New G% macs - "fastest PC"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Warren Liebman
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There are boards from MSI, Tyan, Rioworks and a couple of other makers, I think. There have also been full systems from Newisys, Boxx and others for some time now. In fact, Newisys sold some 500 machines before the official Opteron launch.
 
I would if I could find one. Checked the Dell site and didn't find
any. Are complete Opteron systems even available yet?
You've already asked that and people have already answered it. You can get machines from Boxx Tech, Newisys, Polywell, WS, APPro, Penguin, Microway, NTSI, Angstrom, etc. You can probably find a list of approved system manufacturers in AMD's site.

You can also build your own with motherboards from MSI, Tyan, Rioworks and a couple of others.

Don't expect high-volume mainstream manufacturers (like Dell, HP, etc.) to have Opterons in their desktop lineup (that's what the Athlon 64 is for). You may find them in the server list, though. From what I've read, Dell was working on some Opteron servers (which is somewhat unexpected, since they usually don't even consider anything without an Intel logo on it).
 
So tell me, how do you like iTunes, eMagic, and FinalCut Pro?

Wiseguy. If Mark says he's got everything he needs, who are you to
say he's wrong? And, why the snide attitude? He's happy. Let him be.

As for software availability, iView Media Pro, a great image
cataloging app, started first on the Mac and was recently ported to
Windows. Capture One, Neat Image, and Digital GEM will be available
for the Mac this summer.

Point is, solutions are available on both platforms, even if
they're not exactly the same at all times, and eventually most of
the best apps end up on both.
Some PC people have NO idea of what is available to Mac.I couldnt care less about BB and YP.And capture one it's available for the Mac,in case you don't know.

Clay P.
 
that OSX is based off of FreeBSD, right? I'm not saying that is
necessarily a bad thing, but I wouldn't put Apple in the innovation
camp in this regard. The street goes both ways.
And you realize that Windows XP is based on Windows 2000, which is based on Windows NT, which is based on Digital's VMS. All of this is academic. Far from Apple claiming to have invented the OS X file system and kernel, Apple prides itself on its newfound UNIX heritage. Incidentally, you can download the source to Darwin; can you do the same for Windows? Fun fact: Apple based it's new browser, Safari on open source KHTML and KJS from the KDE open source project. After they improved the code, they released their efforts back to the community. Wow! That's the spirit! When was the last time Microsoft did that? When did they ever?
 
that OSX is based off of FreeBSD, right? I'm not saying that is
necessarily a bad thing, but I wouldn't put Apple in the innovation
camp in this regard. The street goes both ways.
And you realize that Windows XP is based on Windows 2000, which is
based on Windows NT, which is based on Digital's VMS. All of this
is academic. Far from Apple claiming to have invented the OS X file
system and kernel, Apple prides itself on its newfound UNIX
heritage. Incidentally, you can download the source to Darwin; can
you do the same for Windows? Fun fact: Apple based it's new
browser, Safari on open source KHTML and KJS from the KDE open
source project. After they improved the code, they released their
efforts back to the community. Wow! That's the spirit! When was the
last time Microsoft did that? When did they ever?
--
http://www.joesimages.com
 
Benchmarks are just that, benchmarks. Compile something one way... benchmark it using program X you get one number saying Macs are the fastest machines on earth. Compile it the other, and use program Z to benchmark it and Intel will smoke the Apple every time.

What I consider most important is price/performance. And on that, PCs win every time. Apple fans, name one Apple system that provides more power per dollar spent than a PC.
 
I could be confused here but I can't see how that's useful when Apple only ships the box with 400MHz DDR.
... fastest front sidebus - ever. ...
Well, I am not actually sure about this one??
The first 64-bit desktop processor.
Wrong!!
the Worlds Fastest Personal Computer.
Wrong!!

But other than that I am sure that the G5 is a fantastic computer
and surely a lot faster than my own PC! I just do not understand
why Apple resorts to lies to do their marketing, when they have
done all their other homework right?

--
Kjeld Olesen
http://www.acapixus.dk
 
but price/performance is dependant on, you guessed it... performance.

You say it as if that takes out the subjectivity, but it doesn't at all.. Steve Jobs argued that macs are no longer 'too expensive' and that he was getting more out of the 3000 dollar mac than out of the 4000 pc
Benchmarks are just that, benchmarks. Compile something one way...
benchmark it using program X you get one number saying Macs are the
fastest machines on earth. Compile it the other, and use program Z
to benchmark it and Intel will smoke the Apple every time.

