I want the M, but ...

Slightly off topic, but the EOS-M doesn't really seem to be for you. Since you already have a canon compact, have you considered high end canon compacts? The G1X Mark II and G7 X are great cameras that are versatile and have incredibly effective IS systems.
Very much on topic, I am considering the G7-X. When more on the forum get it and I can see more photos from it from forum members, it may be what I'll do. The other samples I have seen have not impressed me all that much. It's a hefty piece of change.

If the M's 22m lens would have been stabilized, that cam and I would have been great buddies. I love the images from it. They have their own look, which I really love.
When I had the EOS-M, the 22mm was almost permanently attached to the camera. Too bad canon won't make an IS version for EF-S so you can attach it via the adapter. I don't feel like the 22mm could be replaced by the Ef-S 24mm IS.

I just received the G7 X, and the lens is a little soft at the wide end using the larger apertures, this effect is more pronounced at very close macro distances. The way i'm getting around this is by using f4 when shooting things up close and relying on the IS system, which allows unnaturally long handheld pics. Other than that, I haven't found any big issues (still waiting to see how battery life is), and it feels like a very natural upgrade to my S90.
Thanks for the reply and your experience with the G7 X.

I may just ride out another year with my S95 and hope the G7 X is improved next year or something else would tick the boxes.

I have fallen in love with the M with the 22, and I just have to get over it. :)
 
A 22 2.0 would get in more light to up the shutter and a native zoom (11-22 or 18-55) would give you longer exposures due to IS to match desired exposure at low iso.

Also think of 2nd curtain flash, the slow shutter lets in more ambient light and aperture and flash power will be the flash contibutors (aperture obviously and flash for scene luminance) as at second shutter the flash will basicly function as a shutter to freeze the action.

Mind that exposure consists of three elements, shutter, aperture and scene luminance. Imho you need to pick one of those (combination also possible like 22mm and flash) to make it work for you.

Just a thought, hope it helps.

--
Cheers Mike
 
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A 22 2.0 would get in more light to up the shutter and a native zoom (11-22 or 18-55) would give you longer exposures due to IS to match desired exposure at low iso.

Also think of 2nd curtain flash, the slow shutter lets in more ambient light and aperture and flash power will be the flash contibutors (aperture obviously and flash for scene luminance) as at second shutter the flash will basicly function as a shutter to freeze the action.

Mind that exposure consists of three elements, shutter, aperture and scene luminance. Imho you need to pick one of those (combination also possible like 22mm and flash) to make it work for you.

Just a thought, hope it helps.

--
Cheers Mike
Much thanks, Mike.
 
If you have hand tremors, wouldn't you want a camera with an optical viewfinder that you could stabilize by holding against your face? (widely recommended in order to decrease camera motion) How about the Canon SL1, with, if money permits, the Canon 24mm f2.8 IS lens? The new kit lens, the 18-55 mm IS STM, is also very good and a lot less expensive. Although the SL1 is currently the smallest DSLR, it's obviously not as small as the M, but it does have a built in flash. Unfortunately, I think you may have to sacrifice some portability for optimal functionality.

Good luck!
I have considered the Sl1. As to optical viewfinder, I really do not like to use them, although I do get your point.

I have an S95 and the IS on it takes total care of me, but I would like to shoot at 1600 iso with less noise than I get from it. I'm not going to shoot raw. I just have a lot of physical problems, and actually the Fuji F30 was the perfect camera for me until I needed IS a few years back.

I haven't eliminated the G7-x, waiting to see more pics from the forum members in conditions and subjects I shoot, but I am in love with the M.
As you say your S95 IS takes care of you and stops the shake can you let us know at what shutter speed that is effective? It also sounds as if it works OK in your indoor situation except for the noise issue, can you say what settings they were so we can try to work out if the M+22 may work in those conditions?
 
Hi Rita, I'm going to go somewhat against the grain here and encourage you to try the M+22 if you really want it...you are quite right- that lens does have a distinctive and lovely look; it's relatively inexpensive, and what's the worst that can happen? You can't make friends with it and sell it on, and then at least you will have given it a try.

