Need more MP

colonel444

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Apple will release new iMac with 5120 x 2880 resolution in less than 2 weeks. It has more resolution than many current cameras. Soon cameras less than 18MP will be considered small, especially those with large sensors (m43 and above).
 
And why do you want more MP, when Apple increases display pixel count? And does it matter what sensor size it is? What is the relation and why do you "NEED" more? I don't understand this.
 
And why do you want more MP, when Apple increases display pixel count? And does it matter what sensor size it is? What is the relation and why do you "NEED" more? I don't understand this.
Less pixels means when I view the pictures in full screen mode, they won't cover the entire screen without upscaling. I don't like black rectangle around the pictures.

As to sensor size, there are arguments against large MP with small sensors, and for valid reasons. But with larger sensors, more MP should not cause noise to increase too much.
 
Apple will release new iMac with 5120 x 2880 resolution in less than 2 weeks. It has more resolution than many current cameras. Soon cameras less than 18MP will be considered small, especially those with large sensors (m43 and above).
I'm sure it will be an absolutely spectacular screen--Apple makes some beautiful stuff. Not sure this is a valid concern, however. My 22.1 MP 5D III produces a 5760 X 3840 image. 18 MP isn't all that much smaller, plus most editing software can be set to fill the screen.
 
Whats wrong with upscaling? Currently, you have downscaling.
 
The price tag is going to make your eyes water, I guarantee it. The display alone will add $1000 to $2000 to the cost of the computer.

Those of us who are not Scrooge McDuck are not in any danger of our display outgrowing the camera's max resolution.
 
If you pack more pixels into a given area five things happen :
  • noise goes up - that's just plain old physics
  • the file sizes go up - that's maths.
  • bigger files = slower cameras and more storage. That's computer science.
  • the level of real detail rarely increases, because physics doesn't work that way beyond a certain point - there are diminishing returns. Physics of light.
  • the image doesn't get better because it's got more pixels. That's composition and emotional content which decides that.
You can, incidentally, already get yourself a 24Mp or 36Mp large sensor camera. In theory they could make them 100Mp+. They be a total PITA to use in practice because of the limitations that would impose.

But I'm sure there are people like you who want more.

And I'm equally sure there are marketing people who will happily sell them to you and take your money to their bank.

Question : if pros are happy with a Nikon D4 with 16Mp, what does an amateur need more for ?

You think pros don't print or display large ?
 
If you pack more pixels into a given area five things happen :
  • noise goes up - that's just plain old physics
  • the file sizes go up - that's maths.
  • bigger files = slower cameras and more storage. That's computer science.
  • the level of real detail rarely increases, because physics doesn't work that way beyond a certain point - there are diminishing returns. Physics of light.
  • the image doesn't get better because it's got more pixels. That's composition and emotional content which decides that.
• I've seen some pretty compelling arguments that smaller pixels does not mean more noise... as long as you compare apples to apples and not 100% pixel level views, which is not how anyone will be enjoying the OP's prints. Take two images of the same scene, with two comparable gear and conditions, but one has more pixels packed in tighter...

The one with more pixels will likely have less noise when printed at the same size, or downscaled to the same size as the 'fat pixel' version.

• File size is irrelevant in 2014. You can fit 2000 full-res RAW files on a $50 card.
And he's not shooting action photography where he needs maximum FPS.

• The level of detail doesn't increase? My understanding is that many lenses outresolve what a typical 20 megapixel sensor can capture. DXO's chart seems to be saying that many lenses are projecting 24, 26, even 30 megapixels of detail. Put one of these lenses on, say, a d4s and then on a d800E, and shoot the same scene with comparable settings and processing. Will the level of detail not be better on the d800E?

• "Better gear won't make you a better photographer" is kind of a tiresome argument that contributes nothing to the discussion. Nobody said it would. But better gear certainly gives you more opportunities to make a great photo. If my sensor can't capture the dynamic range in a scene, no amount of photographic skill will fix that. So potentially great shots (that are well composed and stir the emotions) are lost because I had to pack up my camera and go home... because my gear couldn't do justice to the scene in front of me.
 
