Will the new Zeiss wide angle lens be any good?

As a professonal optical engineer myself, I will take the bench results for the lens quality over the lens-camera combo results any day of the week.
Given the name of the hobby that's kinda, um, absurd. As a professional optical engineer, perhaps there's an optical bench testing forum around?
I'm an optical engineer too and I'm well aware of bench tests and how they work. But in the end, the point of a camera lens isn't to impress the guys with lab coats, it's to make images with a camera. And somehow the Zeiss FE 2470 keeps producing fabulous images in spite of the bench test haters - images that I like much better than what the Canon counterpart produces.
I'm pretty sure the engineers who design the lenses understand they they are creating part of a system and that what they create must perform well in that system rather than just in isolation. I'm already concerned (mostly by the Fuji forums) that we're hitting the point where it's the gear not the results that matter, that owning the right stuff is the end game, not producing art and executing a personal vision with it. Statements like the above concern me even more as it is suggested that judgement of a photographic instrument is best rendered when the image making device is out of the equation entirely.
 
As a professonal optical engineer myself, I will take the bench results for the lens quality over the lens-camera combo results any day of the week.
Given the name of the hobby that's kinda, um, absurd. As a professional optical engineer, perhaps there's an optical bench testing forum around?
I'm an optical engineer too and I'm well aware of bench tests and how they work. But in the end, the point of a camera lens isn't to impress the guys with lab coats, it's to make images with a camera. And somehow the Zeiss FE 2470 keeps producing fabulous images in spite of the bench test haters - images that I like much better than what the Canon counterpart produces.
I'm pretty sure the engineers who design the lenses understand they they are creating part of a system and that what they create must perform well in that system rather than just in isolation. I'm already concerned (mostly by the Fuji forums) that we're hitting the point where it's the gear not the results that matter, that owning the right stuff is the end game, not producing art and executing a personal vision with it. Statements like the above concern me even more as it is suggested that judgement of a photographic instrument is best rendered when the image making device is out of the equation entirely.
There are always and I mean always engineering dilemmas and compromises in every system. And for the record - what "bench" can duplicate a 36Mp sensor? What are we talking about anyhow?
 
Not similar at all: the canon is tested on a 22MP body, the Sony Zeiss on a 36. On a 36MP body it'll do very much better.
Not a whole lot different after 24Mp.
But of course the Canon is bigger and heavier - just enough to make a difference to the performance especially in the corners.
Weight nothing to do with the performance of a lens. But really? They're nearly the same weight.
Whether the trade off is important only the buyer can decide.
Yes, the tradeoff is images from the 24-70 look much better than those from the Canon. So a few ounces lighter and much nicer images.
 
Several of the test sites are pretty much aiding Canon/Nikon to make their lenses look better, by using older low res bodies for their Imatest routines. Any lens that works on an a7r just works, believe me.

Much of Canon's inventory is simply not up to scratch exactly where lenses need to be 'good enough' - in the outer frame where low res sensors let them get away with lesser performance. a7s users are even reporting some Leica M lenses are not too bad on the low demand 12Mp sensor, so that is the effect.

Sony (not Zeiss) wisely opted to make the FE 24-70 excellent in its middle range, 35-55mm, where most images are produced. It will show micro-contrast no Canon zoom lens can deliver.

'Not similar at all: the canon is tested on a 22MP body, the Sony Zeiss on a 36. On a 36MP body it'll do very much better.'

"The whole story is revealed with the (EF 24-70/4) lens mounted on the full-frame 1Ds mkIII. With the aperture set to ƒ/4, we note areas of sharpness in the center of the frame, bounded by significant corner shading, at the 24mm, 35mm and 70mm settings. At 50mm and ƒ/4, we see the same spot of sharpness as on the subframe, but it now covers a much smaller area, and there's significant softness across the rest of the full-frame image area. It's worth noting that these results were found on the third of the three lenses we tested: on the first two lenses, results were poor indeed" Oh.


If you suggest that the Canon lens would benefit from being mounted on an a7r you are mistaken - what happens is that weaknesses become more apparent compared with strong performance - so while all image data gets a leg up from the extra 22% resolution, the image centres now look so much better than the outer frame that the overall impact is weakened severely - the image goes from 'wow' to 'oh' as your eye moves outwards to the corners.

This is the experience due to 36Mp not just the a7r - when this sensor was introduced in the D800 the exact same phenomenon was observed, even Nikon issued several statements about it, including a recommended lenses list among other tips on maximising IQ. See it on p16 in this document:


..and note the absolute paucity of prime lenses they recommend, this from a huge company with a huge inventory of lenses - there are just three primes outside of the mainstay of DSLRs - telephoto usage. See also the emphasis on heavyweight pro zooms. Actually there is no Nikon 50mm lens considered 'suitable' in that list...how they must look at the FE55 with envy! Even their primes in the list, apart perhaps for the 85mm, are quite substandard from a 36Mp point of view.

