7D2 is here

All things considered, as far as IQ you only sacrifice about 1 stop or thereabouts going from FX to DX of the same generation. Depending on what you're shooting the other advantages may well outweigh this one stop. I shoot with both DX and FX, and there are circumstances when I prefer D300 to D3s despite at least 2 stop difference between the two. There is no magic in FX, you gain something, you give something else.
The only advantage is that under certain situations where you have to crop anyway, DX can put more pixels on the target, all else being equal. In those situations, I'd personally rather manually do my cropping in post. I have better control that way. That's why I'd never put an FX camera in crop mode, as well. I might decide to use an off-center crop later. Make sense? :-)

Take care.

--
Cheers, Craig
Follow me on Twitter @craighardingsr : Equipment in Profile - f/22 Club Member
I reserve the right to make mistakes in reasoning and logic as well as to change my mind anytime I wish. I also ask forbearance with respect to my typos. Please take a look at my gallery here at DPR.
Craig,

what do you mean "only". One stop means twice the shutter speed or half the aperture can give similar IQ. In this world of marginal differences 100% improvements in shutter speed or Aperture are huge!

Also this thing about pixels on bird. The one stop lower iso D810 pixels because they have better DR (less noise) are at least as good at detail retention as the pixels on a D7100 in all but best light and in a lab. So there is really no gain for DX same generation over FX as far as resolution is concerned.
Let's look at it this way. If I use 300/4 on FX and 200/2.8 on DX I get pretty much the same everything, FOV, DOF, right? I also let twice as much light in on DX, so I can have a stop lower ISO for the same shutter speed. So, at this point what's the main advantage of FX ?
The main advantage is that you can trade depth of field for iso when you choose. And then the IQ is better. I can't say for the birds I shoot that I often increase DOF when using a 300mm f2.8. Large near birds maybe. The main disadvantage is that the lenses are larger usually but as I said somewhere else in practice in the field the resolution of the D810 is no different to a D7100 with the same high quality glass.
Brandon, -- I think the real issue and the source of controversy here is that people look at DX and FX cameras from the perspective of "what do I get from it with a given lens". Obviously, a given lens won't behave the same. But still, which of the two systems is preferable depends highly on what you shoot and what you're trying to achieve. One size doesn't fit all circumstances. Clearly some people are entitled to feel that for their particular purposes either DX or FX works better. As Kerry remarked above, -- and I fully agree with him, -- it is preferable to have access to at least one DX and one FX camera. So, IMO it is entirely legitimate to desire a DX camera built to the same standard as the upper level FX offerings. Canon does get it, and whether one likes 7DII or not, it is hard to argue against having good options to choose from.
 
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The other trade-off that doesn't get mentioned much here is pixel density and frame rate. Look at the EOS 7D Mark II: with a 33% higher pixel density than a D810 it shoots at 10 fps. On balance I still prefer DX for wildlife shooting, but then we don't shoot in as much gloom here as you do.
 
Next time you're coming to Central Florida, let me know. I'd love to show you around some areas you might not know about.

--
Cheers, Craig
Follow me on Twitter @craighardingsr : Equipment in Profile - f/22 Club Member
I reserve the right to make mistakes in reasoning and logic as well as to change my mind anytime I wish. I also ask forbearance with respect to my typos. Please take a look at my gallery here at DPR.
Craig,

that's very good of you. Would love to get back to Florida. So many birds and great light.

Will make contact when I next plan a trip.

--
Cheers, Brandon
FlickR site
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brandon_birder/
Flickr D810 & D800 gallery
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brandon_birder/sets/72157629726734905/
Flickr D7100 gallery
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brandon_birder/sets/72157633409947519/
Flickr AFS- 80-400VR gallery
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brandon_birder/sets/72157633211093293/
FlickR Nikon1 V1 & V3 gallery
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brandon_birder/sets/72157628774050455/
 
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All things considered, as far as IQ you only sacrifice about 1 stop or thereabouts going from FX to DX of the same generation. Depending on what you're shooting the other advantages may well outweigh this one stop. I shoot with both DX and FX, and there are circumstances when I prefer D300 to D3s despite at least 2 stop difference between the two. There is no magic in FX, you gain something, you give something else.
The only advantage is that under certain situations where you have to crop anyway, DX can put more pixels on the target, all else being equal. In those situations, I'd personally rather manually do my cropping in post. I have better control that way. That's why I'd never put an FX camera in crop mode, as well. I might decide to use an off-center crop later. Make sense? :-)

Take care.
 
The other trade-off that doesn't get mentioned much here is pixel density and frame rate. Look at the EOS 7D Mark II: with a 33% higher pixel density than a D810 it shoots at 10 fps. On balance I still prefer DX for wildlife shooting, but then we don't shoot in as much gloom here as you do.
 
I see what you're saying, but I think that photo is a little beyond what I'd try to do, even with the d800. I doubt that the d300 could do as well. Dunno about the d7100. I haven't shot it enough to have a good idea as to DR parameters.

