Pro Low Light Mode

alexisgreat

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Is this mode any good for starry sky night time photography? I'm going up into the Poconos this weekend and I want to take pictures of the Milky Way which is clearly visible from there. I've read that you need ISO 3200 to get a clear shot of it, and Pro Low Light Mode seems like the only way to get clear ISO 3200 shots with the HS series, would this be a good choice? I know it stacks pictures so maybe this would increase the signal to noise (SNR) ratio and help bring out the Milky Way?

--
https://supermanalexthegreat.shutterfly.com/
 
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Is this mode any good for starry sky night time photography? I'm going up into the Poconos this weekend and I want to take pictures of the Milky Way which is clearly visible from there. I've read that you need ISO 3200 to get a clear shot of it, and Pro Low Light Mode seems like the only way to get clear ISO 3200 shots with the HS series, would this be a good choice? I know it stacks pictures so maybe this would increase the signal to noise (SNR) ratio and help bring out the Milky Way?
Hi Alex :-)

The HS50EXR Pro Low Light uses the EXR : SN Sensor Mode and then Stacks 4 Images Together. . .

The Shutter Speed is included on the Last Image Frame ( Output Image Frame ) and shows the Shutter Speed in the EXIF Data but ONLY Shows the Shutter Speed of the Final Frame so you have to ADD 3-More Frame Shutter Speeds to get the ACTUAL Total Exposure Time . . .

In MY Experience this Mode has Very Similar Output Quality to a SINGLE Dialed EXR : SN Mode Shot which is ALSO Quite Clean @ ISO-3200 . . . AND Has the Advantage of a Single Exposure -
The Difference is the LONGER / TOTAL - Exposure Time BUT You're Not Really Getting a LONGER "REAL" EXPOSURE Time - You're Getting 4-Shorter Exposures STACKED . . .

I've not Experimented MUCH with Starry Sky Shots but I believe you'll run into additional Time Limits with ISO-3200 Locked In . . . 2-Seconds is about the LONGEST Exposure I can get in Dialed EXR : SN Mode . . . One of the Design Outpoints of the HS Series is it's In-Ability to Manually Select Sensor Modes in PSAM Shooting Functionality . . . It will Default to the HR Sensor Configuration even if shooting in S & M Sizes when in PASM . . . You Raw File is the Give-Away . . .

On the Good Side - The Dialed EXR : SN Mode is Very Well Engineered and WILL Select an Appropriate Shutter Speed to MATCH YOUR SELECTED Exposure Range . . . The EXR : SN Mode is un-beatable for LOW NOISE shooting on the HS50EXR . . .

Good Luck & Good Shooting with Cheers from Orion :-D
 
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Is this mode any good for starry sky night time photography? I'm going up into the Poconos this weekend and I want to take pictures of the Milky Way which is clearly visible from there. I've read that you need ISO 3200 to get a clear shot of it, and Pro Low Light Mode seems like the only way to get clear ISO 3200 shots with the HS series, would this be a good choice? I know it stacks pictures so maybe this would increase the signal to noise (SNR) ratio and help bring out the Milky Way?
Hi Alex :-)

The HS50EXR Pro Low Light uses the EXR : SN Sensor Mode and then Stacks 4 Images Together. . .

The Shutter Speed is included on the Last Image Frame ( Output Image Frame ) and shows the Shutter Speed in the EXIF Data but ONLY Shows the Shutter Speed of the Final Frame so you have to ADD 3-More Frame Shutter Speeds to get the ACTUAL Total Exposure Time . . .
I don't understand where you're going with "The Shutter Speed is included on the Last Image Frame ... but ONLY Shows the Shutter Speed of the Final Frame so you have to ADD 3-More Frame Shutter Speeds ..."

I don't have the ability to see the first three frames since all that's saved on the memory card is the combined 4 photos, and that photo appears to show a shutter speed that's equal to the 4 combined photos. Specifically, comparing Pro Low Light with Manual mode, the brightness of the photos are a match when the shutter speed and aperture are set to the same values reported in the EXIF data of the Pro Low Light photo. In this case at ISO 3200, the photos were shot at f/3.6 and a shutter speed of 1/8th sec. Any darker and the HS50 was unable to focus. So it appears that the Pro Low Light photo was produced by combining four f/3.6 1/32 sec. photos.

