (...cue 'The Twilight Zone' theme music).
I intended to mean people who are dead inside ... bereft of empathy, compassion, and/or grace.
 
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I do not mean "see photon shot noise" in representations of the world made by imaging devices.

I do mean "see photon shot noise" utilizing one's very own eyes in the physical world around us.

If the answer is "yes", how have you convinced yourself that what you are perceiving is in actuality a result of quantum properties of electromagnetic energy in the range of (by human beings) "visible wavelengths" ? How would or could one actually "prove" such a beholding to self and/or others ?

If the answer is "no", what "mechanistically describable" conceptual characterizations surrounding the translation of optical energy (via "visual faculties" - from eyeballs to one's "mind's eyes") may exist ?
...due to the immense processing applied by the brain. Perhaps, if you were to look at something completely unrecognizable, you might see it while the brain is busy trying to interpret what your eyes are seeing an how to process it. For example, the face of that six pack beauty lying next to you who you picked up last night at a bar, when you open your eyes early in the morning a half hour or so before sunrise when you have to take a leak.
 
I do not mean "see photon shot noise" in representations of the world made by imaging devices.

I do mean "see photon shot noise" utilizing one's very own eyes in the physical world around us.

If the answer is "yes", how have you convinced yourself that what you are perceiving is in actuality a result of quantum properties of electromagnetic energy in the range of (by human beings) "visible wavelengths" ? How would or could one actually "prove" such a beholding to self and/or others ?

If the answer is "no", what "mechanistically describable" conceptual characterizations surrounding the translation of optical energy (via "visual faculties" - from eyeballs to one's "mind's eyes") may exist ?
...due to the immense processing applied by the brain. Perhaps, if you were to look at something completely unrecognizable, you might see it while the brain is busy trying to interpret what your eyes are seeing an how to process it.
Indeed, I have read that the angle of useful foveal coverage is but a few degrees of arc. What is hard to imagine is how our minds (organic brain not necessarily comprising all of its process-related aspects) merely "paints" the rest in - from optical quality highly compromised when off-angle ...

That small percentage of area coverage itself (even "scanned") might account for a great deal. Most people, when asked their "ocular field of view", would probably not report a few degrees - yet it seems that the perceived additional reported FOV is made from the stuff that dreams are made of.

I think of an analogy (for mind compared to brain) where the "epinome" (the software) is what controls expressions of the "genome" (the "hardware"). The process transcends the machinery.

.
For example, the face of that six pack beauty lying next to you who you picked up last night at a bar, when you open your eyes early in the morning a half hour or so before sunrise when you have to take a leak.
That line should definitely go into the "best quotes" section at your "Who's Who" web-page ...

DM ... :P
 
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I do not mean "see photon shot noise" in representations of the world made by imaging devices.

I do mean "see photon shot noise" utilizing one's very own eyes in the physical world around us.

If the answer is "yes", how have you convinced yourself that what you are perceiving is in actuality a result of quantum properties of electromagnetic energy in the range of (by human beings) "visible wavelengths" ? How would or could one actually "prove" such a beholding to self and/or others ?

If the answer is "no", what "mechanistically describable" conceptual characterizations surrounding the translation of optical energy (via "visual faculties" - from eyeballs to one's "mind's eyes") may exist ?
...due to the immense processing applied by the brain. Perhaps, if you were to look at something completely unrecognizable, you might see it while the brain is busy trying to interpret what your eyes are seeing an how to process it. For example, the face of that six pack beauty lying next to you who you picked up last night at a bar, when you open your eyes early in the morning a half hour or so before sunrise when you have to take a leak.
Are you referring to the mysterious phenomenon of "beer goggles"?

J.
 
I do not mean "see photon shot noise" in representations of the world made by imaging devices.

I do mean "see photon shot noise" utilizing one's very own eyes in the physical world around us.

If the answer is "yes", how have you convinced yourself that what you are perceiving is in actuality a result of quantum properties of electromagnetic energy in the range of (by human beings) "visible wavelengths" ? How would or could one actually "prove" such a beholding to self and/or others ?

If the answer is "no", what "mechanistically describable" conceptual characterizations surrounding the translation of optical energy (via "visual faculties" - from eyeballs to one's "mind's eyes") may exist ?
...due to the immense processing applied by the brain. Perhaps, if you were to look at something completely unrecognizable, you might see it while the brain is busy trying to interpret what your eyes are seeing an how to process it. For example, the face of that six pack beauty lying next to you who you picked up last night at a bar, when you open your eyes early in the morning a half hour or so before sunrise when you have to take a leak.
Are you referring to the mysterious phenomenon of "beer goggles"?
This forum is not the gutter that is Off Topic, so please take care with your language. Here, such an important visual phenomena is called a "beer filter" -- please make a note of it.
 
