'Lo' indication at low light conditions.

Georgios · Oct 20, 2014

Hello,

I use Aperture priority in D90. When the light fades the speed drops to a point where in the viewfinder the speed indication is replaced by the letters 'Lo'. Beyond this point I can know longer see what speed the D90 chooses to use although I am still able to use auto-focus. In Manual mode this does not occur. I can see the speed dropping down all way to one or two full seconds. What am I doing wrong? Where in the menu should I search to trigger full speed metering in Aperture priority?

BirgerH · Oct 20, 2014

Georgios said:
Hello,

I use Aperture priority in D90. When the light fades the speed drops to a point where in the viewfinder the speed indication is replaced by the letters 'Lo'. Beyond this point I can know longer see what speed the D90 chooses to use although I am still able to use auto-focus. In Manual mode this does not occur. I can see the speed dropping down all way to one or two full seconds. What am I doing wrong? Where in the menu should I search to trigger full speed metering in Aperture priority?

The "Lo" indicates that you have reached the lowest shutterspeed for the choosen aperture (30 sec). You will then have to raise the ISO or open up the aperture.

In A you set an desired aperture - the camera will choose the appropriate shutterspeed - until the light availlable makes it impossible to get right exposure - then it shows "Lo".

In S, you set the shutterspeed - and the aperture will go to full open - after that it shows the "Lo"

In Manual - you can not see the speed dropping Down (did I misunderstood you there?) - you set the speed and the aperture, and it will stay with that and expose from those settings.

All of this can be regulated with ISO and AutoISO.

BirgerH.

Georgios · Oct 20, 2014

Let me elaborate a little more. I have the D90 on a tripod. ISO stays the same. I test in a studio. The lighting condition stays the same. Aperture stays the same. The subject is the same, camera does not move. When in Aperture priority mode the D90 displays "Lo' in the place of shutter speed. Then I switch to Manual mode. I adjust the shutter speed until I gain optimum exposure via the scale. Camera needs 8'' (8 seconds). Why the D90 do not display the 8'' needed shutter speed in Aperture priority mode? It has not reached the 30'' limit for sure.

Mako2011 · Oct 20, 2014

Georgios said:
Let me elaborate a little more. I have the D90 on a tripod. ISO stays the same. I test in a studio. The lighting condition stays the same. Aperture stays the same. The subject is the same, camera does not move. When in Aperture priority mode the D90 displays "Lo' in the place of shutter speed.

That is normal when the scene is too dark (as BirgerH explained) and is covered on page 255 of the manual. You need to use a higher ISO, use a larger aperture, or use flash to compensate.

Georgios said:
Then I switch to Manual mode. I adjust the shutter speed until I gain optimum exposure via the scale. Camera needs 8'' (8 seconds). Why the D90 do not display the 8'' needed shutter speed in Aperture priority mode?

Because the aperture you have set in aperture priority does not work for an 8 sec exposure but needs greater than 30sec.

Georgios said:
It has not reached the 30'' limit for sure.

In Aperture priority....set the same exact aperture, ISO, and EC you have in manual exposure mode and see if you still get "LO". Are you metering exactly the same in both exposure modes? Is the meter in the view finder centered in your 8sec manual mode exposure?

BirgerH · Oct 20, 2014

Georgios said:
Let me elaborate a little more. I have the D90 on a tripod. ISO stays the same. I test in a studio. The lighting condition stays the same. Aperture stays the same. The subject is the same, camera does not move. When in Aperture priority mode the D90 displays "Lo' in the place of shutter speed. Then I switch to Manual mode. I adjust the shutter speed until I gain optimum exposure via the scale. Camera needs 8'' (8 seconds). Why the D90 do not display the 8'' needed shutter speed in Aperture priority mode? It has not reached the 30'' limit for sure.

Hmm...

If everything else are the same, ISO - metering method - AF-mode and AF-aremode and focus-selection, no or same EC etc. etc. - it certainly should give you the same metering. Mine does as far as I have just tried.