The single exposure photos were horribly grainy and the Pro Low Light photos were much more pleasant looking (smooth, less noise) but had less detail. Either way, I can't see how the HS50 will be able to produce anything at ISO 3200 that won't be a Milky Way Smoothie.

PhotographyLife's article on shooting the Milky Way indicates that the HS50 isn't really up to the task from this description of what was needed for their pretty nice Milky Way image. It has several other tips for getting a good Milky Way photo. (spoiler: One is USE A TRIPOD!!!) :
If you have a fast lens and a camera that can handle high ISO well, then you will surely be able to capture the Milky Way in its full glory. For example, the first image in this article was captured using the Nikon D3s and 24mm f/1.4G lens at f/1.4, ISO 1600, 20 second long exposure. If I wanted to keep the length of the exposure the same and used a slower lens, say f/2.8 (two stops slower), I would have to increase my camera ISO from 1600 to 6400, which is pretty grainy for my taste.
http://photographylife.com/how-to-photograph-the-milky-way
 
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Is this mode any good for starry sky night time photography? I'm going up into the Poconos this weekend and I want to take pictures of the Milky Way which is clearly visible from there. I've read that you need ISO 3200 to get a clear shot of it, and Pro Low Light Mode seems like the only way to get clear ISO 3200 shots with the HS series, would this be a good choice? I know it stacks pictures so maybe this would increase the signal to noise (SNR) ratio and help bring out the Milky Way?
Hi Alex :-)

The HS50EXR Pro Low Light uses the EXR : SN Sensor Mode and then Stacks 4 Images Together. . .

The Shutter Speed is included on the Last Image Frame ( Output Image Frame ) and shows the Shutter Speed in the EXIF Data but ONLY Shows the Shutter Speed of the Final Frame so you have to ADD 3-More Frame Shutter Speeds to get the ACTUAL Total Exposure Time . . .
I don't understand where you're going with "The Shutter Speed is included on the Last Image Frame ... but ONLY Shows the Shutter Speed of the Final Frame so you have to ADD 3-More Frame Shutter Speeds ..."
If you Select Pro Low Light mode and Shoot a Picture the HS50EXR will Shoot 4-Images . . .
The Image you get will show the Shutter Speed . . . That Number Won't Be the TOTAL Exposure Time ( Total Elapsed Time from the 1st Image through & including the 4th & Final Image . . .

Try it and Time It & Compare OVER-ALL Elapsed Time . . .
I don't have the ability to see the first three frames since all that's saved on the memory card is the combined 4 photos, and that photo appears to show a shutter speed that's equal to the 4 combined photos. Specifically, comparing Pro Low Light with Manual mode, the brightness of the photos are a match when the shutter speed and aperture are set to the same values reported in the EXIF data of the Pro Low Light photo. In this case at ISO 3200, the photos were shot at f/3.6 and a shutter speed of 1/8th sec. Any darker and the HS50 was unable to focus. So it appears that the Pro Low Light photo was produced by combining four f/3.6 1/32 sec. photos.
Manual Mode will use the HS Style Sensor Mode which uses the Standard or Small Pixel-Site Size. . .
Not the Double-Sized Pixel-Sites of the EXR : SN Mode ( Lower Noise at Higher ISO Speeds )
The single exposure photos were horribly grainy and the Pro Low Light photos were much more pleasant looking (smooth, less noise) but had less detail. Either way, I can't see how the HS50 will be able to produce anything at ISO 3200 that won't be a Milky Way Smoothie.
That's likely because you can't make yourself use the Dialed EXR : SN Mode which is a Semi-Automatic Mode and Doesn't Allow User Selection of Aperture or Shutter Speed ( Except via the Exposure Compensation where you can effect the Degree of Exposure and will change Shutter Sp. )

Unfortunately the HS50EXR has NO-Support for Selecting the EXR : SN Mode in PASM Modes and MANY Shooters Wouldn't "Lower" themselves to Use the Dialed EXR : SN Mode . . . Unfortunately this is the ONLY Way to LOCK-IN the EXR : SN Sensor Mode which = High Sensitivity & Low Noise . . .