I do not mean "see photon shot noise" in representations of the world made by imaging devices.

I do mean "see photon shot noise" utilizing one's very own eyes in the physical world around us.

If the answer is "yes", how have you convinced yourself that what you are perceiving is in actuality a result of quantum properties of electromagnetic energy in the range of (by human beings) "visible wavelengths" ? How would or could one actually "prove" such a beholding to self and/or others ?

If the answer is "no", what "mechanistically describable" conceptual characterizations surrounding the translation of optical energy (via "visual faculties" - from eyeballs to one's "mind's eyes") may exist ?
The problem with subjective experimentation on one self is, well, it's subjective and subject to all of the confounding effects which uncontrolled experiments with human beings have. That being said, if I go into a dark place, let my eyes adapt to the dark so I can actually see something and reflect on what I'm seeing, yes, I see shot noise. You have to consciously uncouple the brain's image processing, which is a toughy.

However, the photonic response of the rods and cones is pretty well researched and documented, as is their effective quantum efficiency. based on what is know, the output from the photo-receptors in your eye is very definitely subject to photon shot noise.
In very low-light conditions I have experienced visual effects that look an awful lot like photon shot noise, but I've never done any BOTE estimates to see if that was a plausible explanation.

J.
 
I do not mean "see photon shot noise" in representations of the world made by imaging devices.

I do mean "see photon shot noise" utilizing one's very own eyes in the physical world around us.

If the answer is "yes", how have you convinced yourself that what you are perceiving is in actuality a result of quantum properties of electromagnetic energy in the range of (by human beings) "visible wavelengths" ? How would or could one actually "prove" such a beholding to self and/or others ?

If the answer is "no", what "mechanistically describable" conceptual characterizations surrounding the translation of optical energy (via "visual faculties" - from eyeballs to one's "mind's eyes") may exist ?
The problem with subjective experimentation on one self is, well, it's subjective and subject to all of the confounding effects which uncontrolled experiments with human beings have. That being said, if I go into a dark place, let my eyes adapt to the dark so I can actually see something and reflect on what I'm seeing, yes, I see shot noise. You have to consciously uncouple the brain's image processing, which is a toughy.

However, the photonic response of the rods and cones is pretty well researched and documented, as is their effective quantum efficiency. based on what is know, the output from the photo-receptors in your eye is very definitely subject to photon shot noise.
In very low-light conditions I have experienced visual effects that look an awful lot like photon shot noise, but I've never done any BOTE estimates to see if that was a plausible explanation.
What does "BOTE" signify ?
 
I do not mean "see photon shot noise" in representations of the world made by imaging devices.

I do mean "see photon shot noise" utilizing one's very own eyes in the physical world around us.

If the answer is "yes", how have you convinced yourself that what you are perceiving is in actuality a result of quantum properties of electromagnetic energy in the range of (by human beings) "visible wavelengths" ? How would or could one actually "prove" such a beholding to self and/or others ?

If the answer is "no", what "mechanistically describable" conceptual characterizations surrounding the translation of optical energy (via "visual faculties" - from eyeballs to one's "mind's eyes") may exist ?
The problem with subjective experimentation on one self is, well, it's subjective and subject to all of the confounding effects which uncontrolled experiments with human beings have. That being said, if I go into a dark place, let my eyes adapt to the dark so I can actually see something and reflect on what I'm seeing, yes, I see shot noise. You have to consciously uncouple the brain's image processing, which is a toughy.

However, the photonic response of the rods and cones is pretty well researched and documented, as is their effective quantum efficiency. based on what is know, the output from the photo-receptors in your eye is very definitely subject to photon shot noise.
In very low-light conditions I have experienced visual effects that look an awful lot like photon shot noise, but I've never done any BOTE estimates to see if that was a plausible explanation.
What does "BOTE" signify ?
Either "back-of-the-envelope" or "booty" -- never can tell with that guy. ;-)
 
I do not mean "see photon shot noise" in representations of the world made by imaging devices.

I do mean "see photon shot noise" utilizing one's very own eyes in the physical world around us.

If the answer is "yes", how have you convinced yourself that what you are perceiving is in actuality a result of quantum properties of electromagnetic energy in the range of (by human beings) "visible wavelengths" ? How would or could one actually "prove" such a beholding to self and/or others ?