Here's how I use my M with the 22 and it works EXTREMELY well for stabilization. I have lengthened the strap so I can wear it cross-body, like a purse, strap on left shoulder and camera hanging on the right. (Despite my forum name I'm a lady like you, btw). The unique strap lugs on the M work perfectly for this (they swivel easily for shots in either landscape or portrait orientation, without catching or straining against the corners of the camera), and the supplied strap is soft and flexible and slides well across your clothing. When you want to take a picture, swing the camera up to eye level, tuck your elbows in firmly against your sides, push it away from you body to make the strap taut (as one of the earlier posters also mentioned), and fire using the touchscreen; I use mine almost always in 'focus+fire' mode. The image quality of the M is tremendous compared to typical compacts, and indoors in low light I find I can push the ISO to 800 EASILY and still get very pleasing shots; even 1600 and higher will still give you good results with the nice wide f2 aperture of the M (and it's VERY good wide open) and will give you a nice quick shutter speed. And, outdoors in good light you will have far fewer worries about camera shake using this method I'm describing, and the image quality of the M/22 in good light is truly outstanding.

I have several cameras including a fairly heavy DSLR kit, but must say that I really enjoy using the M in this "whole body" way. I don't miss the viewfinder at all. I do have an inexpensive 35mm optical viewfinder that I got on eBay years ago for an older G9, but I never really bother with it. For additional stabilization, install the Richard Franiec handgrip. I recently bought one; haven't installed it yet but expect it to be beneficial as I have used one of his grips on the G9 and it was great.

Remember that stabilized lenses are a relatively recent development and photographers of all ages, physical capabilities, etc. have been making great photos for much, much longer without this modern convenience, using a variety of clever methods for stabilization : ) For indoor shots if you have a handy surface to rest the camera on, the touch screen is really excellent and requires just the lightest touch to fire the shutter. Who wants to lug a tripod to use with a camera as small and svelte as the M? Try a small beanbag...I have one from an office store with beads inside that's used as a computer wrist support; it works like a charm as long as you have a level surface. If you try it, good luck and post some of your photos!

Catherine
 
I really want the M with 22m lens, but I have a medical issue that causes some hand and body tremors, and IS is a must.

I mostly take family get together photos in the home with low light, and I don't believe the 18-55 lens would do as well and it would not be as portable. I just love photos I see with the 22m lens.

So am I just out of luck? I can't think of any answer to this problem.

Rita
I read your reply saying that you don't like flashes but I'd really reconsider it. If your main purpose is shooting indoors low light, absolutely nothing beats a proper flash.

The other day I was in a situation that probably matches your use case. I had two cameras and one flash. One of those two cameras was an EOS M with the 22mm f2. As I didn't want my subjects to stop enjoying themselves, I didn't ask them to stop and pose for me so that required a shutter speed of at least 1/100-1/160 (still getting lots of blur), f2 and ISO 4000-6400 on my M.

On the other camera which got the flash mounted, I shot at around 1/250, f4 and ISO 200, flash bounced off the ceiling (no distracting in-your-face flashing). On top of that with the EOS M at f2 it's actually fairly hard to get everyone (or even anyone given it's horrible AF) in focus as the depth of field is thin. I think I don't have to tell you which images turned out better.
 
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If you have hand tremors, wouldn't you want a camera with an optical viewfinder that you could stabilize by holding against your face? (widely recommended in order to decrease camera motion) How about the Canon SL1, with, if money permits, the Canon 24mm f2.8 IS lens? The new kit lens, the 18-55 mm IS STM, is also very good and a lot less expensive. Although the SL1 is currently the smallest DSLR, it's obviously not as small as the M, but it does have a built in flash. Unfortunately, I think you may have to sacrifice some portability for optimal functionality.

Good luck!
I have considered the Sl1. As to optical viewfinder, I really do not like to use them, although I do get your point.