The HS50EXR WILL Shoot CLEAN ISO-3200 but ONLY in EXR : SN Mode . . . Unfortunate but True.

Here's a ISO-3200 Example . . .


Shoot using the Dialed EXR : SN Mode . . .
PhotographyLife's article on shooting the Milky Way indicates that the HS50 isn't really up to the task from this description of what was needed for their pretty nice Milky Way image. It has several other tips for getting a good Milky Way photo. (spoiler: One is USE A TRIPOD!!!) :
Tripods are a BASIC for Most Forms of Astral-Photography - I do however have Several Decent HS50EXR Moon Shots that are Hand-Held but the Moon is a BRIGHT Subject / Astral Exception.
If you have a fast lens and a camera that can handle high ISO well, then you will surely be able to capture the Milky Way in its full glory. For example, the first image in this article was captured using the Nikon D3s and 24mm f/1.4G lens at f/1.4, ISO 1600, 20 second long exposure. If I wanted to keep the length of the exposure the same and used a slower lens, say f/2.8 (two stops slower), I would have to increase my camera ISO from 1600 to 6400, which is pretty grainy for my taste.
Good Shooting & Cheers from Orion :-)
 
Is this mode any good for starry sky night time photography? I'm going up into the Poconos this weekend and I want to take pictures of the Milky Way which is clearly visible from there. I've read that you need ISO 3200 to get a clear shot of it, and Pro Low Light Mode seems like the only way to get clear ISO 3200 shots with the HS series, would this be a good choice? I know it stacks pictures so maybe this would increase the signal to noise (SNR) ratio and help bring out the Milky Way?
Hi Alex :-)

The HS50EXR Pro Low Light uses the EXR : SN Sensor Mode and then Stacks 4 Images Together. . .

The Shutter Speed is included on the Last Image Frame ( Output Image Frame ) and shows the Shutter Speed in the EXIF Data but ONLY Shows the Shutter Speed of the Final Frame so you have to ADD 3-More Frame Shutter Speeds to get the ACTUAL Total Exposure Time . . .
I don't understand where you're going with "The Shutter Speed is included on the Last Image Frame ... but ONLY Shows the Shutter Speed of the Final Frame so you have to ADD 3-More Frame Shutter Speeds ..."
If you Select Pro Low Light mode and Shoot a Picture the HS50EXR will Shoot 4-Images . . .
The Image you get will show the Shutter Speed . . . That Number Won't Be the TOTAL Exposure Time ( Total Elapsed Time from the 1st Image through & including the 4th & Final Image . . .

Try it and Time It & Compare OVER-ALL Elapsed Time . . .
I did. You haven't been paying attention.

.
I don't have the ability to see the first three frames since all that's saved on the memory card is the combined 4 photos, and that photo appears to show a shutter speed that's equal to the 4 combined photos. Specifically, comparing Pro Low Light with Manual mode, the brightness of the photos are a match when the shutter speed and aperture are set to the same values reported in the EXIF data of the Pro Low Light photo. In this case at ISO 3200, the photos were shot at f/3.6 and a shutter speed of 1/8th sec. Any darker and the HS50 was unable to focus. So it appears that the Pro Low Light photo was produced by combining four f/3.6 1/32 sec. photos.
Manual Mode will use the HS Style Sensor Mode which uses the Standard or Small Pixel-Site Size. . .
Not the Double-Sized Pixel-Sites of the EXR : SN Mode ( Lower Noise at Higher ISO Speeds )
Manual mode uses L, M or S size. I used M size for all of the non-Pro Low Light mode photos. You're making unwarranted assumptions, and then interjecting what this thread was NOT about. It's about using Pro Low Light mode, not EXR SN mode. Sometimes diversions just muddy the waters. Like now

.