BirgerH.

sillyconguru · Oct 20, 2014

Georgios said:
Hello,

I use Aperture priority in D90. When the light fades the speed drops to a point where in the viewfinder the speed indication is replaced by the letters 'Lo'. Beyond this point I can know longer see what speed the D90 chooses to use although I am still able to use auto-focus. In Manual mode this does not occur. I can see the speed dropping down all way to one or two full seconds. What am I doing wrong? Where in the menu should I search to trigger full speed metering in Aperture priority?

This is intended behaviour. In any exposure mode except manual the camera's light meter will indicate 'Lo' when the ambient light level drops below (IIRC) 0EV (in Matrix & centre-weighted) & -1EV (in spot metering). At these low light levels correct exposure is not guaranteed because the light meter isn't as accurate as it is in normal light.

BirgerH · Oct 20, 2014

sillyconguru said:
Georgios said:

Hello,

I use Aperture priority in D90. When the light fades the speed drops to a point where in the viewfinder the speed indication is replaced by the letters 'Lo'. Beyond this point I can know longer see what speed the D90 chooses to use although I am still able to use auto-focus. In Manual mode this does not occur. I can see the speed dropping down all way to one or two full seconds. What am I doing wrong? Where in the menu should I search to trigger full speed metering in Aperture priority?

Click to expand...

This is intended behaviour. In any exposure mode except manual the camera's light meter will indicate 'Lo' when the ambient light level drops below (IIRC) 0EV (in Matrix & centre-weighted) & -1EV (in spot metering). At these low light levels correct exposure is not guaranteed because the light meter isn't as accurate as it is in normal light.

Is that so?

Never knew - but it will answer the question, I guess.

Thanks for the information.

BirgerH.

Mako2011 · Oct 20, 2014

sillyconguru said:
Georgios said:

Hello,

I use Aperture priority in D90. When the light fades the speed drops to a point where in the viewfinder the speed indication is replaced by the letters 'Lo'. Beyond this point I can know longer see what speed the D90 chooses to use although I am still able to use auto-focus. In Manual mode this does not occur. I can see the speed dropping down all way to one or two full seconds. What am I doing wrong? Where in the menu should I search to trigger full speed metering in Aperture priority?

Click to expand...

This is intended behaviour. In any exposure mode except manual the camera's light meter will indicate 'Lo' when the ambient light level drops below (IIRC) 0EV (in Matrix & centre-weighted) & -1EV (in spot metering). At these low light levels correct exposure is not guaranteed because the light meter isn't as accurate as it is in normal light.

Thanks...good explanation. Manual says the same thing but you word it way better

Georgios · Oct 21, 2014

In page 255 of the Nikon D90 manual says about the 'Lo' indication: 'Subject too dark; photo will be underexposed.' To be clear again, either in Aperture priority or Manual the ISO stays at 200 and the aperture at 2.8. I focus with the centre focus point at the same subject indoors. The light is artificial and unchanged. Using Manual mode I will obtain proper exposure, the scale in the viewfinder is at 0, at shutter speed of 8''. I should expect in Aperture priority with the same 2.8 aperture the meter to show 8'' for the proper exposure. The D90 can achieve proper exposure using shutter speed of 8'' (8 seconds). I still can not understand why it shows 'Lo'. Up to the limit of 30'' it has plenty of speed range to achieve proper exposure. Does this mean that I can not use Aperture priority mode for low light (over 1'') conditions? Is Manual mode my only choice for proper exposure in low light conditions?

BirgerH · Oct 21, 2014

Georgios said:
In page 255 of the Nikon D90 manual says about the 'Lo' indication: 'Subject too dark; photo will be underexposed.' To be clear again, either in Aperture priority or Manual the ISO stays at 200 and the aperture at 2.8. I focus with the centre focus point at the same subject indoors. The light is artificial and unchanged. Using Manual mode I will obtain proper exposure, the scale in the viewfinder is at 0, at shutter speed of 8''. I should expect in Aperture priority with the same 2.8 aperture the meter to show 8'' for the proper exposure. The D90 can achieve proper exposure using shutter speed of 8'' (8 seconds). I still can not understand why it shows 'Lo'. Up to the limit of 30'' it has plenty of speed range to achieve proper exposure. Does this mean that I can not use Aperture priority mode for low light (over 1'') conditions? Is Manual mode my only choice for proper exposure in low light conditions?