If the answer is "no", what "mechanistically describable" conceptual characterizations surrounding the translation of optical energy (via "visual faculties" - from eyeballs to one's "mind's eyes") may exist ?
The problem with subjective experimentation on one self is, well, it's subjective and subject to all of the confounding effects which uncontrolled experiments with human beings have. That being said, if I go into a dark place, let my eyes adapt to the dark so I can actually see something and reflect on what I'm seeing, yes, I see shot noise. You have to consciously uncouple the brain's image processing, which is a toughy.

However, the photonic response of the rods and cones is pretty well researched and documented, as is their effective quantum efficiency. based on what is know, the output from the photo-receptors in your eye is very definitely subject to photon shot noise.
In very low-light conditions I have experienced visual effects that look an awful lot like photon shot noise, but I've never done any BOTE estimates to see if that was a plausible explanation.
What does "BOTE" signify ?
Either "back-of-the-envelope" or "booty" -- never can tell with that guy. ;-)
I have been unable *not* to think of a few others - surely too naughty to be aired on this farm ...
 
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You see the shot noise, for one thing. You see not much detail, for another, you see not much colour (except in the shot noise).
That is almost certainly not 'shot noise'.

Far, far, more likely it is just dark/read noise (something entirely different to shot noise).
Care to elaborate on the nature and form of "dark" and "read" noises in human visual perception ?
Well, I only use these particular terms, as they are used in digital imaging (note, I'm not separating them either).
Please be sure to refer to this post: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/54668015
The thread has moved on from your initial post - 'be sure' to note, that my initial response was to 'bobn2', not you.
But, quite simply - just go into a (completely) darkroom, allow some time to settle/adjust to the darkness, and what do you see?

I'm pretty sure most people will have some experience of visual 'dark-noise'.

No light > so no photons > therefore not photon noise, but 'dark noise' - which must be 'neuro-physical/chemical' in nature.

Also, rub your eyes, and quite likely you'll enjoy even more 'noise'.
It (might) make hair grow on my palms ... so I wisely refrain from such laboratory experiments ...
But, as I see, it could easily be expectation effect.
I think so.
No[r] do I know if everyone can do this, or only some people.
Some people see aliens, ghosts, and hear voices too. ;-)
I see dead people.
Not too often, I would hope?!

[In any case - 'dead people' aren't necessarily invisible.]
Only problem is, they keep coming back for more ...
Sure 'DM' (...cue 'The Twilight Zone' theme music).
I intended to mean people who are dead inside ... bereft of empathy, compassion, and/or grace.
I knew exactly what you 'meant' - and I responded accordingly; with gentle ridicule/mockery/humouring of you (as opposed to the rather pitiful disposition that you appear to exhibit and hold).
 
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I do not mean "see photon shot noise" in representations of the world made by imaging devices.

I do mean "see photon shot noise" utilizing one's very own eyes in the physical world around us.

If the answer is "yes", how have you convinced yourself that what you are perceiving is in actuality a result of quantum properties of electromagnetic energy in the range of (by human beings) "visible wavelengths" ? How would or could one actually "prove" such a beholding to self and/or others ?

If the answer is "no", what "mechanistically describable" conceptual characterizations surrounding the translation of optical energy (via "visual faculties" - from eyeballs to one's "mind's eyes") may exist ?
...due to the immense processing applied by the brain. Perhaps, if you were to look at something completely unrecognizable, you might see it while the brain is busy trying to interpret what your eyes are seeing an how to process it. For example, the face of that six pack beauty lying next to you who you picked up last night at a bar, when you open your eyes early in the morning a half hour or so before sunrise when you have to take a leak.
Are you referring to the mysterious phenomenon of "beer goggles"?
This forum is not the gutter that is Off Topic, so please take care with your language. Here, such an important visual phenomena is called a "beer filter" -- please make a note of it.
Humble apologies - I shall go and recite Snell's Law ten times as an act of contrition...

J.
 
I do not mean "see photon shot noise" in representations of the world made by imaging devices.

I do mean "see photon shot noise" utilizing one's very own eyes in the physical world around us.

If the answer is "yes", how have you convinced yourself that what you are perceiving is in actuality a result of quantum properties of electromagnetic energy in the range of (by human beings) "visible wavelengths" ? How would or could one actually "prove" such a beholding to self and/or others ?