.
The single exposure photos were horribly grainy and the Pro Low Light photos were much more pleasant looking (smooth, less noise) but had less detail. Either way, I can't see how the HS50 will be able to produce anything at ISO 3200 that won't be a Milky Way Smoothie.
That's likely because you can't make yourself use the Dialed EXR : SN Mode which is a Semi-Automatic Mode and Doesn't Allow User Selection of Aperture or Shutter Speed ( Except via the Exposure Compensation where you can effect the Degree of Exposure and will change Shutter Sp. )
I can't make myself use a different shooting mode? How arrogant. You can't make yourself stay on topic. I guess that you're still miffed that Kim didn't agree with you that moon photos were best shot using S size photos. I don't care HOW you use your HS50, it's not going to take stellar photos of the Milky Way, even where you live where there's relatively low light pollution.

.
Unfortunately the HS50EXR has NO-Support for Selecting the EXR : SN Mode in PASM Modes and MANY Shooters Wouldn't "Lower" themselves to Use the Dialed EXR : SN Mode . . . Unfortunately this is the ONLY Way to LOCK-IN the EXR : SN Sensor Mode which = High Sensitivity & Low Noise . . .
Your dismissiveness is becoming legendary. Why you are "lowering" yourself to reply to my posts is a real puzzle.

.
The HS50EXR WILL Shoot CLEAN ISO-3200 but ONLY in EXR : SN Mode . . . Unfortunate but True.

Here's a ISO-3200 Example . . .


Shoot using the Dialed EXR : SN Mode . . .
You're living in fantasyland if you think that this photo shows what you'll get if you shoot the MilkyWay using the HS50. The shutter speed at ISO 3200 was 1/25th sec.
PhotographyLife's article on shooting the Milky Way indicates that the HS50 isn't really up to the task from this description of what was needed for their pretty nice Milky Way image. It has several other tips for getting a good Milky Way photo. (spoiler: One is USE A TRIPOD!!!) :
Tripods are a BASIC for Most Forms of Astral-Photography - I do however have Several Decent HS50EXR Moon Shots that are Hand-Held but the Moon is a BRIGHT Subject / Astral Exception.
This thread is NOT about shooting BRIGHT celestial objects, water muddier. You apparently didn't read the quote that immediately followed "USE A TRIPOD" or used the link to the article that the quote came from, requoted here :
If you have a fast lens and a camera that can handle high ISO well, then you will surely be able to capture the Milky Way in its full glory. For example, the first image in this article was captured using the Nikon D3s and 24mm f/1.4G lens at f/1.4, ISO 1600, 20 second long exposure. If I wanted to keep the length of the exposure the same and used a slower lens, say f/2.8 (two stops slower), I would have to increase my camera ISO from 1600 to 6400, which is pretty grainy for my taste.
http://photographylife.com/how-to-photograph-the-milky-way

.

The D3s is one of the best low light DSLRs ever produced, and it had to use a 20 second ISO 1600 exposure at f/1.4. As much as you like the HS50's ISO 3200, its NR will almost certainly obliterate almost all of the tiny points of light which comprise the stars in the Milky Way, turning it into a smudge of light, not even faintly resembling the D3s photo which you can see either in the above article or by using this link to it :

 
I tried 3 nights ago and attempted to register the Milky Way with an x30, ISO1600 with maximum shutter time allowed with aperture f/2.0.

I could barely make out the variation in Cygnus of parts of the North American nebula - and it was barely discenable - there was no significant distinction between the dark and the area of the milky way. Stars down to about mag 4.5 or 5 were visible.

There is a good reason I use a cooled 60Da for these shots.

Apologies for being a bearaer of not so good tidings.

C
 
Hey PR, is there any way to extract the 4 subframes used to make the Pro Low Light Mode picture? I read in a review somewhere (I believe it was photographyblog.com HS50 review) that you can do this, but I dont see it in the options anywhere.
 
I guess this is a situation where one MUST bring along a camera with a large sensor (at least m 4/3 size).....I'm not even sure if the Nikon 1" sensor could handle this, could it PR?

--
https://supermanalexthegreat.shutterfly.com/
 
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To answer your question: The mode is probably good for an impression of the Milky way, but at the expense of detail. It tries to stitich the image together and individual stars may get misplaced.

It will be really bad to a a starry sky.

It's worth trying for a full moon shot.
 