Kerry
 
may be in Nikon's court or not, but this wildlife shooter would never in a million years trade 36MP for an ancient banding-prone 20 or Nikon's 24MP for that matter just to rotary cannon some bifs or little Debbie's soccer game. Once you've had the mind boggling fur and feather detail with ultra low noise available from 36MP, you'll never climb down to tourist.
 
what exactly is it that you can't shoot really well with any of the better current model Nikon cameras? You're a very good photographer as most of us know, but you seem not to have put anything up in several years.
 
may be in Nikon's court or not, but this wildlife shooter would never in a million years trade 36MP for an ancient banding-prone 20 or Nikon's 24MP for that matter just to rotary cannon some bifs or little Debbie's soccer game. Once you've had the mind boggling fur and feather detail with ultra low noise available from 36MP, you'll never climb down to tourist.
I'm with you on that, having stepped up the the FX party. However, the masses still want the 'D400'. Surely Nikon must deliver one now after the surprise 7D2 release from Canon. Even 7D fans had given up on a sequel.
 
that photo is a little beyond what I'd try to do
Exactly. That's all I said - no miracles in that camera.
http://photography-on-the.net/forum...70a83fe961da98b20dfe&p=17162418&postcount=810

Not bad from what I have seen so far.
I'm not saying bad or not (not because I do not know, but because I do not want to). I'm saying the camera does not cope with the scene in Auto mode; so no wonders and no miracles. And that given lens flares a lot.

--
http://www.libraw.org/
 
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may be in Nikon's court or not, but this wildlife shooter would never in a million years trade 36MP for an ancient banding-prone 20 or Nikon's 24MP for that matter just to rotary cannon some bifs or little Debbie's soccer game. Once you've had the mind boggling fur and feather detail with ultra low noise available from 36MP, you'll never climb down to tourist.
I'm with you on that, having stepped up the the FX party. However, the masses still want the 'D400'. Surely Nikon must deliver one now after the surprise 7D2 release from Canon. Even 7D fans had given up on a sequel.
 
that photo is a little beyond what I'd try to do
Exactly. That's all I said - no miracles in that camera.
Okay, I understand now, thanks. TBH, I'd have been very surprised if their new sensor was hugely better than the 70d sensor. I haven't heard of Canon getting new sensor fabs or partnering with someone for sensors, so it wouldn't seem likely, at least to me, that they could do a whole lot better with an APS-C size sensor.

Kerry
 
may be in Nikon's court or not, but this wildlife shooter would never in a million years trade 36MP for an ancient banding-prone 20 or Nikon's 24MP for that matter just to rotary cannon some bifs or little Debbie's soccer game. Once you've had the mind boggling fur and feather detail with ultra low noise available from 36MP, you'll never climb down to tourist.
You spoiled a very valid point about Canon sensor quality with a slap at folks who have different photographic interests and needs. "... just to rotary cannon some bifs or little Debbie's soccer game." Really?

You specifically mention the Nikon 24MP sensor so I assume that you are referring to the D7100. The D7100 has some shortcomings, as do all cameras, but IQ is not one of them. I would wager that you would be hard pressed to distinguish between photos taken by the D7100 and the D800/810 of identical critters (you do specify feather and fur detail) in identical light and at identical FOV's.

I do not make money with a camera anymore so I can't speak for working professionals. But, if I am shooting motorsports (motorcycle mostly), sports (yes, kid's games), or bif, it is not an issue of wanting to blast away at max fps and hope for a keeper. It is an issue of doing my best with my knowledge of the subject to anticipate the action AND get the needed shots.

As an example, with soccer you want action shots with some perspective. Shots with the ball at the tip of the player's toe are static and boring. A shot with the ball in the frame with the player shortly after the kick is ideal. For this sort of action you have to anticipate the kick, get on it before it happens and then get a set of images. 4 or 5 fps is plenty for this but you want a big enough buffer to be able to shoot the 4 or 5 frame burst and then be ready for another. The D7100 fails big time at this because of its tiny buffer.

With bif, the same issue arises albeit at a slower pace.

And, yes you can take the same pictures with a D810 (with some of the same buffer and frame rate limitations) but with a significant penalty in cost, especially long lenses. You may be able to afford a set of the big Nikon teles; I cannot (and would not if I had the $$$ since I cannot justify that kind of expense).

The other issue with FF for wildlife/bif/fast sports is framing. I rented the D800 and tried it in crop mode. The idea of one camera for pretty much every photographic endeavor is very attractive. But, I found that it was harder to keep the subjects in the frame with crop view. When things are distant and moving fast, filling the viewfinder is a need not a nice to have, at least for me.

So, I do not consider DX "tourist" and I think you are doing a real disservice to folks who have legitimate uses for the crop sensor "reach" AND for adequate frame rate and buffer size/speed.
 
may be in Nikon's court or not, but this wildlife shooter would never in a million years trade 36MP for an ancient banding-prone 20 or Nikon's 24MP for that matter just to rotary cannon some bifs or little Debbie's soccer game. Once you've had the mind boggling fur and feather detail with ultra low noise available from 36MP, you'll never climb down to tourist.
I'm with you on that, having stepped up the the FX party. However, the masses still want the 'D400'. Surely Nikon must deliver one now after the surprise 7D2 release from Canon. Even 7D fans had given up on a sequel.
 
Well, there were masses, although it has probably dwindled down the years since speculations started. Maybe it's just a trickle now. Lets see how many 7D units Canon can shift after such a long wait.
 
Yeah, I got a little cranky there, sorry folks! Reading the nonstop weeping and rending of garments in here will do that. A D400 would be nice, possibly. The noise factor would have to be a good bit better than the D7100 for me to have any interest, though.
 
Good to see Craig back :^)
 

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