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If you pack more pixels into a given area five things happen :
  • noise goes up - that's just plain old physics
  • the file sizes go up - that's maths.
  • bigger files = slower cameras and more storage. That's computer science.
  • the level of real detail rarely increases, because physics doesn't work that way beyond a certain point - there are diminishing returns. Physics of light.
  • the image doesn't get better because it's got more pixels. That's composition and emotional content which decides that.
• I've seen some pretty compelling arguments that smaller pixels does not mean more noise... as long as you compare apples to apples and not 100% pixel level views, which is not how anyone will be enjoying the OP's prints.
Anyone looking for more megapixles is certainly someone obsessed with pixel level detail. It's exactly the reason the OP gave ( viewing at 100% on these silly extreme res screens ).

And if teh OP accepts that the image as a whole is all that matters then the OP doesn't need all this resolution in the first place, because all he wants it for is to fill the screen at 1:! pixel ratios.
The one with more pixels will likely have less noise when printed at the same size, or downscaled to the same size as the 'fat pixel' version.
Which is drivel.

At best there will be no significant difference, but the mathematics and physics don't get that - they suggest more noise at low level results in more noise at a higher level.

Put simplistically averaging more but noisier data gets you a noisier average, not a better one.

But even if we accept your argument, it's all predicated on the assumption that the person seeking the higher pixel count won;t pixel peep. And as I've said it's exactly what the OP wants to do.
• File size is irrelevant in 2014. You can fit 2000 full-res RAW files on a $50 card.
Processing it does not work that way.

Transferring the data does not work that way.

Downloading it from the cloud does not work that way.

It ALL gets slower when the files get bigger.

It's not the card that's the issue, although it's worth remembering that only the most expensive cameras tend to have fast internal and external data buses to handle fast data transfers, so the more pixels you pop in, the slower it gets.

And note that noisy images don't compress well. So you get bigger files from noisier smaller pixels as well.
And he's not shooting action photography where he needs maximum FPS.
That's not the issue. You're not thinking about complete workflow.

However, I don't actually know the OP ( or others ) don't want to shoot at high frame rates.
• The level of detail doesn't increase? My understanding is that many lenses outresolve what a typical 20 megapixel sensor can capture. DXO's chart seems to be saying that many lenses are projecting 24, 26, even 30 megapixels of detail. Put one of these lenses on, say, a d4s and then on a d800E, and shoot the same scene with comparable settings and processing. Will the level of detail not be better on the d800E?
Remember that lens tests are done in labs.

Your core assumption ( lens out-resolves sensor ) is not true. You need a combination of exceptional glass and superb technique to get the extra detail we;re talking about.

And you can't even get that at outside of specific apertures and not generally across the frame.

I've no idea why people obsess over this detail anyway. You compose and frame for image as a whole and then you worry about pixels you can't make out with the naked eye.

As for the D4 vs. D800E, I think the fact that pros were happy when Nikon did not go crazy with megapizels speaks for itself. Very few people really need those extra pixels. Amateurs are wild for them, but they're next to useless ( or worse than useless ) to most pros, if truth be told.
• "Better gear won't make you a better photographer" is kind of a tiresome argument that contributes nothing to the discussion.
It focuses photography where it should be : on images as a whole and not on irrelevant pixels.
Nobody said it would. But better gear certainly gives you more opportunities to make a great photo.
No it doesn't. Unless it comes with a travel pass and an ID that gets you places you can't get otherwise.
If my sensor can't capture the dynamic range in a scene, no amount of photographic skill will fix that.
And adding more pixels won;t increase dynamic range. So you can stop there.
So potentially great shots (that are well composed and stir the emotions) are lost because I had to pack up my camera and go home... because my gear couldn't do justice to the scene in front of me.
And because you've no idea how to shoot with the right technique to overcome these issues. :-)
 
The one with more pixels will likely have less noise when printed at the same size, or downscaled to the same size as the 'fat pixel' version.
Which is drivel.

At best there will be no significant difference, but the mathematics and physics don't get that - they suggest more noise at low level results in more noise at a higher level.

Put simplistically averaging more but noisier data gets you a noisier average, not a better one.
Look at the right-most column. Which produced the "better" image - the one with the highest ratio of detail to noise. Obviously, the 2.04 micron pixels just flat crushed the 8.2 micron pixels, and this is all at the same everything - ISO, f-stop, focal length, shutter speed, illumination, processing, etc.