Thanks Chris, this is very informative....what is the longest shutter speed on the X30 at ISO 1600....is it 2 seconds? That f/2 aperture is nice and bright. You could visually see stars down to 5th magnitude, but not capture stars that dim with the camera? The skies I will be going into will have a limiting magnitude around 6.5

And, most interestingly- you have a cooled 60Da?! Ahhh, that must be as good or better than any astronomical CCD camera..........
 
I guess this is a situation where one MUST bring along a camera with a large sensor (at least m 4/3 size).....I'm not even sure if the Nikon 1" sensor could handle this, could it PR?
It probably could using either of the fast N1 lenses (18.5mm f/1.8 and 32mm f/1.2). It also has less noise at high ISOs than the HS cameras and doesn't have Fuji's shutter speed restrictions at high ISOs. I believe that the 1" sensors are closer in size to m4/3 than they are to the HS50's 1/2" size.
 
Hey PR, is there any way to extract the 4 subframes used to make the Pro Low Light Mode picture? I read in a review somewhere (I believe it was photographyblog.com HS50 review) that you can do this, but I dont see it in the options anywhere.
I don't think that any of the 4 photos exist after the combined version is saved to the memory card. You may be thinking of the two sub-frames that are available in Fuji's RAW files. All PhotographyBlog had to say about Pro Low Light mode was this :
The Pro Low-light mode uses multi-bracketing technology, taking a series of four high sensitivity/low-noise shots in quick succession and combining them into an image with less noise than the single exposures.
http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/fujifilm_finepix_hs50exr_review/

.

If all four frames were available anywhere, it would quadruple the size of Pro Low Light photos and make life difficult for photo editing software.
 
PR, one thing I dont understand.....why is RAW limited only up to ISO 3200 with the HS50? On the HS20, I think you can shoot RAW higher than ISO 3200?
 
Maybe this is why Fuji limited exposure bracketing to 3 frames?

But Sony does provide for stacking of six full resolution images in its "pro low light" implementation- although they shouldn't be as clean as Fuji's four (or maybe just as clean?) since Fuji also bins pixels.
 
PR, one thing I dont understand.....why is RAW limited only up to ISO 3200 with the HS50? On the HS20, I think you can shoot RAW higher than ISO 3200?
No, RAW only is limited to ISO 3200 on both cameras. For JPEGs, if you go above ISO 3200, L size automatically shifts to M size and ISO 6400 automatically shifts to S size. It's no loss really, because from what I understand, above an ISO (different for each camera) analog gain isn't increased to produce higher ISOs. Instead, digital multiplication is used to get higher ISOs. So even if the RAW limit is ISO 3200, your RAW converter can digitally push the ISO higher anyway.

The drawback to doing this whether in camera or in a photo editor is a reduction in 'bit-ness' for each ISO increase. So if ISO 3200 produces 12-bit files, digitally increasing the ISO to 6400 produces 11-bit files, ISO 12800 produces 10-bit files, and so on. This reduces the dynamic range and the number of available tones, but that's probably not nearly as bad as the resulting increase in noise, especially if the exposures aren't as far to the right (histogrammically speaking) as possible. Hmm, Firefox doesn't recognize that spelling. :)
 
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Maybe this is why Fuji limited exposure bracketing to 3 frames?
No. The intended goal is to have 3 frames. Pro Low Light by design only produces 1 frame. Some of Nikon's DSLRs allow much more flexibility in the number of exposure bracketed frames. There are reasons why photographers might not mind the extra space used by saving multiple frames. They might want to feed 7 or more exposure bracketed photos into HDR software, or ...
Once upon a time—in the days when we shot film—bracketing was an insurance policy. It was a technique we learned from professional photographers, and they did it because it was their business to come back with the shot every time, no excuses. So when they faced tricky lighting conditions they'd bracket the shot; that is, they'd make two, three or more exposures below the meter reading and two, three or more above it. Most of the time they'd do it by varying the shutter speed to keep the f/stop and thus the depth of field (the zone of sharpness in front and behind the subject) constant. They could also bracket by using the camera's exposure compensation feature.