If the answer is "no", what "mechanistically describable" conceptual characterizations surrounding the translation of optical energy (via "visual faculties" - from eyeballs to one's "mind's eyes") may exist ?
The problem with subjective experimentation on one self is, well, it's subjective and subject to all of the confounding effects which uncontrolled experiments with human beings have. That being said, if I go into a dark place, let my eyes adapt to the dark so I can actually see something and reflect on what I'm seeing, yes, I see shot noise. You have to consciously uncouple the brain's image processing, which is a toughy.

However, the photonic response of the rods and cones is pretty well researched and documented, as is their effective quantum efficiency. based on what is know, the output from the photo-receptors in your eye is very definitely subject to photon shot noise.
In very low-light conditions I have experienced visual effects that look an awful lot like photon shot noise, but I've never done any BOTE estimates to see if that was a plausible explanation.
What does "BOTE" signify ?
Either "back-of-the-envelope" or "booty" -- never can tell with that guy. ;-)
Hey! It's the envelope thing, dude...
 
I do not mean "see photon shot noise" in representations of the world made by imaging devices.

I do mean "see photon shot noise" utilizing one's very own eyes in the physical world around us.

If the answer is "yes", how have you convinced yourself that what you are perceiving is in actuality a result of quantum properties of electromagnetic energy in the range of (by human beings) "visible wavelengths" ? How would or could one actually "prove" such a beholding to self and/or others ?

If the answer is "no", what "mechanistically describable" conceptual characterizations surrounding the translation of optical energy (via "visual faculties" - from eyeballs to one's "mind's eyes") may exist ?
The problem with subjective experimentation on one self is, well, it's subjective and subject to all of the confounding effects which uncontrolled experiments with human beings have. That being said, if I go into a dark place, let my eyes adapt to the dark so I can actually see something and reflect on what I'm seeing, yes, I see shot noise. You have to consciously uncouple the brain's image processing, which is a toughy.

However, the photonic response of the rods and cones is pretty well researched and documented, as is their effective quantum efficiency. based on what is know, the output from the photo-receptors in your eye is very definitely subject to photon shot noise.
In very low-light conditions I have experienced visual effects that look an awful lot like photon shot noise, but I've never done any BOTE estimates to see if that was a plausible explanation.
What does "BOTE" signify ?
Either "back-of-the-envelope" or "booty" -- never can tell with that guy. ;-)
Hey! It's the envelope thing, dude...
Me, I like to stick with "seat of the pants". Once the mudsharks close in, feed chum at own risk ...

:P
 
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You see the shot noise, for one thing. You see not much detail, for another, you see not much colour (except in the shot noise).
That is almost certainly not 'shot noise'.

Far, far, more likely it is just dark/read noise (something entirely different to shot noise).
Well, it's possible - but I'm pretty aware of the differences. There is a kind of 'read noise' in total blackness to, random neurons popping off.
But, as I see, it could easily be expectation effect.
I think so.
Or it may not be. Impossible to tell, isn't it?
No[r] do I know if everyone can do this, or only some people.
Some people see aliens, ghosts, and hear voices too. ;-)
Yes, but elementary physics doesn't suggest that they should.
 
I'd like to answer 'Surely Not', but if I do then you'll want me to answer the last sentence of your post.

Unfortunately I'm not clever enough to work out what it means.

Sorry for this unhelpful reply.
 
I do not mean "see photon shot noise" in representations of the world made by imaging devices.

I do mean "see photon shot noise" utilizing one's very own eyes in the physical world around us.

If the answer is "yes", how have you convinced yourself that what you are perceiving is in actuality a result of quantum properties of electromagnetic energy in the range of (by human beings) "visible wavelengths" ? How would or could one actually "prove" such a beholding to self and/or others ?

If the answer is "no", what "mechanistically describable" conceptual characterizations surrounding the translation of optical energy (via "visual faculties" - from eyeballs to one's "mind's eyes") may exist ?
...due to the immense processing applied by the brain. Perhaps, if you were to look at something completely unrecognizable, you might see it while the brain is busy trying to interpret what your eyes are seeing an how to process it. [snip]
I have had the curious experience of seeing something completely novel and unrecognisable, and it caused my brain to do a bit of a flip trying to interpret what I was seeing. It happened when I was an inexperienced scuba diver on my first reasonably deep dive, when I came across a large cuttle-fish in a small overhanging cave. I had never seen one or even suspected that such a thing existed, and it was only lit by a small flashlight, so I stared at it for several minutes trying to reconcile what I was seeing into some kind of understandable geometrical and zoological structure. It was completely disorienting; so I'm in no doubt that I'm not seeing the raw image from my eyes, but something that has been processed via all kinds of previous life experience...