Pixel%20density%20test%20results.jpg


Your core assumption ( lens out-resolves sensor ) is not true.
In many cases, it is. If it didn't teleconverters wouldn't work. But they do work. They work because the sensor is undersampling the lens.
If my sensor can't capture the dynamic range in a scene, no amount of photographic skill will fix that.
And adding more pixels won;t increase dynamic range. So you can stop there.
Fortunately, it doesn't decrease it either.



--
Lee Jay
 
If you pack more pixels into a given area five things happen :
  • noise goes up - that's just plain old physics
Then go back to school and learn physics ! :-)

What is the most important is the light received by the sensor for a given area whatever the resolution is. This is physics.

You may say that the noise is more important at pixel level but this is not what matters. What matters is the result for a given print size, same level of noise with more details.
 
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Whats wrong with upscaling? Currently, you have downscaling.
Downscaling creates sharper images at the pixel level than the original.

Upscaling creates softer image at the pixel level than the original.
 
Does say who? Downscaling creates unsharp images, like any other scaling without sharpening. It matters what software algorithm is used. Do you have that 18mp display, to know the image would look unsharper than downscaled versions? Did you ever compared this? And how much unsharp can the image become at such small devices?

Or better: How can you see even the pixel at these high pixel counts??
 
Does say who? Downscaling creates unsharp images, like any other scaling without sharpening.
Proper downscaling was assumed. By the way, the dumbest algorithm of all (nearest neighbor) creates very sharp looking images, just with a lot of artifacts.
It matters what software algorithm is used. Do you have that 18mp display, to know the image would look unsharper than downscaled versions? Did you ever compared this?
You don't need such a display to make such a comparison. Upscaling a 1280x800 image to 1920x1200 creates a softer image by far than downscaling an 18MP image to 1920x1200.
And how much unsharp can the image become at such small devices?

Or better: How can you see even the pixel at these high pixel counts??
Depends on the angle the display subtends in your field of view.
 
This is theoretical about a technology which is not available now. You should see it in action and then decide. With such high pixels on monitor and without pixel peeping, you won't see the difference, I think. The pixels are still too small to be recognized. There is no "need" for more MP, not for this reason.

And your comparison about 1280x800 (1024000 Pixels) upscaled to 1920x1200 (2304000) is a huge difference. It is more then doubling the mp from 1mp to 2.3mp. Compare this to anything upscaled to 5120x2880 (14745600 Pixels), which is 14mp only and the op speaks about 18mp would be considered small.
 
This is theoretical about a technology which is not available now. You should see it in action and then decide. With such high pixels on monitor and without pixel peeping, you won't see the difference, I think.
Did you do the math? I did.
The pixels are still too small to be recognized.
That's the whole point.
There is no "need" for more MP, not for this reason.

And your comparison about 1280x800 (1024000 Pixels) upscaled to 1920x1200 (2304000) is a huge difference. It is more then doubling the mp from 1mp to 2.3mp. Compare this to anything upscaled to 5120x2880 (14745600 Pixels), which is 14mp only and the op speaks about 18mp would be considered small.
I have two cameras - 8.2MP and 12.8MP. Both would need substantial upscaling for such a display.
 
Did you do the math? I did.
Then show me, what you got. If the pixels are too small, how can you then recognize if it is unsharp or not? And with good upscaling methodes, there is nothing unsharp about "small" upscalings.
The pixels are still too small to be recognized.
That's the whole point.
Yes. It is the point. If you can't recognize the difference, there is nothing to worry.
I have two cameras - 8.2MP and 12.8MP. Both would need substantial upscaling for such a display.
No worry. Upscaled to this display they won't look worse than your current display.

And if someone don't need such high pixel counts, why do he buy it? I mean, there is no "NEED" for higher mp camera, just because there is a display with higher mp camera out.
 
Did you do the math? I did.
Then show me, what you got. If the pixels are too small, how can you then recognize if it is unsharp or not?
It's the other way around. If the pixels are too large, how can you tell what is resolved versus what is obscured by visible pixels?
And with good upscaling methodes, there is nothing unsharp about "small" upscalings.
It's still not nearly as good as an increase in native resolution.
The pixels are still too small to be recognized.
That's the whole point.
Yes. It is the point. If you can't recognize the difference, there is nothing to worry.
The whole point is for the image, not the display, to limit what you can see in the image.
I have two cameras - 8.2MP and 12.8MP. Both would need substantial upscaling for such a display.
No worry. Upscaled to this display they won't look worse than your current display.
No, they'll look better. But an image taken with good technique of native resolution or above will look even better. And isn't that the OP's point?
And if someone don't need such high pixel counts, why do he buy it? I mean, there is no "NEED" for higher mp camera, just because there is a display with higher mp camera out.
Some of my "displays" are of much higher resolution than the hypothetical Apple display - a 30x20 print. And we've had those available for some time.
 