Here is a terrific list of various lenses from various makers and how they go on the D800 - note how few non-tele/non-pro zoom Nikon lenses make the cut!


Note the Zeiss and Sigma lenses, among the Nikon pro zooms and teles.

If and when these crook old companies - Canon and Nikon - introduce 50Mp sensor cameras it will clearly be for the benefit of cashed up pros, not the enthusiast market Sony is providing for. As Zeiss says and I paraphrase: we don't think the big guys are making lenses good enough for the bodies they are producing.

So we have this strange situation where C/N are passing off as a great strength something that is in fact a great weakness for the great majority of their user base - inadequate under-performing prime lenses in the focal length range most often needed - loads of them, dating from last century, not even up to 20Mp in most cases. Even the new ones like the $2000 (!) 24/1.4 are poor at wider apertures, so they have not learn much, it seems.


Sony (with partner Zeiss) is now the enthusiast camera and lens maker par excellence.
 
That's great that your happy not to buy it. Personally I have it and I love it. I love the results.

Your tone seems to infer that anyone who has purchased that lens is in some way inferior, or perhaps not very smart.

What steveo23 was getting at, in case you missed his point, is that as don't own the lens and/or haven't used it, how can you talk from experience? Photography is about results, not theories and pontificating. I don't see any need for him to defend his position.

I have preordered the SEL1635Z and am really looking forward to using it. I won't be crawling all over the lens testing sites to see if other non native lenses are better. I will buy it and I will use it, and I can't wait.
 
The point that was made earlier was that the 24-70 is better than its reputation rather than it is actually a stellar lens. I would certainly agree with that. So it seems that the majority of people (like myself) who decided to buy it despite the poor reviews are pleasantly surprised by its performance. I know of at least one person who has held off buying a Sony A7 on the basis that they dont have a 'decent standard zoom' - personally I think he is missing out.
 
The point that was made earlier was that the 24-70 is better than its reputation rather than it is actually a stellar lens. I would certainly agree with that. So it seems that the majority of people (like myself) who decided to buy it despite the poor reviews are pleasantly surprised by its performance. I know of at least one person who has held off buying a Sony A7 on the basis that they dont have a 'decent standard zoom' - personally I think he is missing out.
I would agree. The actual images are quite nice and for me, they look better than the ones from it's most natural rival - the Canon 24-70 f/4. I'm not sure I'm seeing better contrast or resolution or what, but they just have a good look.
 
The point that was made earlier was that the 24-70 is better than its reputation rather than it is actually a stellar lens. I would certainly agree with that. So it seems that the majority of people (like myself) who decided to buy it despite the poor reviews are pleasantly surprised by its performance. I know of at least one person who has held off buying a Sony A7 on the basis that they dont have a 'decent standard zoom' - personally I think he is missing out.
I would agree. The actual images are quite nice and for me, they look better than the ones from it's most natural rival - the Canon 24-70 f/4. I'm not sure I'm seeing better contrast or resolution or what, but they just have a good look.
I love how people (above) make great claims about how terrible this lens is compared to the 'competition'... When in reality there is maybe ONE similar lens on the market that is better. I have the Zeiss 24-70mm and I will happily tell anyone that it is much better than my Nikon 24-70mm f2.8G and MUCH MUCH better than my Canon 24-70mm L (not II). The 24-70mm f4 IS L looks to get similar results, but seems to be considerably worse in the middle of the range, the 24-70mm f2.8 L II is a bit ahead of everything else out there.

So this is what I find funny and it doesn't just occur in cameras, take iOS v Android the same thing happens, when making comparisons they 'cherry pick', 'oh Nikon does better with their sensors' and 'Canon has a much better 24-70mm than this junk' etc etc... But then you CANNOT in anyway shape or form actually own this mythical system, because they just choose the best bits of each.

Zeiss 24-70mm is excellent, if you own an A7 series camera it is by far the best option for a midrange zoom, it doesn't really matter what everyone else has now does it? It doesn't really matter if Canon have a better lens somewhere in their range, it isn't going to help you. So for what it is, the Zeiss is excellent. Personally I wouldn't pay a lot of money for it, simply because I don't think zooms are worth a lot of money (but I do own the Zeiss, which I paid substantially less for s/h).

End of the day, only idiots with their online test charts will tell you this lens is terrible.
 