What I consider most important is price/performance. And on that,
PCs win every time. Apple fans, name one Apple system that
provides more power per dollar spent than a PC.
 
Don't expect high-volume mainstream manufacturers (like Dell, HP,
etc.) to have Opterons in their desktop lineup (that's what the
Athlon 64 is for). You may find them in the server list, though.
From what I've read, Dell was working on some Opteron servers
(which is somewhat unexpected, since they usually don't even
consider anything without an Intel logo on it).
Prior to a new AMD CPU launch there's always some speculation that Dell will strike up a deal with AMD. Funny thing is that it never happens, but Dell seems to get better prices on Intel parts...

Opteron is a pretty unique CPU though offering something that no CPU in Intel's product line can. This could force Dell into providing an AMD based server/workstation, but I hope AMD doesn't cut them any slack.

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/
 
I could be confused here but I can't see how that's useful when
Apple only ships the box with 400MHz DDR.
It's double-pumped for an effective 800MHz.

--
'May we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.' -
Dwight D. Eisenhower
 
So you've had to build your own hardware config, getting a disperate range of manufacturers kit to work together....

Let's say you manage that, where's the rest of the package to compete with the $1500 G5

SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW) as standard equipment across the line. And of course they come with three PCI expansion slots, ADC connector, DVI connector, analogue audio in, analogue audio out, optical SPDIF in, optical SPDIF out, front headphone and speaker jack and built-in Gigabit Ethernet — all as standard equipment. All models are 802.11G ready, and offer Bluetooth capability as a build-to-order option.

The Power Mac G5 ships with a FireWire 800 port and three USB 2.0 ports (plus two USB 1.1 ports on the keyboard). Gigabit Ethernet, FireWire, USB 2.0 and optical digital and analogue audio are all integrated through two bidirectional 16-bit, 800MHz HyperTransport interconnects for a maximum throughput of 3.2GB per second.

Then there's the software:

iPhoto, iMovie, iTunes, iChat, iDVD - all excellent apps

and then the 'built in' Email, web browser, address book, word processor, spreadsheet, etc etc etc without the need to buy an office suite of S/W.

So, if you added all of that standard Mac stuff to your bear-bones PC system, how much would it cost then?

G5 looks good value to me

Chris.

--
http://www.1D-images.com
[email protected]
Mac G4/iMac/iBook/iPod
 
all.. Steve Jobs argued that macs are no longer 'too expensive' and
that he was getting more out of the 3000 dollar mac than out of the
4000 pc
Well, of course you can find overpriced PCs too... But you do have the choice of paying much less to get much more... Do Apple users have that choice?

(dual Opteron without a monitor should cost approximately $2000, throw in another $1000 and you really have a state-of-the-art system!)

Personally I'll just upgrade my motherboard and RAM. I'll keep my old SCSI 10K drives and GeForce4 Ti4600 graphics card and thus I'll be able to upgrade spending less than $1500 (well, to be truthfull I have to contend with 24% VAT so $1500 is a pipedream).

Different philosophy I guess, but the statement "the world's fastest PC" was meant to trigger a discussion and create hype. It's not an accurate statement and it's deceitful to say the least.

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/
 
I think it's to early to debate about what is the fastest computer on the world.

The right time for that will be when the G5 will be available for public and everyone will be able to check that using some real programs like PhotoShop, PageMaker, SQL server,... What we know right now are just tests for which Apple payed to Verisign.

It just reminds me of the Kodak 14n camera and the Sigma SD9. I heard lots of people how superior these cameras are. Kodak because of the superior number of pixels, but Sigma because of that new Faveon technology. But when these cameras were available on the market lot's of people were just dissapointed.

For my use of editing photos Pentium III, 550, 512 Mb RIM RAM was just enough two years ago. But when I bought my new computer I was thinking what power do I really need and how much money do I intend to invest. I built a P4, 2GHz, 512 Mb RAM and this system will be just good enough for me until the new system will arrive from M$ in 2005.

How many people of you really need the power of AMD Athlon XP 3200+ or G5? How many of you will really buy the G5? Don't you think you'll just buy a Ferrari F50 for a drive on a 70 miles/hour limited highway?