Anyone looking for more megapixles is certainly someone obsessed with pixel level detail. It's exactly the reason the OP gave ( viewing at 100% on these silly extreme res screens ).
Why are they silly? Have you ever actually sat down in front of, say, a high end 4k display before?

"Silly" levels of resolution today will be considered mediocre tomorrow. I'm sure someone once said 1024 x 768 monitors were silly too. Technology marches on.
The one with more pixels will likely have less noise when printed at the same size, or downscaled to the same size as the 'fat pixel' version.
Which is drivel.

At best there will be no significant difference, but the mathematics and physics don't get that - they suggest more noise at low level results in more noise at a higher level.

Put simplistically averaging more but noisier data gets you a noisier average, not a better one.
On the one hand I have a 6 page post talking Nyquist and spatial frequencies, linked to scientific papers, with sample images, and quotes from actual sensor architects.

and on the other hand I have dude casually waving his hand and saying it's drivel, yet providing no proof of any sort.

I'm gonna go with the first one. Common sense will tell you that if you add more signal than noise, then the signal-to-noise ratio improves. That's what matters, not the absolute number of noisy pixels.
• File size is irrelevant in 2014. You can fit 2000 full-res RAW files on a $50 card.
Processing it does not work that way.

Transferring the data does not work that way.

Downloading it from the cloud does not work that way.

It ALL gets slower when the files get bigger.

It's not the card that's the issue, although it's worth remembering that only the most expensive cameras tend to have fast internal and external data buses to handle fast data transfers, so the more pixels you pop in, the slower it gets.

And note that noisy images don't compress well. So you get bigger files from noisier smaller pixels as well.
Having to stitch multiple photos to achieve the desired resolution is also time-consuming.

I mean, you coulda stopped at longer processing time and almost had a reasonable argument. Downloading gigantic raws from the cloud? Who does this regularly? Larger filesize due to noisier pixels? This is a pretty desperate stretch to make a big deal out of a nonissue.
• The level of detail doesn't increase? My understanding is that many lenses outresolve what a typical 20 megapixel sensor can capture. DXO's chart seems to be saying that many lenses are projecting 24, 26, even 30 megapixels of detail. Put one of these lenses on, say, a d4s and then on a d800E, and shoot the same scene with comparable settings and processing. Will the level of detail not be better on the d800E?
Remember that lens tests are done in labs.
Why is that a mark against them? Testing done in non-controlled environments might as well be random. You need to compare apples to apples.

Even if you lack the superb technique needed to milk the maximum theoretical detail out of a shot, whatever skill you bring to the table will be rewarded more if the gear is better. Otherwise you might as well use a cell phone and say "8 megapixels is enough and the rest is skill."
As for the D4 vs. D800E, I think the fact that pros were happy when Nikon did not go crazy with megapizels speaks for itself. Very few people really need those extra pixels. Amateurs are wild for them, but they're next to useless ( or worse than useless ) to most pros, if truth be told.
How do you know what most pros use and favor? Are you a pro? What's your source?

The d4s is designed with different goals than the d800, to achieve 11 fps they kept the megapixel count down. For a professional sports photographer, maybe that's ideal. For a professional landscape photographer, maybe 36 megapixels and who-cares FPS is ideal.
Nobody said it would. But better gear certainly gives you more opportunities to make a great photo.
No it doesn't. Unless it comes with a travel pass and an ID that gets you places you can't get otherwise.
So why do you own a camera as opposed to just using the cell phone?
So potentially great shots (that are well composed and stir the emotions) are lost because I had to pack up my camera and go home... because my gear couldn't do justice to the scene in front of me.
And because you've no idea how to shoot with the right technique to overcome these issues. :-)
What's your technique if you want to create a beautiful 36 x 24 print with a 6 megapixel camera? Shooting a long exposure nature photo, where the light and moving objects will cause the scene to change quite a bit between shots?

Bettering your technique is a worthy goal but it can't overcome every possible problem. Even the most skilled race driver in the world won't turn down a better vehicle if he can get it.
 

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