I have an S95 and the IS on it takes total care of me, but I would like to shoot at 1600 iso with less noise than I get from it. I'm not going to shoot raw. I just have a lot of physical problems, and actually the Fuji F30 was the perfect camera for me until I needed IS a few years back.

I haven't eliminated the G7-x, waiting to see more pics from the forum members in conditions and subjects I shoot, but I am in love with the M.
As you say your S95 IS takes care of you and stops the shake can you let us know at what shutter speed that is effective? It also sounds as if it works OK in your indoor situation except for the noise issue, can you say what settings they were so we can try to work out if the M+22 may work in those conditions?
It's the indoor noise the reason I want to upgrade from my s96, and I do not want to shoot Raw, which might have made my photos acceptable. It's the room where my grandson opens Christmas presents I need a cam to handle 1600 with less noise.

I have been able to do fine in Tv mode set to 1/60, Auto Iso (1600 is max), and I have set to 1/30 and have only had a little hand blur as my grandson opens presents. These shots were fine with the Fuji F30, but the 95 is not quite as good in low light, and I only need a little better handling in low light to be satisfied, I only do small prints.

Any help would be appreciated!
 
Hi Rita, I'm going to go somewhat against the grain here and encourage you to try the M+22 if you really want it...you are quite right- that lens does have a distinctive and lovely look; it's relatively inexpensive, and what's the worst that can happen? You can't make friends with it and sell it on, and then at least you will have given it a try.

Here's how I use my M with the 22 and it works EXTREMELY well for stabilization. I have lengthened the strap so I can wear it cross-body, like a purse, strap on left shoulder and camera hanging on the right. (Despite my forum name I'm a lady like you, btw). The unique strap lugs on the M work perfectly for this (they swivel easily for shots in either landscape or portrait orientation, without catching or straining against the corners of the camera), and the supplied strap is soft and flexible and slides well across your clothing. When you want to take a picture, swing the camera up to eye level, tuck your elbows in firmly against your sides, push it away from you body to make the strap taut (as one of the earlier posters also mentioned), and fire using the touchscreen; I use mine almost always in 'focus+fire' mode. The image quality of the M is tremendous compared to typical compacts, and indoors in low light I find I can push the ISO to 800 EASILY and still get very pleasing shots; even 1600 and higher will still give you good results with the nice wide f2 aperture of the M (and it's VERY good wide open) and will give you a nice quick shutter speed. And, outdoors in good light you will have far fewer worries about camera shake using this method I'm describing, and the image quality of the M/22 in good light is truly outstanding.

I have several cameras including a fairly heavy DSLR kit, but must say that I really enjoy using the M in this "whole body" way. I don't miss the viewfinder at all. I do have an inexpensive 35mm optical viewfinder that I got on eBay years ago for an older G9, but I never really bother with it. For additional stabilization, install the Richard Franiec handgrip. I recently bought one; haven't installed it yet but expect it to be beneficial as I have used one of his grips on the G9 and it was great.

Remember that stabilized lenses are a relatively recent development and photographers of all ages, physical capabilities, etc. have been making great photos for much, much longer without this modern convenience, using a variety of clever methods for stabilization : ) For indoor shots if you have a handy surface to rest the camera on, the touch screen is really excellent and requires just the lightest touch to fire the shutter. Who wants to lug a tripod to use with a camera as small and svelte as the M? Try a small beanbag...I have one from an office store with beads inside that's used as a computer wrist support; it works like a charm as long as you have a level surface. If you try it, good luck and post some of your photos!

Catherine
Catherine, it's nice to have a woman's perspective, and thanks for the indepth details of how you shoot with your M. I have body tremors as well, and they vary by the day, so I'm not sure your method would work for me, but I will definitely consider it. I really appreciate the time you put into this post to help me! Rita
 
I really want the M with 22m lens, but I have a medical issue that causes some hand and body tremors, and IS is a must.

I mostly take family get together photos in the home with low light, and I don't believe the 18-55 lens would do as well and it would not be as portable. I just love photos I see with the 22m lens.

So am I just out of luck? I can't think of any answer to this problem.