But I'm shure the computer power is always needed for some of the aplications like video editing, 3D rendering, architects,... Do you have such a job? I don't.

It's quite similar to the camera world. Do you always need all the mega pixels of EOS 1Ds and speed of 1D? I do occasionally, but in less than 5% of my work. For rest of the time I just like to use 10D or D60 even not at the high resolution or RAW, but the middle resolution is just right enough for some jobs.
 
How many people of you really need the power of AMD Athlon XP 3200+
or G5? How many of you will really buy the G5? Don't you think
For processing RAW files? I definatively need something faster than my ageing Athlon XP2000+ CPU! And more memory would help PS. (I have 512MB now)

At work however my (almost) three year old 700Mhz (or was it 533?) Pentium 3 does just fine.

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/
 
Hardware/OS differences have become miniscule between Mac and PC.

However, the software availability is another matter entirely.
Depends on the needs of the user. For me, all of my software needs
are easily met on the Mac. Everything I need or want in the areas
of digital still imaging, digital video, digital music, etc. are
all available to me on the Mac. Heck, most of the cool apps are
included with the computer.
Well, I enjoy using my Mac G4 with tons of memory and hard drive space.

But.... it seems that all my favorite photoshop editing tools and plugins are so far only available for the PeeCee. So, I find myself using my old 466 Celeron for editing my photos and artistic endeavors. !!! And you know, this 4 year old Celeron isn't much slower than my Mac G4!

Although I enjoy OS X a lot and really like the general computing experience on the Mac, I am going to build my next PeeCee with an Intel P4 and just go on from there. I'll have all the plug-ins and addons that I love to use, and fewer problems with Epson drivers etc. ;-(

Ol' Don in Broken Arrow
 
Let's say you manage that,
You don't need to "manage that". There are plenty of companies selling complete systems. The difference is with a PC you can do that.
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW) as standard equipment across the line.
You can get PCs with those, too (the "Superdrive" is actually a mid-range Pioneer model). In fact, a model that can read and record all formats (CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW) costs about $250.
And
of course they come with three PCI expansion slots,
Most PC motherboards have five.
DVI connector,
Pretty much all 3D graphics cards have DVI these days, and have dual-monitor support as well (in fact, the cards used in Macs now are the same as in PCs, except in PCs you have a wider choice, because not all manufacturers have Mac drivers).
analogue audio in, analogue audio out,
optical SPDIF in, optical SPDIF out,
Standard on almost all sound cards (SP/DIF in usually only on mid- and high-end models).
built-in Gigabit Ethernet
Which not many people have use for, and therefore shouldn't be forced to pay. In PC motherboards, only server models normally include gigabit Ethernet as standard (in the rest you can add a PCI adapter if you want, it's cheap). Many home systems come with two base-100 ports, though, which is practical when you have a cable modem and a home LAN.
All models
are 802.11G ready, and offer Bluetooth capability as a
build-to-order option.
All PC models are "ready" and "offer capability", too. You just need to buy the relevant adapters; same as Macs.
iPhoto, iMovie, iTunes, iChat, iDVD - all excellent apps
Not according to some people in the "Mac Tools" forum in this very site. Lots of people complaining about them and even asking how to disable them.
and then the 'built in' Email, web browser, address book, word
processor, spreadsheet, etc etc etc without the need to buy an
office suite of S/W.
Apart from the spreadsheet, Windows has equivalent programs. Personally I don't like them much, and would prefer if they didn't include them, and charged less (because if you think those programs are "free" you're wrong; their price is simply included in the price of the system).
So, if you added all of that standard Mac stuff to your bear-bones
PC system, how much would it cost then?
Let's see how much it would cost us to build a PC system that would match the cheapest G5:

Asus A7N8X Deluxe nForce 2 motherboard (including AGP Pro 8x, dual-channel DDR400 memory controller, Dolby Digital 5.1 sound, 2 Serial ATA channels with RAID, 2 parallel ATA channels, two base-100 Ethernet ports, 5 PCI expansion slots, 2 firewire ports, 1 parallel port, 2 PS/2 ports, 1 serial port, 1 joystick port, 6 USB 2.0 ports, plus various other irrelevant connectors): $121

Athlon XP 2500+ (1.83 GHz "Barton" model, with 640 KB cache): $86

1 GB PC3200 DDR400 RAM (in two 512 MB sticks, to make use of the dual-channel memory controller on the nForce 2): $150

Pioneer DVR-A06 (high-speed multi-format CD / DVD recorder, usually comes bundled with a DVD player and basic DVD authoring software): $220.