From your numbers (Ap=2.8 Ss= 8" and ISO 200) the available LV/EV (Light Value or Exposure Value) is -1EV, - then according to sillyConguru, the "A" simply can't be used. But it is much less light, than I would have supposed there would be with "artificial" lightning - should be in the range of 4-10 EV.

When I tried to replicate your situation, I had much more light - actually I had to use f:16 to get 8" - and with that much light (should be 5 stops more or 4EV) I had no problem using "A" to get 8". Stopping Down made the Ss follow as it should.

Seems that sillyConguru is right here: it's not about long-time exposure - it's about the ambient light being that weak, that Nikon simply cuts out the Automatic exposure modes - not being reliable enough to read the metering values.

Might not seems logically - in return it might seems right

You are right about the manual - no where it is explained, that "M" under certain circumstances would be more reliable in metering, than "A - S - or P", and that the camera therefor will "Cut-off" the metering in this situations.

BirgerH.

Tommy TJ · Oct 22, 2014

It's normal but it's not something all makers do a quirk that comes with Nikon most cameras will indicate the shutter speed rather than the unhelpful "lo" indication in the viewfinder, a minor niggle though

BirgerH · Oct 22, 2014

Tommy TJ said:
It's normal but it's not something all makers do a quirk that comes with Nikon most cameras will indicate the shutter speed rather than the unhelpful "lo" indication in the viewfinder, a minor niggle though

No - that's the point. It's not a quirk.

Showing "Lo" tells, that the camera is not able to meter reliable. As long as it shows shutterspeeds, it is able to - you can rely on the exposure-parameters as long.

Then, by showing "Lo" you have to:

Use a lens, that has a greater max aperture.

Add light to the scene - or

use "M" instead of "A" or "S".

You wouldn't know that if having an unreliable shutterspeed-indication.

Back stands - maybe Mako knows - why is metering in "M" considered more reliable under these conditions, than metering in "A" or "S".

BirgerH

Tommy TJ · Oct 22, 2014

BirgerH said:
Tommy TJ said:

It's normal but it's not something all makers do a quirk that comes with Nikon most cameras will indicate the shutter speed rather than the unhelpful "lo" indication in the viewfinder, a minor niggle though

Click to expand...

No - that's the point. It's not a quirk.

Showing "Lo" tells, that the camera is not able to meter reliable. As long as it shows shutterspeeds, it is able to - you can rely on the exposure-parameters as long.

Then, by showing "Lo" you have to:

Use a lens, that has a greater max aperture.

Add light to the scene - or

use "M" instead of "A" or "S".

You wouldn't know that if having an unreliable shutterspeed-indication.

Back stands - maybe Mako knows - why is metering in "M" considered more reliable under these conditions, than metering in "A" or "S".

BirgerH

Normal is defined as "conforming to the standard or the common type"

I don't see the same behaviour on the other cameras makers I've used, it's not a big deal as such but odd it's not really normal though it might be to the Nikon designers but not to everyone else. Still I'd not lose sleep over it it's been covered before I'm not sure everyone feels it's a good implementation..

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BirgerH · Oct 22, 2014

Tommy TJ said:
BirgerH said:

Tommy TJ said:

It's normal but it's not something all makers do a quirk that comes with Nikon most cameras will indicate the shutter speed rather than the unhelpful "lo" indication in the viewfinder, a minor niggle though

Click to expand...

No - that's the point. It's not a quirk.

Showing "Lo" tells, that the camera is not able to meter reliable. As long as it shows shutterspeeds, it is able to - you can rely on the exposure-parameters as long.

Then, by showing "Lo" you have to:

Use a lens, that has a greater max aperture.

Add light to the scene - or

use "M" instead of "A" or "S".

You wouldn't know that if having an unreliable shutterspeed-indication.