Rita
I read your reply saying that you don't like flashes but I'd really reconsider it. If your main purpose is shooting indoors low light, absolutely nothing beats a proper flash.

The other day I was in a situation that probably matches your use case. I had two cameras and one flash. One of those two cameras was an EOS M with the 22mm f2. As I didn't want my subjects to stop enjoying themselves, I didn't ask them to stop and pose for me so that required a shutter speed of at least 1/100-1/160 (still getting lots of blur), f2 and ISO 4000-6400 on my M.

On the other camera which got the flash mounted, I shot at around 1/250, f4 and ISO 200, flash bounced off the ceiling (no distracting in-your-face flashing). On top of that with the EOS M at f2 it's actually fairly hard to get everyone (or even anyone given it's horrible AF) in focus as the depth of field is thin. I think I don't have to tell you which images turned out better.
Quite agree.

Learning to use a flash so it doesn't look obvious is an art in itself, but it's the only way in many cases
 
I really want the M with 22m lens, but I have a medical issue that causes some hand and body tremors, and IS is a must.

I mostly take family get together photos in the home with low light, and I don't believe the 18-55 lens would do as well and it would not be as portable. I just love photos I see with the 22m lens.

So am I just out of luck? I can't think of any answer to this problem.

Rita
The Canon M with the 22mm lens is a fine combination for sure. You have received many good responses on how to possibly reduce tremors with it too. You might also want to take a close look at the new (just released) Pentax S-1 camera. It is on the smaller size and combined with one of the DA lens such as the DA40 or the DA35 macro would make a great combo also. Plus, it has built-in shake reduction too. I shoot with both of those DA lens and can tell you they are wonderful lens, with the DA35/2.8 macro being my favorite of the two. Best of luck in your decision.

GR
 
I really want the M with 22m lens, but I have a medical issue that causes some hand and body tremors, and IS is a must.

I mostly take family get together photos in the home with low light, and I don't believe the 18-55 lens would do as well and it would not be as portable. I just love photos I see with the 22m lens.

So am I just out of luck? I can't think of any answer to this problem.
I can

Get a Olympus instead.

all Olympus mirrorless camera's have IBIS.

That means all lenses get image stabilisation.

then mount any prime you wish to use out of the extensive m43 system and enjoy shooting.
I gave it some thought, but I want to stick with Canon if I can. Thanks for the suggestion, and I'll keep it in my back pocket.
I'll never understand brand loyalty.

There are significantly better choices offered by other manufacturers. Sony, Fuji, Olympus , Panasonic... arguably all offer far better small system cameras than Canon. In terms of image stabilization, the 5 axis IS offered by most of Olympus' s OMD series is amazing and might be just the thing to combat tremors.

Good luck to you whatever you choose.
 
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I'll never understand brand loyalty.
Let me try to help you.

Some of the things that might make you prefer one brand over another;

The image 'quality' - I use inverted comma's because I refer to the overall look - if you want consistency in your images it helps to stick to the same brand.

User interface/software. One may be used to, and or prefer, the user interface of one brand over another. Switching brands means learning a new UI and quirks, and possibly having to learn new PP software (if one uses the package which comes with the camera).

Design. This links with UI, but being used to one brands design features helps when buying a new model.

Confidence. A soft reason but a good one nonetheless. If you have had good experiences with a brand you want to stick with that brand. It's not outright loyalty but rather confidence in the brand, which leads to loyalty.

Existing products. Perhaps the OP owns some Canon lenses they can also use on the M, or a Canon flashgun? If we have bought into a system whilst some other body might be on the market which is 'better' we are locked in by the choices we've made unless we are prepared to foot the expense of a wholesale system switch (see points above also!).
 
I really want the M with 22m lens, but I have a medical issue that causes some hand and body tremors, and IS is a must.

I mostly take family get together photos in the home with low light, and I don't believe the 18-55 lens would do as well and it would not be as portable. I just love photos I see with the 22m lens.