J.
 
I do not mean "see photon shot noise" in representations of the world made by imaging devices.

I do mean "see photon shot noise" utilizing one's very own eyes in the physical world around us.
Great question.

I think the answer is that our visual system is designed to reject photon shot noise in much the same way that it rejects object color changes caused by tinted lighting -- or interpolates over the eye's blind spot. In other words, we certainly see it, but process to remove it from our perception.

Actually, to me this is one of the biggest problems with the digital imaging community: photography (and vision) isn't really about recording light, but about constructing a model of the scene. There is very little "survival value" to perception of statistical variations in lighting, so we generally don't perceive it. However, distinguishing between a tasty kind of fruit and a posionous one with a slightly different hue -- even when the lighting has changed so that the poisonous one has the same color as the tasty kind has in normal daylight -- well, that has obvious survival value. In fact, recognizing that an object has a continuous surface despite the fact that the photons that reveal it to us are intermittent (due to photon shot noise) gives survival value to not perceiving photo shot noise.

In extremely dim lighting the flaws in our perceptive processing do occasionally reveal artifacts that I suspect are photon shot noise overpowering our ability to make a good model. For example, I've often noticed that my perception of surfaces as continuous is often disrupted in very dim light, e.g., a solid wall will sometimes appear to be several disjoint pieces in very dim light.
It is a pleasure to hear your interesting and valuable thoughts offered. I am thinking (as stated):

Indeed, I have read that the angle of useful foveal coverage is but a few degrees of arc. What is hard to imagine is how our minds (organic brain not necessarily comprising all of its process-related aspects) merely "paints" the rest in - from optical quality highly compromised when off-angle ...

That small percentage of area coverage itself (even "scanned") might account for a great deal. Most people, when asked their "ocular field of view", would probably not report a few degrees - yet it seems that the perceived additional reported FOV is made from the stuff that dreams are made of.


That (effectively massively "de-focused", in an optical sense) area existing outside of what I understand to be only a few degrees of "wideband" foveal vision - even in a case where the point-of-focus is rapidly "scanned" about - might seem to offer more than enough "low-pass" filtering (so to speak) - not to mention that it is mind itself that effectively "paints-in" the content perceived.

Thus, what quantum levels of light we may be able to perceive seemingly can only occur within a small fraction of the total (and much larger) area that almost anybody would estimate their ocular FOV to be. That situation (even on a simple de-focusing/blurring basis on retinal structures themseleves) would seem to have an effect of vastly improving (a perceived) "signal/noise ratio".

If we reduce the number of photons down (in hopes of degrading the photon-shot-noise based SNR), then we must deal (instead) primarily with the rods (and not the cones). Lest any reader come to think that this ocular/pre-optic processing system (said to have been around 500,000 Million years in development) is some simple "piece of cake" - like "falling off a log" should have a look at this:

Source: http://www.detectingdesign.com/images/HumanEye/Muller%20Glial%20Cells.jpg

Source: http://www.detectingdesign.com/images/HumanEye/Muller Glial Cells.jpg

Regards,

DM
 
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You see the shot noise, for one thing. You see not much detail, for another, you see not much colour (except in the shot noise).
That is almost certainly not 'shot noise'.

Far, far, more likely it is just dark/read noise (something entirely different to shot noise).
Well, it's possible - but I'm pretty aware of the differences.
This is the crucial point - what difference(s)?

How could you 'see' the difference.
There is a kind of 'read noise' in total blackness to, random neurons popping off.
Without question.
But, as I see, it could easily be expectation effect.
I think so.
Or it may not be. Impossible to tell, isn't it?
That's really my point.

I don't doubt that human vision is affected by some degree of photon shot noise, at some level - but I suspect that it would most probably be indistinguishable/inseparable from vision 'dark noise'.

I simply don't accept that anyone could (to quote your words) "... see shot noise" by "... consciously uncoupling the brain's image processing, which is a toughy" .
No[r] do I know if everyone can do this, or only some people.
Some people see aliens, ghosts, and hear voices too.
Yes, but elementary physics doesn't suggest that they should.
But "...consciously uncoupling the brain's processing" ...just might! ;-)
 
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I see plenty of noise in dim light, especially on smooth surfaces. How much of this is shot noise and how much is within the visual system (equivalent to thermal noise in a camera), I don't know.

Most of the time it is ignored, but it's there any time I pay attention to it.
 

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