The point that was made earlier was that the 24-70 is better than its reputation rather than it is actually a stellar lens. I would certainly agree with that. So it seems that the majority of people (like myself) who decided to buy it despite the poor reviews are pleasantly surprised by its performance. I know of at least one person who has held off buying a Sony A7 on the basis that they dont have a 'decent standard zoom' - personally I think he is missing out.
I would agree. The actual images are quite nice and for me, they look better than the ones from it's most natural rival - the Canon 24-70 f/4. I'm not sure I'm seeing better contrast or resolution or what, but they just have a good look.
I love how people (above) make great claims about how terrible this lens is compared to the 'competition'... When in reality there is maybe ONE similar lens on the market that is better. I have the Zeiss 24-70mm and I will happily tell anyone that it is much better than my Nikon 24-70mm f2.8G and MUCH MUCH better than my Canon 24-70mm L (not II). The 24-70mm f4 IS L looks to get similar results, but seems to be considerably worse in the middle of the range, the 24-70mm f2.8 L II is a bit ahead of everything else out there.

So this is what I find funny and it doesn't just occur in cameras, take iOS v Android the same thing happens, when making comparisons they 'cherry pick', 'oh Nikon does better with their sensors' and 'Canon has a much better 24-70mm than this junk' etc etc... But then you CANNOT in anyway shape or form actually own this mythical system, because they just choose the best bits of each.

Zeiss 24-70mm is excellent, if you own an A7 series camera it is by far the best option for a midrange zoom, it doesn't really matter what everyone else has now does it? It doesn't really matter if Canon have a better lens somewhere in their range, it isn't going to help you. So for what it is, the Zeiss is excellent. Personally I wouldn't pay a lot of money for it, simply because I don't think zooms are worth a lot of money (but I do own the Zeiss, which I paid substantially less for s/h).

End of the day, only idiots with their online test charts will tell you this lens is terrible.
Maybe that's the reason why I asked the 'OP' (twice) if he had tried/used one (SEL2470Z) - And got no answer till now?! :)

...And I also do like mine very much and find it a great 24-70 F4 zoom, and undoubtedly better than my previous Canon equivalents/siblings! ;)

Best regards,
Pedro
 
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The point that was made earlier was that the 24-70 is better than its reputation rather than it is actually a stellar lens. I would certainly agree with that. So it seems that the majority of people (like myself) who decided to buy it despite the poor reviews are pleasantly surprised by its performance. I know of at least one person who has held off buying a Sony A7 on the basis that they dont have a 'decent standard zoom' - personally I think he is missing out.
I would agree. The actual images are quite nice and for me, they look better than the ones from it's most natural rival - the Canon 24-70 f/4. I'm not sure I'm seeing better contrast or resolution or what, but they just have a good look.
I love how people (above) make great claims about how terrible this lens is compared to the 'competition'... When in reality there is maybe ONE similar lens on the market that is better. I have the Zeiss 24-70mm and I will happily tell anyone that it is much better than my Nikon 24-70mm f2.8G and MUCH MUCH better than my Canon 24-70mm L (not II). The 24-70mm f4 IS L looks to get similar results, but seems to be considerably worse in the middle of the range, the 24-70mm f2.8 L II is a bit ahead of everything else out there.

So this is what I find funny and it doesn't just occur in cameras, take iOS v Android the same thing happens, when making comparisons they 'cherry pick', 'oh Nikon does better with their sensors' and 'Canon has a much better 24-70mm than this junk' etc etc... But then you CANNOT in anyway shape or form actually own this mythical system, because they just choose the best bits of each.

Zeiss 24-70mm is excellent, if you own an A7 series camera it is by far the best option for a midrange zoom, it doesn't really matter what everyone else has now does it? It doesn't really matter if Canon have a better lens somewhere in their range, it isn't going to help you. So for what it is, the Zeiss is excellent. Personally I wouldn't pay a lot of money for it, simply because I don't think zooms are worth a lot of money (but I do own the Zeiss, which I paid substantially less for s/h).

End of the day, only idiots with their online test charts will tell you this lens is terrible.
Exactly.

I have had the A7R for nearly a year and been managing with the 35 & 55. But I have recently decided that I really do want a zoom for general convenience. Sure it's not perfect, but the prices have dropped a bit, and likely any early QC issues in the first production runs have settled.

By this point at least I am pretty confident of what its strengths and weaknesses are, and unless I get a genuinely bad copy (the likelihood of which is usually vastly exaggerated) then I expect to be pretty happy with it.

Corner softness at 70 doesn't bother me much as it will predominantly be used for portraits at that FL. Corner softness at 24 - well I shall simply avoid that FL if the corners are going to be particularly critical, from 28 most agree it's pretty decent. I'm not going to make any heroic efforts to avoid shutter shock either, handheld with the OSS and uses I am likely to put the lens to I am not going to be getting the maximum system resolution from the combo anyway.