So am I just out of luck? I can't think of any answer to this problem.
I can

Get a Olympus instead.

all Olympus mirrorless camera's have IBIS.

That means all lenses get image stabilisation.

then mount any prime you wish to use out of the extensive m43 system and enjoy shooting.
I gave it some thought, but I want to stick with Canon if I can. Thanks for the suggestion, and I'll keep it in my back pocket.
I'll never understand brand loyalty.

There are significantly better choices offered by other manufacturers. Sony, Fuji, Olympus , Panasonic... arguably all offer far better small system cameras than Canon. In terms of image stabilization, the 5 axis IS offered by most of Olympus' s OMD series is amazing and might be just the thing to combat tremors.

Good luck to you whatever you choose.
It's not brand loyalty, it's menu loyalty. I had a Sony and Fuji when I was much more well, but I had a lot of difficulty with the Sony menus and finally gave the little point and shoot to my daughter. I struggled with the Fuji F30 but finally masterd it. The s96 menus were very intuitive and I got those very easily, but my brain is much worse now than when I got the S95 four years ago.

I hate to get into more of my health issues, but besides the tremors, I had two falls in the last two years with concussions, and now have a Traumatic Brain Injury that may be progressive. The next camera I purchase might be the last one I will ever own. I need to stick with the canon menus as I do think I can handle that right now. I likely would not grasp a new menu system even with instructions.

But I really appreciate your opinion and suggestion.

It may be that a new cam is just out for me. I have thought about trying to learn to shoot in raw and process those files to get a little less noise and just make do for now. I'm heavily leaning that way, if I can learn to do that. Since the brain injury, sometimes I forget how to fold towels I have folded for 20 years, and I have little notes stuck everywhere reminding me of when to do things I have done for twenty years, as well.

Knowing I might get unable to continue taking photos, I was going to purchase a camera I could share with my son in law, otherwise I could not justify the price of a camera with my health conditions as iffy as they are.

Thanks,
Rita
 
i have been researching for hours a day, looking at every possible option with a touch screen, and I almost bought a Sony mirrorless until I found out how difficult the menus were even for enthusiasts without the cogniitive issues I have now from a brain injury.

I took some photos in Raw with my S95 and had a friend professional photographer put them through Lightroom for me to compare to the jpg rendered in the camera, to see if that would give me the little more low light capability I need to take pics of my grandson in thier dark livingroom on Christmas morning, and it didn't quite do it.

In the three weeks I started this thread, more real world photos from the G7x have come out, and I believe that is my best option.

I would like to purchase ASAP to master it by Christmas, but I also would like to knock a little off that $700 price tag.

I saw a deal on Ebay for $619 but it was from Hong Kong and I wasn't sure about doing that.

Any help on this front would be appreciated.

Again thanks for every reply in this thread, it helped me do some problem solving and each post was beneficial !!!

Happy Sunday to all!

Rita
 
What you need is off camera flash. It sounds complex, but is easy as pie. The tiny, baby EX 90 flash that comes with the M works wonderfully as a master for other Canon flashes. I have a 430 EXII that I simply sit anywhere close by, but out of sight, & bounce flash off anything. Walls, cielings, sheets of cardboard, whatever. You can take marvelous, well exposed, beautifully coloured photos at up to ISO6400 this way. Set cam to aperture mode, & ETTL pretty much does the rest. You can shoot at low shutter speeds, without blur, without IS, as the flash works as a fast shutter.
 
Just to add a little more, you can still easily shoot 1 handed, & even hold the flash in your other hand, as the M, 22mm & EX90 weigh nothing. There will be a tiny bit of noise in the background, but your subject will look great, & nearly noise free if you get it right. Just practice a bit at home first.
 
Why not olympus?
 
Why not olympus?
cuz Canon rulez!!!

I think Rita already decided on a G7 X.
I have considered many options since I last posted here, and I keep reading all the posts, on this forum, on the G7x.

I'm still undecided about what to do, and I'm running out of time to master any camera in time for Christmas, which is what I wanted it for. I may wait until next year.
 

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