Lindsay Silverman, Nikon senior product manager, is quite succinct about his reasons for bracketing: "Once in a lifetime shots," he says. "A sunset in Venice, a graduation ceremony, a multiple flash setup down under the Brooklyn Bridge. I couldn't come back to shoot those and, with film, I couldn't see my results immediately as I now can with digital photography, so I couldn't fine tune my technique on the fly." So he'd use his best metering know-how and technique. Then, because of "the paranoia factor," he'd shoot a one-third stop exposure bracket.

Today, with digital, we see our results right away and make adjustments on the spot. Does the image look too light? Make a -1/3 exposure compensation adjustment and shoot the scene again.

These days, why bracket?

Several reasons, actually. First, because of time. Maybe the situation doesn't give us the luxury of checking our results. We've got to shoot quickly, so we set our Nikon D-SLR for auto bracketing and we've got the tricky lighting covered.

Second, for creative control. Simply, the "over" or "under" image might be the one that best captures the mood of the scene.

Third, ...
http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Learn-An...bracketing-the-creative-insurance-policy.html

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The D7100's exposure bracketing lets you select from 2 to 5 frames with steps of 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 1, 2 or 3 EV from one frame to the next. The D800 can shoot from 2 to 9 frames, but the choice of steps is reduced to 1/3, 1/2, 2/3 or 1 EV. Why most of Fuji's cameras only give you 3 bracketed frames with just a 1 EV step size between them is for Fuji to know and for us to find out. Not that we ever will ...

.
But Sony does provide for stacking of six full resolution images in its "pro low light" implementation- although they shouldn't be as clean as Fuji's four (or maybe just as clean?) since Fuji also bins pixels.
Sony? What's a Sony?
 
I like that- histogrammically speaking ;-) so does this mean that analog gain on the HS20 and HS50 is limited to ISO up to and including 3200? That would make sense, since a reduction in resolution is needed to go any higher than that.
 
Thanks Chris, this is very informative....what is the longest shutter speed on the X30 at ISO 1600....is it 2 seconds? That f/2 aperture is nice and bright. You could visually see stars down to
It is 2 seconds - the slowest shutter speed doesn't alter continuously though the ISO does have finer granularity - so you can pump up the ISO but keep 2s as the max until you hit ISTR 3200.


5th magnitude, but not capture stars that dim with the camera? The skies I will be going into will have a limiting magnitude around 6.5

And, most interestingly- you have a cooled 60Da?! Ahhh, that must be as good or better than any astronomical CCD camera..........
It's good, but I can only cool it so far - about 15C below ambient - as my cooler isn't against the sensor. A CCD has the cooler bonded to the back of the sensor usually and temperatures of 60C below ambient are possible. The 60Da has 1 big advantage though - APS-C gives you a very wide field of view - most CCDs of a reasonable price are not so big so you need to use a more expensive, much faster astrograph. For example my 60Da on a Celestron C5 with 0.6x focal reducer has gorgeous wide views - even though it's a cheap and cheerful scope. CCDs on the other hand can sustain 20+ minute exposures with ease.

C
 
I like that- histogrammically speaking ;-) so does this mean that analog gain on the HS20 and HS50 is limited to ISO up to and including 3200? That would make sense, since a reduction in resolution is needed to go any higher than that.
It's only suggestive. What's really going on under the hood is less important than the results that the HS20 and HS50 produce. DPReview is of little help since they haven't added photos from these cameras into their studio scene database. To get a sense of where they stand compared to the best available (if you have more money than me) I compared the F550 to the D4 using the old studio comparisons and the X20 with the D4s using the new studio comparisons. In both comparisons the Fujis at ISO 3200 were comparable to the Nikons at from 4 to 5 ISO stops higher (ISO 51200 to ISO 102400). I think that the HS20 and HS50 would be most similar to the F550EXR. Add at least another three stops due to the ability to use fairly inexpensive f/1.4 lenses and the Fuji P&S cameras have a 7 or 8 stop hill to climb, which is why even if the Fujis didn't link long exposures to low ISOs, they still wouldn't do very well for shooting Carl's billions and billions of faint stars. The top left F550 crop was shot using ISO 100.

5690abfb46324b4f8a8e4d743c14aa62.jpg
 
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