Nope this is going to be my general purpose & travel lens. Finally trading in my Zeiss Ikon ZM and lenses and settling into the A7R & FE lenses as my only remaining camera system.
 
Have you tried the Canon 24-70 f4 on the A7r?

I hired it, and the results were just about everywhere a bit better than the Zeiss Sony, which I own, if you pixel peep.

But I don't pixel peep, and the extra bulk, slow adapter af, weight, and cumbersomeness of adapter use meant that I'm sticking with the Zony as a zoom, and it produces nice contrasty images at normal viewing and printing sizes.
 
I am used to using the sharpest standard zoom in the world, Canon's 24-70 II so you can understand my reservations with this Sony lens. And I want a good lens since I will likely buy a high MP body to shoot alongside the a7s when an update to the A7R comes out
...You still haven't answered the (simple) question - Have you tried/used the SEL2470Z? :)

Best regards,
Pedro
Have you tried the FE 28-70?
 
I am used to using the sharpest standard zoom in the world, Canon's 24-70 II so you can understand my reservations with this Sony lens. And I want a good lens since I will likely buy a high MP body to shoot alongside the a7s when an update to the A7R comes out
...You still haven't answered the (simple) question - Have you tried/used the SEL2470Z? :)

Best regards,
Pedro
Have you tried the FE 28-70?
No, I haven't, as I don't like variable maximum aperture (zooms), specially when it goes as low as 5.6... :)

On the other hand 24mm makes quite a difference from 28mm, and at the time of purchase there was no clue about the upcoming 16-35, which is a range I need and use a lot...

Nevertheless, as far as the SEL2470Z is concerned - and after some thousands shots - I'm quite satisfied with it and definitively wouldn't trade it for their Canikon siblings, even without considering the cons of (the good) available adapters... ;)

I may change my line of FE lenses in the future trading some zooms for primes, but for different reasons, and of course, when the FE lens line will be more developed... :)

As for my comments to the OP, I like to hear/read the opinion of somebody who actually used/tried the gear - Repeating/parroting what some reviews/reviewers said about a particular piece of equipment is really not my cup of tea... :)

Best regards,
Pedro
I am not repeating or parroting anything when I say that my experience with the 28-70 on APSC has been very good.
 
I really hope so. I still dont understand why they produced that weak 24-70.
Why is the 24-70 weak?

The initial copies had QC issues, which is always the case with Sony products in the last 3-4 years,

but there were no issues after that.

It will be the same with 16-35.

Just wait for 3-4 months pr longer before you buy it.
 
Comparing Photozone's performance charts for Samsungs 20-50 kit lens vs Sony's 16-50.

The 20-50 was almost a flat line across the top all the way from 20mm to 50mm.

The 16-50 was a steeply ascending straight line starting from very low on the left (16mm) to the same high point on the right at 50mm.

I will be continuing this comparison by looking at other tst sites, if I can find the data.

In practice, I have both lenses/cameras and the 20-50 simply smokes the 16-50 just as Photozone says. The difference is really huge at the wide end.
 
Comparing Photozone's performance charts for Samsungs 20-50 kit lens vs Sony's 16-50.
Wasn't this about the new 16-35 FE lens?
So somebody sidetracked it to being about Photozone.
The 20-50 was almost a flat line across the top all the way from 20mm to 50mm.

The 16-50 was a steeply ascending straight line starting from very low on the left (16mm) to the same high point on the right at 50mm.

I will be continuing this comparison by looking at other tst sites, if I can find the data.

In practice, I have both lenses/cameras and the 20-50 simply smokes the 16-50 just as Photozone says. The difference is really huge at the wide end.
It's not to say that they don't get it right a lot of the time. PJ was being too dismissive I think. But there is a reasonable point to be taken from it - always consider the source and draw your own conclusion.

For me, Photozone is good, but I can think of some good to great lenses out there that I have used that get panned at Photozone, so they're missing something at times. I don't only rely on them, I look all over the place to get a comprehensive picture of what's going on with a lens.
Agreed. Important to me because I am one of the few who has both systems (well in the case of the Samsung, one lens/body; NX1000) I am walking around in brilliant sunlight with the 20-50 Sammy and it's not easy because of having no EVF. Looking now that I'm indoors. AF issues? Need to resolve. But got great sharp results with it before. I will be investigating this and it will take time.

I'm thinking: Great lens/ mediocre body or great body/ mediocre lens?
 
The problem with the lens is it's distortion if you're not shooting JPEG. Which if you prefer to shoot RAW for control in editing you really don't have any good option without using an adapter. Currently using LA-EA4 and my Sigma 24-70 2.8, but would prefer a good native E-mount normal zoom.
 

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