Western Digital 120 GB (Special Edition, 8 MB cache) drive: $105

Chieftec tower case (including 450W power supply, several models and colours to choose from; there are cheaper cases from other makers, including plenty of aluminum models or even Mac look-alikes; I happen to prefer the Chieftecs): $95

Logitech Cordless MX Duo (cordless keyboard and rechargeable 7-button + wheel mouse): $70

eVGA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra (model with 128 MB, DVI, TV output and video capture): $128

I think that about covers it in the hardware front. Let's add up. 121 + 86 + 150 + 220 + 105 + 95 + 70 + 128 = $975.

That's half the price of the cheapest G5 and has four times more memory (and it's dual-channel, too), a faster (although 30% smaller) drive, a graphics card with twice the video memory, a better optical drive, more expansion slots and more ports, not to mention the wireless keyboard and 7-button wheel mouse. The only relevant things missing are the Firewire 800 port (but I don't know of a single device that uses that, so the two Firewire 400 ports should get the job done), the 56k modem (does anyone still use those?) and the gigabit Ethernet port (but you do get two base-100 ports).

You can add gigabit for $40 and a 56k fax/modem for $10, bringing the total to $1025.

Now add Windows 2000 or XP Pro ($100), which already includes a word processor, web browser, address book, e-mail, media player, fax and terminal software, disk defragmenter, sound recorder, image viewer, etc., and you reach the grand total of $1125.

Of course, you still need to buy the monitor(s), printer, scanner, tablet, speakers, etc., but none of that is included with the Macs either, and it's exaclty the same for both systems, so it doesn't introduce a price difference.

This leaves you with $875 to spend on any software that you feel you need which is standard on Macs but Windows doesn't include (there are also plenty of free alternatives, so this extra software won't necessarily cost you money). That's more than Photoshop costs. Alternatively, you can get a very nice 21" monitor for that money (or a 17" one plus a graphics tablet and a photo printer).

The PPC970 CPU does support more than 4 GB (which this PC would not), but the cheapest G5 model is limited to 4 GB anyway, so no difference there. If you really need a system with more than 4GB, you can go for a dual Opteron (add about $1500 to the price above). But most Opteron boards support 12 GB, while the most expensive G5 "only" supports 8, so it's not exactly a match (but close enough, I guess).

Of course, if you need to run some program that is Mac-only, then the Mac may be worth the extra money. But for Photoshop? I don't think so. If you already have a Mac, there's very little reason to switch to a PC, but the same is true the other way around. If you're going to upgrade, it's a matter of weighing the upgrade cost and power against the investment you already have in software.

If Apple really wants to compete with x86 / Windows, they need to lower their prices. Of course, that's a big "if". Personally, I don't think they do.
 
And you realize that Windows XP is based on Windows 2000, which is
based on Windows NT, which is based on Digital's VMS.
The first two statements are correct (Windows 2000 is NT 5, and XP is NT 5.1), the last one is not. The NT project was led by one of VMS's main designers, but it's quite a different system. It was developed from the ground up at Microsoft.
 
Apple only ships the box with 400MHz DDR.
It's double-pumped for an effective 800MHz.
DDR is already "double-pumped" (i.e., DDR400 is "double-pumped 200 MHz").

The 1GHz (or 900 MHz, or 800 MHz, depending on the G5 model) applies only to the connection between the CPU and the system controller (northbridge). Memory access is made at 400 MHz (this is mentioned in the "bandwidth specs" page in Apple's site).
 
And you realize that Windows XP is based on Windows 2000, which is
based on Windows NT, which is based on Digital's VMS.
The first two statements are correct (Windows 2000 is NT 5, and XP
is NT 5.1), the last one is not. The NT project was led by one of
VMS's main designers, but it's quite a different system. It was
developed from the ground up at Microsoft.
No it wasn't, as evidenced by the lawsuit that was settled out of court to the tune of $150 million. That Microsoft would cast about looking for something innovative, copy it, and then rebadge it as their own should come as no surprise; it is a modus operandi that Microsoft continues to demonstrate to this very day.
 

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