Back stands - maybe Mako knows - why is metering in "M" considered more reliable under these conditions, than metering in "A" or "S".

BirgerH

Click to expand...

Normal is defined as "conforming to the standard or the common type"

I don't see the same behaviour on the other cameras makers I've used, it's not a big deal as such but odd it's not really normal though it might be to the Nikon designers but not to everyone else. Still I'd not lose sleep over it it's been covered before I'm not sure everyone feels it's a good implementation..

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3094634

Thanks for the reference to that thread.

And you might be right about what others do - anyway, as I mentioned, I didn't knew about this behavior before - but now knowing, I don't find it as a quirk - rather as a good way to warn the user of some special shooting conditions, that would make the metering unreliable.

Yes - thinking it through - I feel it as a good implementation.

BirgerH.

Tommy TJ · Oct 22, 2014

I found it quite annoying for a few reasons tripod or night shooting.

I've used cameras that could meter fine even longer exposures (film and digital bodies) I see no reason Nikon should be any different. Saying that I've read the Nikon user manuals and they warn you not to poke your fingernail into your eye changing the dioptre setting on a DSLR!

Not crazy about hand holding by manufacturers I just need to see the shutter speed not a cryptic "lo" indication (I suspect most would agree) so I consider it a quirk myself.

Mako2011 · Oct 22, 2014

Tommy TJ said:
I found it quite annoying for a few reasons tripod or night shooting.

With the newer models, (D7100 as an example) you do not get the "Lo"...now you get a flashing meter which indicates a reading that is likely inaccurate as the subject is now to dark (outside meters range). If you count on those readings...your likely wrong. I prefer the "Lo" in that case.

Tommy TJ said:
I've used cameras that could meter fine even longer exposures (film and digital bodies)

And the current Nikon lineup meters to darker levels than in the past. Whe you get the "lo" your usually below -0EV (lens dependent)

Tommy TJ said:
I see no reason Nikon should be any different.

They are not. They are actually much improved.

Tommy TJ said:
Saying that I've read the Nikon user manuals and they warn you not to poke your fingernail into your eye changing the dioptre setting on a DSLR!

One of my Favs

Tommy TJ said:
Not crazy about hand holding by manufacturers I just need to see the shutter speed not a cryptic "lo" indication (I suspect most would agree) so I consider it a quirk myself.

I don't consider it a quirk really...since showing a shutter speed in that case might send one down the wrong trail...and they should likely be in a manual mode anyways. After all, "Lo" means the RGB meter is no longer reliable for automatic exposure modes. I'd like to know that rather than get a shutter speed that's not really reliable. Pros and Cons

--
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

BirgerH · Oct 23, 2014

Mako2011 said:
Tommy TJ said:

I found it quite annoying for a few reasons tripod or night shooting.

Click to expand...

With the newer models, (D7100 as an example) you do not get the "Lo"...now you get a flashing meter which indicates a reading that is likely inaccurate as the subject is now to dark (outside meters range). If you count on those readings...your likely wrong. I prefer the "Lo" in that case.

Mako2011 said:

I've used cameras that could meter fine even longer exposures (film and digital bodies)

Click to expand...

And the current Nikon lineup meters to darker levels than in the past. Whe you get the "lo" your usually below -0EV (lens dependent)

I don't see this as a limitation of "long expusure" photography either - you would probably do this in "M" already, because you always (imo) would like to set both aperture and shutterspeed your self.

Mako2011 said:
Mako2011 said:

I see no reason Nikon should be any different.

Click to expand...

They are not. They are actually much improved.

Mako2011 said:

Saying that I've read the Nikon user manuals and they warn you not to poke your fingernail into your eye changing the dioptre setting on a DSLR!

Click to expand...

One of my Favs

Yeah - there we are Again - Nikon does not score very much point with their manuals. There should be a technical reference - we have discussed AF-systems - metering systems - flash-system - the other threads "tracking Off" system and now this - all layed out to entusiastic people around the World to try out for them selves - instead of Nikon spreading only just a Little light at there own (and most of the times very good) inventions. Nah - anyway - thanks to those who have time and resources to do it.

Mako2011 said:
Mako2011 said:

Not crazy about hand holding by manufacturers I just need to see the shutter speed not a cryptic "lo" indication (I suspect most would agree) so I consider it a quirk myself.

Click to expand...

I don't consider it a quirk really...since showing a shutter speed in that case might send one down the wrong trail...and they should likely be in a manual mode anyways. After all, "Lo" means the RGB meter is no longer reliable for automatic exposure modes.

Yes - do you know, why it's more reliable manual than Automatic. Doesn't it meter the same way?

Mako2011 said:
I'd like to know that rather than get a shutter speed that's not really reliable. Pros and Cons

Totally agreing - even I didn't know about it until now.

Mako2011 · Oct 23, 2014

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

I don't consider it a quirk really...since showing a shutter speed in that case might send one down the wrong trail...and they should likely be in a manual mode anyways. After all, "Lo" means the RGB meter is no longer reliable for automatic exposure modes.

Click to expand...

Yes - do you know, why it's more reliable manual than Automatic. Doesn't it meter the same way?

I don't think it is more reliable in manual exposure mode. In the automatic modes "Lo" is accompanied by a flashing meter. It can't give a solution because it can't reliability meter. In manual exposure mode you still get the flashing meter saying it's unreliable, but no "Lo" because you are the one providing the exposure solutions. In manual mode no reason to keep the photographer from overriding "Lo". In the automatic modes...who's to quess how " Lo" should be overridden?

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

I'd like to know that rather than get a shutter speed that's not really reliable. Pros and Cons

Click to expand...

Totally agreing - even I didn't know about it until now.

BirgerH · Oct 23, 2014

Mako2011 said:
BirgerH said:

Mako2011 said:

I don't consider it a quirk really...since showing a shutter speed in that case might send one down the wrong trail...and they should likely be in a manual mode anyways. After all, "Lo" means the RGB meter is no longer reliable for automatic exposure modes.

Click to expand...

Yes - do you know, why it's more reliable manual than Automatic. Doesn't it meter the same way?

Click to expand...

I don't think it is more reliable in manual exposure mode. In the automatic modes "Lo" is accompanied by a flashing meter. It can't give a solution because it can't reliability meter. In manual exposure mode you still get the flashing meter saying it's unreliable, but no "Lo" because you are the one providing the exposure solutions. In manual mode no reason to keep the photographer from overriding "Lo". In the automatic modes...who's to quess how " Lo" should be overridden?

I see - thank you Mako.

No further questions

Mako2011 said:
Mako2011 said:

Mako2011 said:

I'd like to know that rather than get a shutter speed that's not really reliable. Pros and Cons

Click to expand...

Totally agreing - even I didn't know about it until now.

Click to expand...

MRM4350 · Oct 24, 2014

Georgios said:
In page 255 of the Nikon D90 manual says about the 'Lo' indication: 'Subject too dark; photo will be underexposed.' To be clear again, either in Aperture priority or Manual the ISO stays at 200 and the aperture at 2.8. I focus with the centre focus point at the same subject indoors. The light is artificial and unchanged. Using Manual mode I will obtain proper exposure, the scale in the viewfinder is at 0, at shutter speed of 8''. I should expect in Aperture priority with the same 2.8 aperture the meter to show 8'' for the proper exposure. The D90 can achieve proper exposure using shutter speed of 8'' (8 seconds). I still can not understand why it shows 'Lo'. Up to the limit of 30'' it has plenty of speed range to achieve proper exposure. Does this mean that I can not use Aperture priority mode for low light (over 1'') conditions? Is Manual mode my only choice for proper exposure in low light conditions?

The meter scale at "0" (center) does not mean "proper exposure", it means that what you are metering will be properly exposed if it is a zone 5 tone. For example, you wouldn't center the meter if your metered area was white, or black. This is why cameras have exposure compensation in the 'auto' modes (S, A, and P).

--
Michael
http://www.flickr.com/photos/c36sailor/

'Lo' indication at low light conditions.

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